Ben Swift's power data from the TDU

incog24

I've just been having a glance over http://blog.trainingpeaks.com/2011/01/team-sky-rider-ben-swift-wins-stage-6-at-tour-down-under.html and its quite interesting. I wouldn't say that they are exceptionally high figures, although obviously the previous days have to be taken into account.

It made me consider whether tactical and bunch riding skills should have greater emphasis in my training, and whether I put too much emphasis on just building power. I wouldn't say I'm a bad bunch rider/tactician, but I bet the gulf between me and Ben is far greater than the gap in power. Maybe I should be entering every race I can whatever form I'm in and just aiming to sit in rather than challenge for points/wins.

Just a bit of a muse.

joeyhalloran

Wow, they do seem pretty low considering that he won a pro tour race! Although how light is he?

incog24

65kgs according to the Team Sky website. I can put out pretty similar wattages, but am 10kgs heavier. Still, that's not a huge difference compared to say Boardman's 450+w FTP.

P_Tucker

Christ. I've got December training rides with better numbers than that and I'm a useless 2nd cat.

incog24

I guess one thing to consider here is that he was being protected by the entirety of the team, so these numbers should probably be considered a lower limit of what's required to hang in a pro race.

Team Banana Spokesman

on stage 3 his ftp is changed from 380 to 370. why?

P_Tucker

incog24 wrote:

I guess one thing to consider here is that he was being protected by the entirety of the team, so these numbers should probably be considered a lower limit of what's required to hang in a pro race.

Sssshh, I'm trying to pretend that I could win a protour race.

jibberjim

Team Banana Spokesman wrote:

on stage 3 his ftp is changed from 380 to 370. why?

They extracted some blood for later in the season and knew the effect it would have?

Look in detail at the numbers and see how actually easy they are. 10.5 w/kg for 1 minute is a very tough isolated number that most cat 2's probably can't do comfortably outside of a race. Doing it in a race a Cat 2 should be winning any uphill finish as is typical, just go early.

incog24

P_Tucker wrote:

Sssshh, I'm trying to pretend that I could win a protour race.

Get your cheque book out and you might be in luck!

jonmack

P_Tucker wrote:

Christ. I've got December training rides with better numbers than that and I'm a useless 2nd cat.

Define better?

P_Tucker

jonmack wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

Christ. I've got December training rides with better numbers than that and I'm a useless 2nd cat.

Define better?

Higher obv, ignoring the fact that he's about 5kg lighter than me.

shockedsoshocked

Average power over a race is useless. The surges are much more important.

When Fabu won Ronde Van Vlaanderen and Roubaix last year people said the same things, ie "I could beat that average power".

You couldn't stick with him up the Muur van Geraardsbergen though....

incog24

Which is why its handy they've supplied information about normalised power and CP1

P_Tucker

I didn't mean the average, obv. I've bettered everyone of his CPs (in absolute terms, rather than per kg) this winter except for <30secs, which is presumably the sprint at the end.

jibberjim

P_Tucker wrote:

I didn't mean the average, obv. I've bettered everyone of his CPs (in absolute terms, rather than per kg) this winter except for <30secs, which is presumably the sprint at the end.

You said before in a single ride? now you're saying you've done it throughout the winter in multiple rides.

But no, none of the numbers are high, his peak minute was the last minute, and almost purely due to his sprint, he did absolutely nothing in the ride - he earnt that right by not having to do any work before. But even in that same situation I would very much doubt you could hit 80% of your peak minute power of the winter at the end of 2 hours hard riding.

P_Tucker

jibberjim wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

I didn't mean the average, obv. I've bettered everyone of his CPs (in absolute terms, rather than per kg) this winter except for <30secs, which is presumably the sprint at the end.

You said before in a single ride? now you're saying you've done it throughout the winter in multiple rides.

But no, none of the numbers are high, his peak minute was the last minute, and almost purely due to his sprint, he did absolutely nothing in the ride - he earnt that right by not having to do any work before. But even in that same situation I would very much doubt you could hit 80% of your peak minute power of the winter at the end of 2 hours hard riding.

I'm not 100% sure if in a single ride - I don't have my training data to hand in the office, but certainly not far off.

Anyway, the point is I guess that I'm surprised, as many are, how ordinary the numbers produced are (as compared to a talentless chipper like myself). I have a completely unfounded suspicion that they're being doctored before being released to the public.

ozzzyosborn206

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Average power over a race is useless. The surges are much more important.

When Fabu won Ronde Van Vlaanderen and Roubaix last year people said the same things, ie "I could beat that average power".

You couldn't stick with him up the Muur van Geraardsbergen though....

+1 i have a mate who rode for Pro Sprocket last year and he said in the bigger race he did there was lots of time when it was fairly easy just sitting in the bunch that most people could do but he said when it was on it was like no other race he has done before and that includes Belgian kermesses, interclubs and UK premier calendar races so i am guessing it is the same for these guys, also bare in mind it is early season and weight makes ALOT of difference imagine strapping 5/10kgs extra to you or your bike and trying to ride it would be lots harder

DaveyL

It's like Coggan and Allen say in The Book - the guys (and gals!) who win races pedal as little as possible, but when they do pedal, they pedal harder than anyone else.

Team Banana Spokesman

guys it just aint fair to say his numbers are low when we dont know if there are any true maximal efforts here. you could look at cancellaras numbers on a boring tour stage and they wouldnt be too great either.

look at what his reported maximal 1 hour power is - 380, (or 370 from stage 3).

at 64.9kg this is 5.855 w/kg or 5.701 w/kg. very very good.

look at the IF walues for a lot of the 'hard' bits. not very high.

to me it looks like he wasnt going very hard at all in this race. maybe he was using it for training.

P_Tucker

Team Banana Spokesman wrote:

guys it just aint fair to say his numbers are low when we dont know if there are any true maximal efforts here. you could look at cancellaras numbers on a boring tour stage and they wouldnt be too great either.

look at what his reported maximal 1 hour power is - 380, (or 370 from stage 3).

at 64.9kg this is 5.855 w/kg or 5.701 w/kg. very very good.

look at the IF walues for a lot of the 'hard' bits. not very high.

to me it looks like he wasnt going very hard at all in this race. maybe he was using it for training.

Well duh, but if I compared my numbers to a Cancellara time trial then I'd realise that I will never win a protour race. As it is I can nurture a small hope.

Oh, and is this not the stage he won?

jonmack

He won 2 and 6 didn't he?

shockedsoshocked

DaveyL wrote:

It's like Coggan and Allen say in The Book - the guys (and gals!) who win races pedal as little as possible, but when they do pedal, they pedal harder than anyone else.

Pretty much how cycle racing works!

Jeff Jones

I think the key numbers to look at are towards the end of the stages when the power rises to real pro levels.

e.g. Stage 5 (Old Willunga Hill). 13'48 @ 5.8W/kg avg/6.1W/kg normalised. A cat 2 (or even a cat 1) would struggle to do that fresh, let alone at the end of a 130km stage after 4 preceding stages.

Ditto the last couple of minutes of stage 6: 7.56W/kg. That's where it counts.

It's a good insight into how pros race too. A lot of time loafing in the bunch, then really hard at the end.

ozzzyosborn206

It's a good insight into how pros race too. A lot of time loafing in the bunch, then really hard at the end.

+1, i think some amateur races are on for much more of the time because everyone wants to show what they can do and get noticed, but once they have made it pro they have less to prove and a more dedicated job to do as part of their team

P_Tucker

So I couldn't win a pro race? Well butter my ar$e.

jibberjim

P_Tucker wrote:

So I couldn't win a pro race? Well butter my ar$e.

I think you probably could.

You'd just need a very good team to deliver you there and not have too many other good teams interested... pay off the right people.

freehub

Ben swift killed everyone at the Tameside crit, the acceleration out of corners was immense.

P_Tucker

jibberjim wrote:

P_Tucker wrote:

So I couldn't win a pro race? Well butter my ar$e.

I think you probably could.

You'd just need a very good team to deliver you there and not have too many other good teams interested... pay off the right people.

Yeah, keep the dream alive. I could probably win on the Ventoux as well.