Tubeless – My 2p worth.

Shami Sniffer

I have recently taken the plunge and gone tubeless but not before considering all the various systems and taking advice from other riders. It seems to be one of those things you love or hate – if you have tried it.

I was concerned about the systems that put rubber between the tyre bead and the rim hook as it may make it more difficult for the tyre to locate properly. I think Jo’s, Stans and the Ghetto system are all like this. I tried a ghetto system first with an older conti explorer 2.1 tyre. My rims (717disk) are narrow and the 20” tube valve reinforcement (thick bit) made the tyre ride up in the valve area. The tyre sealed easily first time (with workshop compressor). I wanted to make sure it would go up to 50psi as a ‘test’. I know its not recommended to ride like that but just coz I needed to know. I took it for 20seconds before coating me and the workshop in dripping sticky goo. Bloody loud bang as well.
I know many people have great success with the ghetto system but I was concerned about the tyre blowing off and that’s exactly what happened at a little above average pressure.
Next I considered, if this sealing goo is so great (see all the advertising videos) then it shouldn’t be that difficult to seal without a tube or rim-strip at all. So I wrapped the rim in 2 layers of thin electrical insulation tape, just in the centre to cover the spoke holes. Then I trimmed a presta valve from an old tube and pushed it through the tape at the valve hole. Then 100ml of goo (using Jo’s white stuff) in and- hay presta, one inflated tyre. It went to 65psi and stayed there all night. Have so far done 100K on them, at 25psi and so far so good. I now have Maxxis Ardent 2.4 on the bike which also inflated fine and has been ok on some very rocky-rooty rides at 20psi. It is very easy and quick to swap tyres. Much easier than if there were tubes. Just tip the goo into the new tyre. I think this is more like the Swiss DT system?

That’s just my 2p worth. I tried a simple solution and it seems ok so far. I can’t see the need to spend 50quid on a more complicated conversion system. The bike is 600g lighter and seems to roll easier.

VWsurfbum

Shami Sniffer
did you just use insulation tape and the goo, thats it?
Interesting? *ponders trying this tonight*

BorisSpencer

I'm liking the sound of this. Seems that the area around the valve might be the most problematic, especially with shraeders.
I gave up with ghetto when I had problems getting the tyre to seat and was going to gain no weight saving.
Might have a go at the weekend.

Shami Sniffer

Thats it. Tape plus goo plus old valve.
Infact the Ardent sealed first time without goo!! I just put some in later for puncture protection.
You do need a good air supply to blow the walls out to the rim but when it seats its there good.
All those years Ive been taking extra rubber for a ride. :?

bike-a-swan

the stans bst rims work that way.

allthegearnoidea

quite a few of the ghetto threads recommend electrical tape 2x round minimum or gorilla tape (american duck tape) have to say, was Really Really tempted to give it a go that way,

Shami Sniffer

I had the tyres off this evening just to check things inside. The tape is a bit baggy over the spoke holes and I would be happier with stronger tape in there. I have some really good fibreglass tape but it is about 50mm wide. Its possible to trim it down but I may look for narrow stuff. 12mm would be good in that or duct tape, as long as the goo does not attack the adhesive.

By the way. If you don’t have a compressor how about this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7FIvAw2wC4

Barteos

It's true that almost every tyre can be used with almost every rim using just the electrical tape method, BUT...
with nothing suporting the tyre bead from underneath (rubber strip, tape, dedicated rims) you seriously increase the risk of burping and therefore limiting the range of pressure (lower end) you can play with.
The lower the pressure and the more aggressive riding, the higher the risk.

Ghetto split tube method sounds and looks dodgy but it really works. I'd give it another go

P.S. I wouldn't say that 50PSI is "just above the average". It's A LOT for a 2" tyre, even on the road.

VWsurfbum

Barteos wrote:

P.S. I wouldn't say that 50PSI is "just above the average". It's A LOT for a 2" tyre, even on the road.

No its not, 60+ on the road is the norm.

Shami Sniffer

I think there are 2 issues here. The first is actually being able to inflate the tyre (call it seating). The second is how well it resists burping and seeping (call it sealing).

On my Conti explorer tyres the beads are loose on the rim. They seated easily with a split tube (ghetto) but took some wiggling and bashing on the bare rim system. The split tube (or rimstrip) makes it easier because it narrows the rim channel and reduces the gap under the bead. I suspect if my rims were wider the conti would not seat without some form of rim strip. Soap and water defiantly helps to get the gap closed. Also the Conti explorer sidewalls were fairly porous initially but the goo quickly stopped the fizzing.
The Maxxis Ardent tyre (2.4 folding) tries to push its beads towards the rim wall making seating very easy. Also the sidewalls were not at all porous. Many people agree Maxxis work well as tubeless.

Here is a video of Stan (the maker of one system) comparing his product with other systems. Guess which comes out best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGgWYpnz ... B05A5771F5

I can twist my tyre and make it burp when the pressure is below about 20psi. It is not like hitting rock or root and I have had no burp (significant) in 150km of rough off road. I agree it may be possible to get it between 2 rocks and if my wheel ends up in a G clamp while riding then I guess it’s not my day. Hell, just throw a tube in (which I carry) if you’re having a bad day.
I must say I don’t exactly understand how you can G clamp the 2 walls together so you can see the rim channel and still have no leak. Impressive if its true. I don’t like the fact Stan wants you to drill out the rim. I suspect his valve reinforcement is too thick.

My Maxxis tyre is about 7” bead to bead when flattened so for every 1” tyre at 20psi thats roughly 140lbs trying to push the tyre radially off the rim so I don’t understand why you need to support it from below – other than to help it seat.

Barteos – I can see no gain for me to try the ghetto again, at the moment. Everything is working just fine without the agro/weight. I expect its almost impossible to re-use a closely trimmed tube. Is that right?

What do people call very low pressure? Im using about 20 in a 2.4, 25 in a 2.1. Anyone use less?

Barteos

Shami Sniffer wrote:

What do people call very low pressure? Im using about 20 in a 2.4, 25 in a 2.1. Anyone use less?

15PSI front, 18PSI rear - 29" 47mm Kris Holm rims and Ardent 2.40s (64mm WIDE 8) )
I weigh 14.5st

Shami Sniffer wrote:

I expect its almost impossible to re-use a closely trimmed tube. Is that right?

That's correct. It's certainly a drawback.

Shami Sniffer

Never heard of those so just checked them out. Wow that is different. Dont think electrical tape would seal them. So are you running ghetto in those at low pressure.?

Chunkers1980

With electric tape - how do you secure the valve? Wrap all the way then fudge in a cut valve section, or is it best to get the value in first and tape around? How much of the rubber from an old tube do you leave in around the valve?

Barteos

Shami Sniffer wrote:

Never heard of those so just checked them out. Wow that is different. Dont think electrical tape would seal them. So are you running ghetto in those at low pressure.?

They are very different indeed.
I'm a big fan of wide tyres and rims and I believe that in most of cases, improved rolling is worth the weight penalty.

I've tried two layers of Gorilla tape first, but the tyre fit was VERY loose and even when riding around the carpark at 20PSI, I've experienced some severe burping and sealant was all over the place.

A ghetto way with a 24" split tube seems to work perfectly fine.


(pictured is 2.40 Racing Ralph, currently using Ardents - more stable at low pressure)

Barteos

...

Shami Sniffer

Chunkers1980
I have only ever used presta valves. Just leave about 5mm rubber all round. Its not critical, as long as it bungs up the hole and the tyre bead clears it.
Wrap the tape around first. Push the valve through the tape. A small cut first will make it easier but you probably want some tape to get pushed in the valve hole. Then screw on the valve ring tightish(thats why I think it will only work with presta). If you use to little or weak tape it will burst at the spoke holes.

Barteos
Good man - no sus like me. I have CC carbon forks. Nice set up. Spokes look very thin.

Chunkers1980

Good man, cheers, that makes it clearer in my head what's required. Might give it a go and see what happens on a spare.

VWsurfbum

OK can someone answer this?
One of the benefits they say is less rolling resistance with tubeless, Why?
I cant see how having a tube in a tyre would create more rolling resistance?

Shami Sniffer

VWsurfbum
When I first got into cycling around 1986, some bright spark in the shop suggested solid tyres (700c) to eliminate punctures. Knowing little else I rode them for about a year. When I finally got some real tyres I was off down the road in a cloud of dust.
Rubber absorbers energy. The less rubber the less energy. A tube effectively increases the tyre thickness and its resistance to bend. There is of course a compromise with puncture resistance. Its a well known dilemma.

PS don’t ever bother with solid tyres.

VWsurfbum

Shami Sniffer I remember those tyres, did them in BMX flavour too LOL

Still going to try this out, i got the stuff so no reason not too?

Shami Sniffer

Just putting my anorak on for a moment and getting a bit theoretical. One thing that nags me(apart from err indoors) is the drag effect of all that goo in the tyre. I guess there is a certain speed (depending on viscosity) that most of the stuff will be halfway up the wrong side of the tyre having a ‘reverse water wheel’ effect. At faster speeds it must get taken over the top and then rotate with the wheel – more or less.
Assuming worst case and that all of the goo (they recommend about 150ml for big tyre-say 150g) is at 90deg vertical to the hub then that is effectively trying to pull the bike backwards with 300g for both wheels. That is worst case as a lot if it will already be evenly spread but still seems a hell of a lot.
I make that about 13 watts at 10mph. When you spin the wheel off the ground there is defiantly a drag force but it doesn’t seem as bad as the sums suggest.
Discuss.

Northwind

If it was all just sat out the back in a mass, that'd be pretty bad but I doubt it works like that at all, after all when you take a tyre off half the fluid is usually spread around the tyre anyway. I'd expect the fluid gets flung to the outside of the tyre by the reactive centrifugal force rather than gathering in one place.

jayson

I quite like the idea of tubeless but it always seems complicated to me and its heavy. I use self sealing tubes and they seem to work just aswell (for me atleast) and there's none of the associated complications and difficulties associated with tubeless setups and the whole setup doesnt weigh anymore.

Northwind

Heavy? Depends how you do it but no, it's not usually heavy. I'm tubeless on all the mtbs and not one of them weighs more than a regular setup with a lightweight (100g) tube does. Certainly a lot less than your self-sealing tube setup.

allthegearnoidea

looking into weights for tubed and tubeless, the tyres on mine (all like for like) are 100g heavier each, but you save 200g each wheel from not having the tubes! so chuck in the fluid (hutchinson) and is closer to 75g saving per wheel,
now on the bike i always carry 2 tubes with me and assosiated tools etc. in a saddle bag, so if i went tubeless i could shed a tube from that but keep one as an emergency, would still keep the tools so really doesnt look like i'd save a Mass from it, but am still really tempted to do it!
in my case, every little helps when getting me uphill hahahha!!

Northwind

Plus, not all tubeless tyres are heavier, specialized eskars frinstance are a sensible weight for a 2.3. I use them and Kenda standard tyres myself, so no weight penalty at all.

M6TTF

I converted my old bontrgar rims with gaffa tape as the bonty rim strips wouldn't fit. Had no problems at all, they inflated off a track pump. Just bought some hope hoops with crests now as the old hubs had had it. Tried the same method with the fsa rims on my 29er and couldn't get it to work though.

Shami Sniffer

So did you guys try the tubeless this weekend?

I have spent most of the day trying to get a new Maxxis Ardent to seat on another rim. It has been a complete pain in the arse but I got there in the end.
I have a good 10bar workshop air supply with big reservoir but It still would not seat. Tried soapy water, tapping banging, binding the tread with rope. Tried inflating it to 65psi with tube in and leaving for 3 hrs. Still would not seat.
I noticed that if I soaped it up most of the leaks were evenly spaced around the rim. In fact it was where the small rubber radial ‘flashing’ strips cross the bead. There were 16 per side on the Ardent and every other one had a small rubber spike attached that could have pushed it 2mm from the rim.
Under a bright light and lens I scalpeled off all the flashing and spikes near the bead. I also used fine sandpaper after the flashing was removed.

After this was done is seated easily many times and there was no leaks at all, even before the goo went in.


If you decide to try the same – don’t rush it. Expect it to take an hour. Use a very sharp modelling knife and be careful to only remove the raised bits.

milfredo

I've been riding tubles for well over five years previously always on UST and now just using lightweight Schwable (sp) RR and NN and have never hasd a puncture, apart from a 3 inch tear in the UST tyre while in the Alps.

I'm convinced that the combination of Mavic CrossMax and lightweight tyres saves weight, but it's the pucture resistance, fit and forget, that is the clincher for me. I only remove the tyres to change them for new or winter treads so a little extra faff is no bother at all.

Probably once a week we ride the route we name 6 puctures after the only non tubless rider of the group had (you guessed it) six. This was during the winter and at night and a total PITA.

Go tubless.

02gf74

when you say you don't get punctures, you still get the thorns and shards of rock/flint/grass etc in the tyre but the fluid inside seal them tyre?

milfredo

02GF74 wrote:

when you say you don't get punctures, you still get the thorns and shards of rock/flint/grass etc in the tyre but the fluid inside seal them tyre?

Yes, things still come through the tyre, more so with non UST and the gloop seals up the potrusion. Sometime you hear a hiss and ignor it and it's dissapears as the hole fills. You only really notice how many you get when changing the tyre and feeling around the inside with your fingers.

A few friends have had their non UST tyres tear and hence flatten but then we always carry a tube just in case of this.