Re-thinking Strength Training for Cycling Performance
Comments
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In the real world, Chris Boardman would not bother with a 200m sprint, given his peak power output wasn't a lot more than 850W. Even if you could attain a massive 50% increase, he would still not be competitive at masters age level sprinting.markac wrote:Here's another way to deal with the exact question I ask, presented in more real world terms:
Event - 200m Standing Start Sprint, best time wins
Athlete I - Chris Boardman I --
Yet he still managed to ride 56+km in a hour and only just had his 15 year old world 4km pursuit record (4:11) broken.0 -
markac wrote:Here's another way to deal with the exact question I ask, presented in more real world terms:
Event - 200m Standing Start Sprint, best time wins
250m is the shortest distance in track cycling. Man 1 of a team sprint and some countries run a standing lap as a championship (US, NZ and others).Athlete I - Chris Boardman I -- Trains only with standard dose of FTP and VO2max intervals
Why would a rider train FTP and VO2 for an event that takes 17-21 seconds?
Interesting fact, Boardman allegedly never cracked 900watts, never weight trained yet could sustain 429 watts for 60min. So with my peak power of 1330 watts why can I not sustain 429 watts for longer than 1min 29sec (damn I suck).Athlete II - Chris Boardman II -- Adds strength training to Chris Boardman I, in the form of two 15 minute strength training sessions per week, on a geometrically-correct bike with the chain attached to the weight stack and six exercises performed: seated push-down, standing push-down, and seated pull-up (both left and right sides)
You don't plan to market these per chance? Very impractical when the sprinter spends half their season chasing quality competition or the roadie who spends 9months of the year living out of a suitcase.
Now lets change Chris's because I think Hoy would be a better example of a standing 250m rider even though at Beijing he never got on the Staff and Kenny in the Team Sprint but essentially his standing 750m was better than three Frenchies.
Should he need to improve his standing 250m (Team Sprint), 250m from a slow roll (Match Sprint) or 250m coming in a speed (Keirin or Flying 200m) then all he needs to do is work above his 13-18 sec power which will be 200-400 below his peak power.
Question is how much above? As we see from Wingate test's an increase in peak usually leads to a drop in average power. This is also seen at Elite Competition in the flying 200m where there is a bigger drop off in speed over the 2nd 100m in the slower riders. In the women's 500m time trial where the recommendation is a all out pacing strategy all the women ride the first lap slower than they do when rider Man 1 of the Team Sprint. Even over 200 - 500m riders are pacing themselves.
So we see at World level the better riders pace themselves better (Charlie Walsh trained this with Neiwand, Hill and Ferris who were top qualifiers in 1996 Olympics in Flying 200m). So rather than use their bigger type IIx fibres they train average power targetting smaller IIx and IIa (as even the 500m TT has a small aerobic component and 1000m TT is 50% aerobic). Great example is Hoy in the Manchester World Cup in 2009 where he didn't even get out the saddle and rode 9.8 in the flying 200m.Note the strength training is only strength training and not power training, which would necessitate changes in movement velocities and %1RM. (Just looking for the strength association).
I think we have shown that strength is not associated with endurance performance (I have 430 watts on Boardman). We see it with sprinters where the AIS team S&C coach is stronger than anyone in the team yet couldn't ride a bike anywhere as fast as Bayley or Meares.Thank you...perfectly valid. I believe you can adjust the training protocols, however, to not elicit a need for that long of a recovery. It also goes, that more of this type of training should be done in the off-season for maximum build up, but shouldn't be abandoned due to reversibility issues--some type of maintenance to mitigate loss of strength gains.
You believe? I thought you were the expert on strength training. Are you suggesting this without a real understanding of strength and conditioning. I spent 5 years in the Gym working with athletes in a variety of sports and performed weight training for 10 years before then so at least have a practical understanding of weights and seen with numerous athletes why they should perform more specific exercises to prepare for their sports.And you're right about the different types of exercises not carrying over. Which is why I keep going back to doing this on a bike with the chain connected to a weight stack--with that you can train strength in the exact same patterns and body geometries.
Can be trained on the bike, sorry, won't be purchasing your machine just now thanks.0 -
Fantastic...more anecdotal evidence in an attempt to deflect answering a simple hypothetical question.
You won't answer this simple question, even though the premise is easy to prove, and the inference could easily be tested.
Why? Because you are both coaches with a line in the sand, of the camp of Ric Stern, and the correct answer would cause you to back pedal and admit that strength training can be correlated with one small piece of cycling performance.
Do I plan to sell the device? I hope so. Prototypes are on the way, and soon a few cycling training facilities will be evaluating over the next few months. The one prototype being evaluated right now is getting very interesting and positive reactions rom the coaches and the road racers that have been using for just 4 weeks.
But, now that I'm outed, I should say my real intent was to get a little practice with the staunchest of naysayers. I expected Alex to put up a good battle, but it was quite a bonus to have you jump in on this--learned quite a lot just thinking through the holes in your arguments.
I expected you to pull the "you selling this" card, but you'll note there has been nothing in the way of promotion besides one anonymous youtube vid. Just data, good theory and discussion. I do find it odd, however, that a coach who posts a lot on numerous cycling training forums is insinuating that such behavior is nefarious.
Oh, and I promise I won't reply to your final post on this, which I'm sure will have a few more non-gentlemanly sideswipes. Here...I'll misspell somethang for you to correct me on.0 -
markac wrote:Fantastic...more anecdotal evidence in an attempt to deflect answering a simple hypothetical question.
You won't answer this simple question, even though the premise is easy to prove, and the inference could easily be tested.
Why? Because you are both coaches with a line in the sand, of the camp of Ric Stern, and the correct answer would cause you to back pedal and admit that strength training can be correlated with one small piece of cycling performance.
Do I plan to sell the device? I hope so. Prototypes are on the way, and soon a few cycling training facilities will be evaluating over the next few months. The one prototype being evaluated right now is getting very interesting and positive reactions rom the coaches and the road racers that have been using for just 4 weeks.
But, now that I'm outed, I should say my real intent was to get a little practice with the staunchest of naysayers. I expected Alex to put up a good battle, but it was quite a bonus to have you jump in on this--learned quite a lot just thinking through the holes in your arguments.
I expected you to pull the "you selling this" card, but you'll note there has been nothing in the way of promotion besides one anonymous youtube vid. Just data, good theory and discussion. I do find it odd, however, that a coach who posts a lot on numerous cycling training forums is insinuating that such behavior is nefarious.
Oh, and I promise I won't reply to your final post on this, which I'm sure will have a few more non-gentlemanly sideswipes. Here...I'll misspell somethang for you to correct me on.
If people absolutely have to add more resistance to their cycling and don't have adequate hills then these go good, are far more practical and offer far more uses...
http://www.biketechnologies.com/index.p ... &Itemid=54
http://www.lemondfitness.com/product_de ... revolution0 -
Ferg: mixed training = mixed results
In simple terms if you mean body gets confused at which adaptation to make when under the influence of different stimuli eg if you concurrently training for Hypertrophy and power endurance, it does neither particularly well, I’d have to agree that this can easily happen, and I have seen this a number of times with athletes at the highest level . But isn’t that where intelligent program design comes into play (wish these MSc’s had a more practical component) lol don't bite i'm only kidding!Couple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0 -
True if hypertrophy is a requirement of the sport.
Where I have a concern is the Tudor Bompa school of thought where one believes that strength in one movement can be converted to another form of movement. Why not develop the goal movement to it's fullest extent in the first place?0 -
Yeah sure, and you guys have argued your point really well. CoachFerg and Markac have joined the ranks of Kilgore, Rippetoe and Coggan respectively, with Friel and Carmichael sandwiched in the middle they are in good company with their opinions on resistance training for cyclists.
But I might have some food for thought for you, and I’d love to know what you think, also I hope Markac will enjoy it since it lends support to some of his points.
Fact 1: No studies have ever demonstrated that classic weight training have improved Road cycling performance
Fact 2: You simply can’t replicate 3hrs spent on your bike at 90rpm in the gym. That equates to 27000 revolutions, anyone fancy 27000 repititions...?
Yet Weight Training clearly means different things to different people.
I believe that cyclists can weight train without bulking up and reap a lot of benefits. This is certainly the view of Science and Medical support staff at HTC Highroad, formally Team Columbia HTC, who were the most successful team globally from 07-09 with 86 wins. Here’t the thing......
Food For thought 1: Bike technology is now very advanced and they are built torsionally stiff so as not to deform. This is so when the cyclist applies force to the pedal energy is not lost through the foot pedal interface, BB, crank flex. However as you apply force to the pedals only some of the resistance you encounter is translated into forward momentum, the rest is lost through energy leaks, a little in the equipment, a fair bit in you as this energy finds the path of least resistance. Any core or lumbopelvic instability, hip or knee buckling inwards is an energy leak which reduces potential power delivered to the pedals. In a sport where applying sustained power over time determines the result, this is inefficient and improving it will lead to improved performance. Unfortunately this is one aspect of performance which is not going to improve on the bike.
Food For Thought 2: What is weight lifting ?: A single arm bench press performed with a 6-8kg DB, legs 90 degrees may be all that is required to improve rotational stability, which on the bike would help transfer force to pedal and improve efficiency. It has nothing to do with fibre type or the relative component of Pec Major, Ant Deltoid, Triceps blah blah but the whole body stabilization required to perform the movement. Similarly a number of other resistance training drills can be designed to challenge stability, with the application of external mass, which yield improved stability and energy transfer on the bike.
:idea:Couple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0 -
With all due respect, would you mind elaborating a bit? There were a couple of different manifestations of the question you quoted, so to give more context, the entire argument is below, if you're willing to comment.acoggan wrote:It doesn't for me.
The hypothesis is that average power of a maximal effort for 20 rotations of a bicycle crank can be strongly correlated with 1RM strength of an exercise which presents a load against the push-down segment of the pedaling motion (L/R legs exercised individually as in this example of a right leg exercise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoKYhyCJZis)
Part 1
A hypothetical example was given, whereby after training in a leg press exercise, 1RM increased from 200kg to 240kg. After training, average power in a maximal 10 repetition effort increased from 160W to 192W (an assumption was made that 80% of 1RM could be pressed 10 times).
Q1: Is the above example valid or invalid?
Part 2
Assuming the above example is valid, can we draw an inference for a brief all-out cycling effort?
Ceteris paribus, suppose an endurance trained cyclist were to undergo a strength training program (RT) for the push-down segment of the pedaling motion, in the exact body geometry as that used on his bicycle (identical joint angles, degrees of contraction, etc.).
After 12 weeks of strength training, the cyclist's 1RM for this exercise increases, say 20%.
Q2: If you place this athlete on a bicycle in a seated position (similar to the exercises), choose an appropriate gear, and ask the cyclist to maximally perform 20 pedal revolutions, would the average power of those revolutions show an increase after the strength training intervention?
Both of the questions above can be answered with a simple yes or no. I'm very interested in why you'd have a no answer for either of these questions, and hope that you'd elaborate.0 -
physiosteve wrote:Similarly a number of other resistance training drills can be designed to challenge stability, with the application of external mass, which yield improved stability and energy transfer on the bike.
First step is to ensure good position on the bike.
Second is to ensure the rider chooses the right cadence.
Third is to ensure the rider follows a careful progression of intensity and/or volume in their training.
These three factors are the biggest causes of injury on the bike when not done properly.
Then I would add that coaching on riding technique can be trained on the bike. I go beyond doing bike set ups on a windtrainer and once the basic position is sorted and they have good technique I go out on the road, off road or track and view them under load.
Here is a review that challenges a lot of the core stability assumptions...
http://www.craigliebenson.com/wp-conten ... rticle.pdf0 -
markac wrote:
would you mind elaborating a bit?acoggan wrote:It doesn't for me.
Sure.
1. Contrary to your starting assumption, the correlation between strength and maximal power while cycling is modest at best. As a result, variations between cyclists in strength, per se, explains only ~50% of the variation in the time required to cover 25 m from a standing start (i.e.,
pedal revolutions) (cf. Stone et al., JSCR).
2. In my own case, I've repeated the lift/don't lift experiment many times over (as I usually lift weights for 3 mo every winter, but not the other 9 mo of the year). The result, as I said, has been no impact on my maximal power. This is true despite achieving all of the typical responses/adaptations to resistance training that you would expect of someone following this sort of pattern (i.e., 20-80% increase in 1 RM, ~2 kg increase in lean body mass).
EDIT: I was recalling the data from Stone et al.'s paper incorrectly. In fact, the correlation between strength and 25 m time is even lower than I remembered, meaning that the two variables had only ~25% of variance in common.
Note also that Stone et al. found that variations in strength only accounted for ~50% of the variation in peak power measured during a Wingate test...0 -
Cheers for the link Ferg, I have read that article before though, and unfortunately it takes some out of date research and tries to weave a counter intuitive argument with assumptions and half truths. Not trying to be smart, there was a time when i did take that simplistic non functional approach to core, but thankfully I learned.
For anyone interested, Darcy Norman provides Sports Science and Physical Therapy support to Colombia HTC and he has had some great results with a functional movement based approach to mobility and stability training with some of the best cyclists in the world. I’ve met him a few times and he’s world class.
Audio interview with him in the link below - just click “listen now” and scroll to 32:15
http://strengthcoachpodcast.typepad.com ... hlete.html
Given some of the arguments mentioned it may surprise a few people that the very successful GB Track Cycling Team do have a few Strength and Conditioning coaches. Mark Simpson is S&C Lead based in Manchester, hopefully get the chance to pick his brains next month in person, although with so many medallists, Olympic and World Champions singing his praises it seems obvious (see below)
http://www.eis2win.co.uk/pages/news_spr ... ength.aspxCouple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0 -
Great...thanks for spending some time on this.acoggan wrote:1. Contrary to your starting assumption, the correlation between strength and maximal power while cycling is modest at best. As a result, variations between cyclists in strength, per se, explains only ~50% of the variation in the time required to cover 25 m from a standing start (i.e., pedal revolutions) (cf. Stone et al., JSCR).
2. In my own case, I've repeated the lift/don't lift experiment many times over (as I usually lift weights for 3 mo every winter, but not the other 9 mo of the year). The result, as I said, has been no impact on my maximal power. This is true despite achieving all of the typical responses/adaptations to resistance training that you would expect of someone following this sort of pattern (i.e., 20-80% increase in 1 RM, ~2 kg increase in lean body mass).
EDIT: I was recalling the data from Stone et al.'s paper incorrectly. In fact, the correlation between strength and 25 m time is even lower than I remembered, meaning that the two variables had only ~25% of variance in common.
Note also that Stone et al. found that variations in strength only accounted for ~50% of the variation in peak power measured during a Wingate test...
Both of your points seem to address the cycling inference, but not the first part of the proposition regarding average power in the leg press example. The leg press example, though expressed as a function of strength, is meant to demonstrate a relationship between changes in strength, local muscular endurance, and the resulting average power in a short-duration maximal exercise.
The exact Watts, % gains in RM, and % of RM which can be repeated 10 times is only meant to be hypothetical.
Real world numbers will be different, of course, but do you generally agree with the validity of this hypothetical example?
I am, btw, thinking about your comments regarding the cycling inference, but want to first make sure the first part my first proposition is valid to you.0 -
If you are going to challenge the Lederman review then I would expect more than Podcasts.
If you are going to make claims about the success of the EIS squad then I would expect more than a blog page.
Strength and Conditioning Coaches are always going to talk up the benefits of weight training because that is how they get paid. Still waiting for real data that it is the gym training they do over the countless hours they spend on the bike and how the best sprint teams usually are the ones that compete the most.
Same as Markrac who has a product to push and keeps making circular arguments and ignores the data put before him.
People like gym training because the feedback is instant. You complete the lift or don't. Measuring cycle sprint performance in a valid manner is more complicated.0 -
Good stuff Markac, Andy even edited his post to elaborate on the Stone paper that answers your question.
Ladies and Gentleman: "Frank Day Jnr has arrived"!
Come to think of it Powercranks would provide a better form of specific resistance exercise than a cable attached to a weight stack seeing you can work on any aspect of the pedal stroke you wish. More convenient as well as you can alter resistance on the trainer or by changing gear. Can also be done anywhere rather than having to have a weight stack nearby.
Just a pity that 0/~10 Powercrank studies show an improvement in performance.0 -
C’mon Ferg I’m not challenging Lederman with a Podcast, Lederman challenges himself with a really embarrassing article.
The Podcast gives a unique insight into the experiences of a genuine expert in his field who works with elite cyclists, who is part of a growing breed, who’s approach to conditioning is about improving efficiency of movement through functional strengthening. As opposed to the ones who are proud of their athletes 200kg Squat, when the same athlete lacks the stability to stand on one leg. I’m not passing it off as empirical evidence, but if it gets people thinking its surely of value.
May have been a typo but measuring cycle sprint performance in a valid manner isn’t complex at all, it simply requires a timing gate. It’s precisely because the Physiology of the event is complex that we don’t have all the answers.
And Ferg, do I really need to make a claim about the success of Team GB Cyclists. You’ve already acknowledged their performances yourself.Couple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0 -
physiosteve wrote:C’mon Ferg I’m not challenging Lederman with a Podcast, Lederman challenges himself with a really embarrassing article.
Challenge his comments then.
I challenge Aagaard's critique of Levin's study where he claims it was too short to see any benefits yet offers other studies using a same time frame as evidence when they support his argument. It's a bit like Frank Day claiming most studies on Powercranks are too short to show any benefit yet he holds up Lutrell 2003 when it it is also a 6 week study.The Podcast gives a unique insight into the experiences of a genuine expert in his field who works with elite cyclists, who is part of a growing breed, who’s approach to conditioning is about improving efficiency of movement through functional strengthening. As opposed to the ones who are proud of their athletes 200kg Squat, when the same athlete lacks the stability to stand on one leg. I’m not passing it off as empirical evidence, but if it gets people thinking its surely of value.
I base my thinking on "how can I make my riders perform better in competition" not what equipment can I sell them, how many extra training sessions can I book them for, what kickbacks can I get from the physio.May have been a typo but measuring cycle sprint performance in a valid manner isn’t complex at all, it simply requires a timing gate. It’s precisely because the Physiology of the event is complex that we don’t have all the answers.
How many tracks have a timing gate, timing strips or timing lights. Do times tell the full story? What about on an outdoor track or the difference between winter and summer indoors?And Ferg, do I really need to make a claim about the success of Team GB Cyclists. You’ve already acknowledged their performances yourself.
Red Herring. Can you conclusively say (with supporting data) that the British Sprint Teams success is based on the gym programme alone when they compete regularly and the biggest cost to the EIS is the time the sprinters use training on the track?0 -
Ferg you lil tinker! I didn’t want to move off topic but since you insist I’ll try and rise to the challenge.
In his article the myth of Core Stability (CS), the Lederman seeks to tackle: Assumptions about CS, The strength issue, The timing issue, The role of single muscles in CS.
He sets the scene by making six comments relating to the above issues, that he believes to be common assumptions regarding Core Stability training. Whilst some of these may be wide held beliefs amongst some sectors of the Personal Training industry or variant health care professionals, I would doubt that they are a mainstream amongst the experienced musculoskeletal practitoners.
Whilst setting the scene for the popularity of Tr Abdominus re-education the author builds his argument upon on how Pregnant women and obese people undergo significant stretch of the anterior abdominal wall without a significant increase in LBP. This in itself is a bizarre statement, since these populations do indeed appear to have a significantly greater risk of LBP. When discussing Pregnant women whose Transversus Abdominus is stretched, he then jumps to trunk flexor performance, as if RA and TA are one and the same!!?? Suggesting that a loss of trunk flexion strength during pregnancy is not associated with a statistiacally significant rise in LBP is not suprising at all, given that:
TA is not a trunk Flexor
Trunk Flexion power is a very poor test of CS, whose structure and function is to produce movement ( flexion) and not stabilise the Lx Sp, however it may well be implicated in The lumbopelvic Pelvic muscle imbalance of anteriorly tilted pelvis.
Anecdotally Pregnancy is associated with LBP which may well be in part exacerbated by an overstretched abdominal wall, although the eitiology is multifactorial. Therefore I disagree completely with the opening argument and attempt to question the role of CS during pregnancy.
And 3 paragraphs later he’s still ranting about Rectus Abdominus and the fact that it takes several weeks to return to a relatively normal resting length, like it matters! Really, a single muscle..?
Almost laughably he asks why LBP is almost abolished post delivery, err well a significant mass anterior to the lumbar spine has been removed ie significant lumbo pelvic shearing reduced, then he asks why the spine does not collapse...? I wonder whether his somewhat dusty ancient copy of Grays Anatomy circa 1980 had pages missing given that ligamentous complexes are not discussed, multifidus doesn’t get a mention, and there is no attempt to discuss how various myofascial slings/lines/systems/ regional interdependence which contribute to stability or force couple closure.
His mention of Inguinal Hernia repair of the TA, simply illustrates a lack of understanding. Since it is the aponeurosis of External Obliques with or without the Conjoint tendon which are torn and implicated in this injury.
I mean how long have you got.....
Assumptions about TA and the role of other core muscles:
Conclusions:
Abdominal musculature can undergo significant change during/following pregnancy and obesity with no sig increase in LBP. Should read: The anterior abdominal wall..... blah blah
Damage to abdominal muscultature or surgery does not seem to be detrimental to spinal stability or LBP. Strange comment studies on Sp stab or an observation of the author...?
No study to date has looked at spinal instability using Dynamic MRI
The Timing Issue
Delay of TA activation whilst moving Limbs in Chronic LBP – Good research numerous studies, but as the author correctly suggests concentrating on pure TA in isolation requires a huge leap of faith!
I am sure this would register to most credible Physio’s as noteworthy but not a panacea for TA isolation ex’s well read Physio’s will be also aware of Multifidus timing atrophy, P Floor and Br Patterns and the work of Comerford, Motterall, Kolar, McGill suggesting the need for a balanced cylindrical core and reflex stabilization!!!! Not just TA
That a delay in TA activation may be advantageous is highly debateable, whilst the author does not qualify what he means by this it may well be that in the presence of global Lumbopelvic stability deficiencies an isolated TA contraction could cause an increase in shearing forces on Lx Spine.Couple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0 -
Cool, challenge well met and I think it shows the pitfalls of relying on reviews as "evidence" like using Aagaard's review as support for an argument. Having access to most of the full documents I think he is pretty quick to support any study that supports his pet theories and even quicker to dismiss those that don't. I will hold out for better data. Ronnestad found performance improvements but greater muscular cross section area but no change in weight. Quite surprising he didn't measure skinfolds to see if his experimental group didn't gain lean tissue and drop body fat. Even after 4 papers on the same experiment there are still more questions than answers.
With regards to imbalances on the bike I have found that through coaching I am able to detect the issues and correct them. Was down at the track on the motorbike and spotted one the girls I coach right knee comes in under load and with just advice it was corrected. A lot of issues relate back to poor position on the bike. One of my guys keeps pushing his saddle right forward as he feels more powerful in that position. That he may be but unless he goes to a longer stem (putting all the weight on the front of his bike) all it does is push him up more into the wind.0 -
Ok Ferg, its been emotional!
I'll have to do a bit more reading around some of the articles u mention re strength training and cycling -until then I feel more knowledgable now then when the thread started...!Couple of 5 spots, a hummer and a handjob.....0 -
CoachFerg--while we're waiting for Andy to reply to my latest post, I'm wondering if you realize that on a largely anonymous Internet forum, bully tactics aren't as effective as they are on the 7th grade playground?CoachFerg wrote:Good stuff Markac, Andy even edited his post to elaborate on the Stone paper that answers your question.
Ladies and Gentleman: "Frank Day Jnr has arrived"!
Do you ever go back and read some of the things you say? Besides the stonewalling tactics on some of the specifics I've brought up (usually reserved for political bullying), you've made numerous disparaging remarks, have specifically attacked my character and intent, and with this latest hooting and hollering from behind the broad shoulders of Andy Coggan (long before he's convinced me of anything btw), you've really shrunk to a new level of unbecoming behavior for anyone claiming to be a professional anything.
All that said, I also realize it is easy to revert to that sort of thing when you're frustrated by a worthy opponent, so if you're willing to clean up your act a bit and not evade specific questions, maybe we can continue this (even if Andy is too busy to get back right away).
EDIT--With that in mind Ferg, are you willing to continue this discussion with less vitriol and more fair and structured debate (with hand extended)? (edited out "You game?")
EDIT-Thanks Lucan--I've edited my last sentence to be less provoking, and more professional. Didn't mean for the post to seem like name calling; was really trying to focus on the behavior, as I'd like to keep going on this, but not under the stated conditions.0 -
It would be very sad to see this excellent thread descend into name calling.
And please, no-one say, "he started it"!!!
:evil:Summer: Kuota Kebel
Winter: GT Series30 -
markac wrote:CoachFerg--while we're waiting for Andy to reply to my latest post, I'm wondering if you realize that on a largely anonymous Internet forum, bully tactics aren't as effective as they are on the 7th grade playground?
Pointless debating the issues with you as you have ignored all the information provided thus far. Other have taken on board but having invested in your pointless device I can't see you backing down. I mean people just need to ride down the road and push hard in the biggest gear to achieve the same effect and it's not like you have even created something new just copied someone else's idea.
So I am just going to have some fun pointing out the classic behaviour of a Snake Oil Salesman.0 -
Wherever this post ends up I've learned from it. My views have even been influenced, for example the hills around me provide a natural training load to be enjoyed. The expertise on show is scary. :shock: Thanks.Why tidy the house when you can clean your bike?0
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Mr Dog wrote:Wherever this post ends up I've learned from it. My views have even been influenced, for example the hills around me provide a natural training load to be enjoyed. The expertise on show is scary. :shock: Thanks.
Well if people care to discuss riding a bike faster for longer then I'm up for that.0 -
I'll take that as a "no".CoachFerg wrote:So I am just going to have some fun pointing out the classic behaviour of a Snake Oil Salesman.
Would it help your opinion of me if I told you that I was basically retired before embarking on this, then discovered how SFR and acceleration workouts dramatically improved my own cycling performance, got this idea all on my own--building a chain-based prototype, saw further results after that, then studied the physiology of it as well as the application and history in cycling, designed and built a commercial-grade prototype, and now am primarily motivated by propagating the idea for all cyclists to benefit?
Sure, I'd be lying if I said that I didn't want more money, but that is not what this project has ever been about.
I'd stand before any judge of snake oil salesmen.0 -
markac wrote:I'd stand before any judge of snake oil salesmen.
To begin your honour the defendant claims to have studied the physiology of cycling when it seems apparent that he has cherry picked remote concepts that support his claims and ignored all evidence to the contrary.
Prosecution rests?
No my Lord, just warming up!0 -
Just a quick note to thank CoachFerg and Markac for their contributions and training advice (back on pages 6 & 7 of this thread) regarding my desire to conquer Boltby & Blakey Banks on the Ryedale Rumble this year. Taken in conjunction with a great article in C+ a while ago about hill-climbing I went out and did as much as I could - short power intervals on the commute home from work, longer FTP intervals as part of normal rides out, FTP repeats and all-out sprints up hills etc etc. The ride was yesterday and I got up both climbs (and knocked over half an hour off last year's time despite waiting for about 15 minutes for my bro and buddy to get up said climbs behind me) so well-chuffed
and very grateful to you both for your advice 
Thank you...0 -
good job, sounds like you had a great ride.Cheers
Rich
A Vision of a Champion is someone who is bent over, drenched with sweat, at the point of exhaustion, when no one else is watching.0
