Should Andy Gray have been sacked?

Sewinman

Keys's position looks increasingly dodgy with the latest vid of him asking Redknap if he 'smashed it' when referring to an ex-girlfriend, and then talking about Redknap 'hanging out the back of it'.

There will be hundreds of minutes of this stuff if they want to find it...standard blokey 'bant'.

sketchley

d87heaven wrote:

Whats going to happen about the 5000 ish football fans singing 'get your tits out' to the female st johns crew running across the pitch after someone collapsed? They are probably the same people clamouring for any gray to be sacked.

Well for starters they are not employed by Sky so cannot get sacked by them

Second the conditions of entry to a football ground by well lead them to be expelled from the ground or even banned from the ground. All grounds are different Wembley Stadium Ground Regulations State the following

--

9 Racial, homophobic or discriminatory abuse, chanting or harassment is strictly forbidden and will result in arrest and/or ejection from the Ground. WNSL may impose a ban from the Ground as a result.

--

The club season ticket terms often include the ability to cancel the ticket if you breech ground regulations with no refund. In most circumstances this also includes breech of ground regulation at another club, e.g. at an away fixture, so if they are spotted and identified at another club chanting abuse it could lose them their season ticket or result in them getting banned at their own club.

Finally their employer will probably have a standard clause about not bringing their company into disrepute, if they where then seen on TV for example chanting, and they had a customer facing role, salesman for example, this could lead them to lose their job.

In practice though if 5,000 are doing little will be done……

CiB

TailWindHome quoted my quote and I've stuffed it up a bit but anyway wrote:

Really? Doesn't it depend on the nature of the realtionship between the two adults? Is that really a sacking offence anyway? If it really is that bad, it took a long while for anyone to be offended by it.

Are you on a wind up here? You can't be serious?[/quote]
??

Ok. I believe that sometimes people who work together end up having relationships of a sexual nature. In those situations asking for help with the trouser contents is pretty ok by me, if the two people involved are already involved. It all depends on the nature of the relationship between the people having the banter.

Is it really really such a heinous crime to say something that someone somewhere may decide is offensive? And if someone does decide that he or she is offended, does that mean the culprit has to be sacked? In every circumstance? That leaves it open for anyone to announce that something they've heard is offensive and that that the miscreant must be sacked. What sort of way is that to get rid of staff, just on the say-so of someone who decides to find something 'offensive'?

The mic incident happened in December. If someone wasn't offended enough at the time to make an issue of it, why is it an issue now? Because it suits someone's agenda that's why.


I don't go with the idea that being 'offensive' is the worst crime on the planet. It's words, and given that there are boundaries, this stuff with Keys & Gray isn't close to that boundary. Welcome to the modern world. Can I get off? It stinks.

hmbadger

d87heaven wrote:

Whats going to happen about the 5000 ish football fans singing 'get your tits out' to the female st johns crew running across the pitch after someone collapsed? They are probably the same people clamouring for any gray to be sacked.

And where is this? I'd say that doesn;t really happen any more. I'm not saying that male football fans are at the cutting edge of equal treatment for women, but a lot better than they used to be.

The isue with Gray is that the remoarks were to a colleague FFS. IN a work environment. And to someone less senior than him.

Gazzaputt

Yes for being a self opinionated blue nose. Sexism charges are just a by in my book.

greg66_tri_v2.0

SpaceBadger wrote:

Ron Atkinson

is exactly who I was thinking about.

There's two aspects to this as I see it. First, the personal view. For all I care, Andy Gray can be the world's biggest misogynist, but as long as he keeps his views to himself and his equally misogynistic mates, and it doesn't interfere with his ability to do his so-called "job", I could not really care less. I don't subscribe to the need for thought police.

Secondly, publicising that view. Now you can make the "off-air" argument all day long, but these blokes know that they are surrounded by mikes and cameras all day long. Everything they say can be recorded and on youtube inside a minute. There's on air, off air, and in private. If you're stupid enough to repeat what you know is a generally unacceptable view other than in private, you only have yourself to blame for the consequences. Saying "but it was all a joke" doesn't wash these days; if you want to joke about something like that, do it in private.

None of this excludes the possibility that there's a mountain of this material that is routinely ignored, and that for whatever reason Gray has pissed someone off enough to cause them to dig some stuff out and publicise it at his expense, but nor does it excuse Gray, or give him much of a leg to stand on right now.

Gussio

Keys was on Talk Sport today blaming "dark forces" at work. He needs to stop digging....

"Would You Smash It" T-shirts already available on the web.

tailwindhome

CiB can't do the quotey thing so I'm tidying up for him wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

CIB wrote:

Really? Doesn't it depend on the nature of the realtionship between the two adults? Is that really a sacking offence anyway? If it really is that bad, it took a long while for anyone to be offended by it.

Are you on a wind up here? You can't be serious???

Ok. I believe that sometimes people who work together end up having relationships of a sexual nature. In those situations asking for help with the trouser contents is pretty ok by me, if the two people involved are already involved. It all depends on the nature of the relationship between the people having the banter.

True

I met my wife through work. The crotch area wasn't mentioned in the workplace though.

Did you see the clip? Did you see the girl's reaction? Did it look as if she was enjoying a bit of workplace banter?

Is it really really such a heinous crime to say something that someone somewhere may decide is offensive? And if someone does decide that he or she is offended, does that mean the culprit has to be sacked? In every circumstance? That leaves it open for anyone to announce that something they've heard is offensive and that that the miscreant must be sacked. What sort of way is that to get rid of staff, just on the say-so of someone who decides to find something 'offensive'?

You're verging on being silly now

The mic incident happened in December. If someone wasn't offended enough at the time to make an issue of it, why is it an issue now? Because it suits someone's agenda that's why.

Possibly this banter was a daily occurence in th e SKY studio and if you're a young female presenter you just have to keep quiet and put up with it

I don't go with the idea that being 'offensive' is the worst crime on the planet. It's words, and given that there are boundaries, this stuff with Keys & Gray isn't close to that boundary. Welcome to the modern world. Can I get off? It stinks.

Dicussing the ability of a women to officiate at a football match in private (though recorded) - A bit dinosaur but acceptable


The scenario with the female colleague - unacceptable and easily gross misconduct Bye Bye

Sewinman

I am hoping they replace him with Ron Burgundy.

DonDaddyD

There was a time when acknowledging differences, in a non-venomous way, could be quite funny.

CiB wrote:

Really? Doesn't it depend on the nature of the realtionship between the two adults? Is that really a sacking offence anyway? If it really is that bad, it took a long while for anyone to be offended by it.

I agree with CIB.

Ok. I believe that sometimes people who work together end up having relationships of a sexual nature. In those situations asking for help with the trouser contents is pretty ok by me, if the two people involved are already involved. It all depends on the nature of the relationship between the people having the banter.

Sometimes you don't need to be flipping the work colleague to enjoy those type of jokes. Those type of jokes probably mean its on the cards though....

Is it really really such a heinous crime to say something that someone somewhere may decide is offensive? And if someone does decide that he or she is offended, does that mean the culprit has to be sacked? In every circumstance?

Exactly, I think we need a cultural shift from the overly PC to the sensilble lets be rational/tolerant level headed bunch.

Example: Manager didn't really mean all black women are aggressive, what she really meant was that because of cultural differences some black women, their mannerisms, from certain parts of the world can be mistaken as aggressive in the eyes of the quite reserved conservative Brit. She of course, didn't quite say it like that but its all within the context of the conversation and the relationship between the two people in the conversation.

Now do I take offence, cause a shite storm in a tea cup or do I continue trying not to get caught staring at her legs? :roll: (Which could be a counter sue)

I don't go with the idea that being 'offensive' is the worst crime on the planet. It's words, and given that there are boundaries, this stuff with Keys & Gray isn't close to that boundary. Welcome to the modern world. Can I get off? It stinks.

Looking at what Ron Atkinson has done for the black footballer in the past, I do at times have a little sympathy for him. I just think he got a little overfamilar and got caught out.

Should he have gone, yes, should he come back. I won't throw my telly out the window.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

I agree with CIB.

That just means you're both wrong

EKE_38BPM

Sewinman wrote:

I am hoping they replace him with Ron Burgundy.

That could well be worth a Sky subscription.

Clever Pun

DonDaddyD wrote:

Example: Manager didn't really mean all black women are aggressive, what she really meant was that because of cultural differences some black women, their mannerisms, from certain parts of the world can be mistaken as aggressive in the eyes of the quite reserved conservative Brit. She of course, didn't quite say it like that but its all within the context of the conversation and the relationship between the two people in the conversation.

fu<k off you fu<king fu<k

waddlie

Every time I hear the word "banter" it's invariably being used by blokes to defend the fact that they're acting like pricks.

Every time such a prick is accused of bullying or inappropriate behaviour, they wheel out the defence that "it was just a joke" or "they didn't mean anything by it." It's been the same in a number of workplace bullying cases I've had to deal with.

If your conduct is questionable, it is not your intentions that determine the action taken against you, it is how that conduct is perceived by others.

DonDaddyD wrote:

Looking at what Ron Atkinson has done for the black footballer in the past, I do at times have a little sympathy for him. I just think he got a little overfamilar and got caught out.

Of Marcel, Desailly, Ron Atkinson said He's what is known in some schools as a fucking lazy thick nigger.

Doesn't sound like being "a little overfamiliar" to me.

DonDaddyD

Waddlie wrote:

Every time I hear the word "banter" it's invariably being used by blokes to defend the fact that they're acting like pricks.

Every time such a prick is accused of bullying or inappropriate behaviour, they wheel out the defence that "it was just a joke" or "they didn't mean anything by it." It's been the same in a number of workplace bullying cases I've had to deal with.

If your conduct is questionable, it is not your intentions that determine the action taken against you, it is how that conduct is perceived by others.

DonDaddyD wrote:

Looking at what Ron Atkinson has done for the black footballer in the past, I do at times have a little sympathy for him. I just think he got a little overfamilar and got caught out.

Of Marcel, Desailly, Ron Atkinson said He's what is known in some schools as a ******* lazy thick nigger.

Doesn't sound like being "a little overfamiliar" to me.

See that's the thing I just don't get about Ron Atkinson, it just seems out of place. But yeah point taken, I actually forgot the detail of what in said.

As for Andy Gray still think its a bit of an overraction. But maybe because the action doesn't affect me directly.

fu<k off you fu<king fu<k

You're better than that.

In my eyes, British people and their culture can be quite reserved. Certainly less animated than some African and Caribbean cultures.

W1

Waddlie wrote:

If your conduct is questionable, it is not your intentions that determine the action taken against you, it is how that conduct is perceived by others.

Whilst that's true, some people are absolutely pathetic "victim" attention wh*res who get off on finding offence about everything, from everyone, on behalf of just about anyone.

The world would be an increasing dull place if no-one felt they could make any sort of joke or light-hearted remark just in case someone, somewhere was offended.

Clever Pun

DonDaddyD wrote:

fu<k off you fu<king fu<k

You're better than that.

In my eyes, British people and their culture can be quite reserved. Certainly less animated than some African and Caribbean cultures.

My point albeit it lazy, was that generalising it what gets us into this mess

generalisations lead to stereotypes
stereotypes lead to casual racism
racism leads to suffering

rip that off I did

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

In my eyes, British people and their culture can be quite reserved. Certainly less animated than some African and Caribbean cultures.

Er, thats really quite subjective. Have you seen Cardiff on a Saturday night?

_Brun_

notsoblue wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

In my eyes, British people and their culture can be quite reserved. Certainly less animated than some African and Caribbean cultures.

Er, thats really quite subjective. Have you seen Cardiff on a Saturday night?

Unless all Afro-Caribbean people are actually just pissed all day every day I'm not sure that's a reasonable comparison.

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

In my eyes, British people and their culture can be quite reserved. Certainly less animated than some African and Caribbean cultures.

Er, thats really quite subjective. Have you seen Cardiff on a Saturday night?

Well that depends whether there's rugby or football on.

notsoblue

_Brun_ wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

In my eyes, British people and their culture can be quite reserved. Certainly less animated than some African and Caribbean cultures.

Er, thats really quite subjective. Have you seen Cardiff on a Saturday night?

Unless all Afro-Caribbean people are actually just pissed all day every day I'm not sure that's a reasonable comparison.

Just because British people only behave that way when they get drunk, that doesn't make them reserved...

waddlie

W1 wrote:

Waddlie wrote:

If your conduct is questionable, it is not your intentions that determine the action taken against you, it is how that conduct is perceived by others.

Whilst that's true, some people are absolutely pathetic "victim" attention wh*res who get off on finding offence about everything, from everyone, on behalf of just about anyone.

The world would be an increasing dull place if no-one felt they could make any sort of joke or light-hearted remark just in case someone, somewhere was offended.

Couldn't agree more.

DonDaddyD

Clever Pun wrote:

My point albeit it lazy, was that generalising it what gets us into this mess

No you were insulting me for the sake of being rude and that's pathetic.

In any case:

Example: Manager didn't really mean all black women are aggressive, what she really meant was that because of cultural differences some black women, their mannerisms, from certain parts of the world can be mistaken as aggressive in the eyes of the quite reserved conservative Brit. She of course, didn't quite say it like that but its all within the context of the conversation and the relationship between the two people in the conversation.


The bit I've enlarged is the key bit of that whole paragraph. Amazing that's missed as some jump to take offense, ironic given the thread.

I'm talking about a culture. A culture encompasses the common traits of a group of people having lived for a number of generations in a single area and who share and particpate in common social practices. It by definition is a generalisation.

Generalising isn't inherently bad. What is bad is when generalising is used for negative purposes, to disparage a group or single individual or when people don't allow for exceptions within their generalised view. Yes, I'm sure and have met, some very animated British people. As a whole I find the culture to be quite reserved compared to others. That isn't to say it is better or worse than others.

FFS.

Er, thats really quite subjective.

Read above. When talking about a culture, I'm not talking about individuals on a case by case basis. As a whole within their society.

Just because British people only behave that way when they get drunk, that doesn't make them reserved...

Right, when travelling Ms DDD found herself dancing for an African King, topless. He was choosing a wife, he couldn't choose her because she wasn't native. She did it as it was an honor or something (we weren't together back then or I'd have gone upside the Kings head with a spear or something). Yeah, that happens in England, right?

London, the Carnival capital. Well Nottinghill Carnival.... :roll:

And there is the high energy, high tempo bass-filled rhythmic music and the highly charged dancing that comes out of it.

Please...

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

Right, when travelling Ms DDD found herself dancing for an African King, topless.

Well thats blown my argument out of the water. :P

waddlie

DonDaddyD wrote:

Right, when travelling Ms DDD found herself dancing for an African King, topless. He was choosing a wife, he couldn't choose her because she wasn't native. She did it as it was an honor or something (we weren't together back then or I'd have gone upside the Kings head with spear or something). That happens in England.

England, the Carnival capital. Well Nottinghill Carnival.... :roll:

And there is the high energy, high tempo bass-filled rhythmic music and the highly charged dancing that comes out of it.

Please...

Seriously though, I have not got a clue what this has to do with anything?

DonDaddyD

Let me try to bring it back full circle.

There are clear differences, social, cultural, regional, age etc.

People need to be a little more tolerant of misunderstandings born out of differences when something is said, in jest, that could or might cause offence. I'm sure Ms DDD would take offence if Prince Charles asked her to dance topless for him....

Equally people need to be more aware of said differences in an effort not to cause offence.

Offence can easily be (mis)taken when taken out of context, if I was to point at much crotch to Ms DDD while an onlooker observed and then Ms DDD replied with "I'll punch you square in the face". I'm sure that would seem offensive to the onlooker.

Judgment is needed. And in some circles we would do better to temper our tongues when in earshot of those that could take offense. How many times have I taken the piss out of Ms DDD for not understanding the offside rule, or explained it to a girl in the pub using condiments - classic date conversation at Uni that.

I don't think there was anything venomous in Andy Gray's actions, I've said and done worse in my time. He was dumb for getting caught.

In other words Greg66 and CIB are correct.

suzyb

nvm

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

I don't think there was anything venomous in Andy Gray's actions, I've said and done worse in my time.

Yeah, I'm sure you have, but not on air, and not while representing your employer. :P

tailwindhome

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/9376139.stm

Keys has resigned

tailwindhome

Waddlie wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

God only knows. I can't even make sense of the 2nd draft

Seriously though, I have not got a clue what this has to do with anything?

It can be hard work sometimes