RANT - RLJ's

bigmat

Hmm, does sound a bit like a cut up to me, but if it was all done in a "controlled and stable manner" then fair enough, blame the RLJers.

Origamist

I think we need some diversionary cycle-cam film of a similarish incident (cyclist vs moped smash at amber/red lights) so an attention seeking, vigilante cyclist can get a few more hits on his sad YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLampwWYK94

DonDaddyD

I agree with Greg.

I'm growing increasingly tired of overexcited drafters who adopt a must follow the guy riding at 20mph as closely as possible and at all costs mentality.

But if anyone were to crash into the back of me when I've just stopped at a red. It bloddy better be a worth while crash.

Greg wrote:

To transpose, if a car overtook me, then braked for a red light, and I was unable to brake sufficiently for the same red light without riding into him, I think I'd start questioning whether my brakes and/or eyes and/or brain were working properly.

Assuming the car had created enough space during the overtaking move. But then common sense and experience has taught me to look at the angle of the vehicle to assess how far ahead of me it will likely rejoin the lane and if a little close I'd already be backing off via the brakes.

I'd also have clocked the next set of lights and other obsticles up the road to assess whether I need to be prepared to stop.

Finally I'd like to think that while overtaking, I'd have clocked the cars indicators to see if it was overtaking and then going to turn off the main road and be prepared to stop.

In other words as you said the OP did very little, if anything at all, wrong.

hatbeard

question to the OP which set of lights was it?

flicksta

I'm not sure I would have' just overtaken about 6 or 7 commuters' when approaching a red light. I don't tend to overtake in the approach to red lights, in case they go red and the person behind me fails to stop. They may well have been able to stop for the red light, but you've just shortened their available stopping distance.

Not saying they are in the right, but if a car overtook me in the approach to a red light, I'd be pretty annoyed.

Pufftmw

HB

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 2,135,,0,5

Woman eventually came to a stop just before the bus-stop!


Flicksta - lights were green when I overtook them all m8

jonginge

DonDaddyD wrote:

I agree with Greg.

I'm growing increasingly tired of overexcited drafters who adopt a must follow the guy riding at 20mph as closely as possible and at all costs mentality.

But if anyone were to crash into the back of me when I've just stopped at a red. It bloddy better be a worth while crash.

Greg wrote:

To transpose, if a car overtook me, then braked for a red light, and I was unable to brake sufficiently for the same red light without riding into him, I think I'd start questioning whether my brakes and/or eyes and/or brain were working properly.

Assuming the car had created enough space during the overtaking move. But then common sense and experience has taught me to look at the angle of the vehicle to assess how far ahead of me it will likely rejoin the lane and if a little close I'd already be backing off via the brakes.

I'd also have clocked the next set of lights and other obsticles up the road to assess whether I need to be prepared to stop.

Finally I'd like to think that while overtaking, I'd have clocked the cars indicators to see if it was overtaking and then going to turn off the main road and be prepared to stop.

In other words as you said the OP did very little, if anything at all, wrong.

+1 to all this.

Anticipation is the mainstay of roadcraft. Fashioning a get out route is a very good idea. That generally means backing off a bit when someone overtakes.

I've been shunted when stopped at a RL. Thing was I'd already been stationary with foot down for a couple of seconds... the guy got little sympathy from me for his off.

@flicksta Not sure but I think the OP's pass occurred when the light was green. The lights changed, he had time to stop.

jzed

Had a few close encounters with people coming close at red lights and a few drafting fairies. It seems that some people just do not stop at red lights and at ones like the one on Jamaica Road (with no left approach) most RLJers won't even slow down, and seem to have an expectation that you won't bother stopping too.

If I overtake close to lights I tend to keep my line rather just in case. On the off chance someone does hit me - I'd expect they may well come of worse......

hfidgen

gaz545 wrote:

This is why i never pull to the left when i stop.

A. to avoid idiots like you came across today.

b. when you set off, you are at your most vulnerable. by being in the centre of your lane you have control over it and you stop idiots from behind you passing too close.

Couldn't agree more - if you're quick enough not to get beeped by any impatient drivers then sit in the middle of the lane and take control. You'll also usually get to overtake all the filterers who scratched and scraped their way to the front as the stream of traffic barges past them, with you in tow.

rjsterry

notsoblue wrote:

My assumption about the timescale of events could be wrong of course, but if there was enough time for the nodders to brake for the lights, and they managed to crash into him then the OP encountered a group of particularly special needs nodders. And if that was the case, then he has my sympathies.

They seem to form quite a high proportion within the nodder community, but on reflection, there are also plenty of quite speedy roadies and cyclists of other varieties who don't feel it necessary to pay attention to the world around them.

ride_whenever

I find rlj'rs annoying, but less so than the ones who push through and stand right in front of you AND are then REALLY slow off at the lights.

By al means push through if you're quick off the lights, but why bother if you're just going to hold everyone up?

hatbeard

ahh I know that bit well and it makes it extremely clear how it went down to me.

for those who don't ride this route this is basically the beginning of a long straight shot to rotherhithe roundabout which only has two main junctions and a couple of ped crossings, there's a bus lane the whole way and is easily the fastest section of my commute all the way down to greenwich. 20mph is nothing for this area really if you hit the main junction lights at the right time you can go flat out for the full mile.

the ped crossings are rarely used in the evenings (with the exception of the one outside bermondsey tube further along) but when they are they change as soon as the button is pushed more often than not.

at the previous set of lights the asl always gums up as both lanes are open to cars on the approach to the junction and most people seem to be afraid of pulling away without their 'headstart' from the confines of the asl so people push their way through*.

the outcome of this is you cross the junction and hit the bus lane just the other side by which point the faster among us are already travelling much faster than the cyclists who pushed past us and 99 times out of a 100 we'd be off through the next junction and gone before they got anywhere near it. this just happened to be the 1/100 where someone wanted to cross the road and hit the crossing button. puff although travelling at speed was aware of the road conditions and safely came to a stop, the people behind him were probably intended on jumping the ped crossing (something that happens with alarming regularity along there) or were simply watching the wheel of the bike in front as they continued to accellerate and failed to see the unexpected changing light and the resulting delay in their reactions caused them to slam on the anchors or in the womans case not even bother and just careen their way through clipping puff as she did so.

navt

Pufftmw wrote:

HB

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 2,135,,0,5

Woman eventually came to a stop just before the bus-stop!


Flicksta - lights were green when I overtook them all m8

Visibility looks good. Can't see how anyone could not have stopped and avoided they traffic light sitting in the middle of the cycle lane

flicksta

Pufftmw wrote:

HB

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&sourc ... 2,135,,0,5

Woman eventually came to a stop just before the bus-stop!


Flicksta - lights were green when I overtook them all m8

Yep, not saying you were in the wrong. But green lights only change one way, I don't tend to overtake in the run up to green lights unless I am very familiar with the light sequence and know they are not going the change. That can't be the case with a ped Xing.

Canny Jock

Not sure it was possible in this case, but if I'm coming up to a red light with other cyclists behind me, I stand up, unclip and freewheel to the lights to give people an indication that I'm actually going to stop. Seems to work, I haven't been hit from behind yet.

And commenting on the above - I tend to think pufftmw was in the right, it's the people who assume that they can just ride through reds that caused the problem - this time they hit a cyclist, next time it could easily be the pedestrian in the black coat. Yes he might have overtaken them at speed, but either they weren't paying attention to the lights or chose to ignore it - whichever way it's their fault.

Off-topic - puff, what time do you normally ride that route and on what bike? Must keep an eye out for you, recognise that username from another forum :-)

hatbeard

Canny Jock wrote:

Off-topic - puff, what time do you normally ride that route and on what bike? Must keep an eye out for you

especially approaching traffic lights

sketchley

I saw the most amazingly stupid RJL yesterday morning. Kennington Road, heading north from A3 at Junction with Kennington Lane. The lights have just changed to red and I'm 50 yards away slowing down, guy comes past on fixed bike with grey courier bag and no helmet on, he goes straight through the red light. First thing he does is wave at the oncoming right turning traffic to turn in front of him (note these cars have stopped due to spotting the lunatic on the bike jumping the lights). He then goes to the right of these cars and turns right to match the direction of the traffic now coming from left to right across the junction at speed, he was having to rear wheel brake very hard as he does this and nearly crashes twice. Then he speeds up to match the speed of the right to left traffic on Kennington Lane, before turning left and cutting across between two vehicles causing one to brake hard and nearly causing an accident behind. At this point he's now on the wrong side of the road approaching the traffic lights in order to carry on up Kennington road. At this point I'm thinking what a muppet, but he must have seen the pedestrians crossing the Kennington road from right to left (on a green man), he then pulls a really hard rear wheel brake when he’s realises he won’t make it then pulls an almost identical maneuver only the other way round, first turning left then cutting back round right in front of pedestrians causing them some fright. Utter muppet. Without a doubt the worse bit of cycling I've ever seen.

Pufftmw

Canny Jock wrote:

Off-topic - puff, what time do you normally ride that route and on what bike? Must keep an eye out for you, recognise that username from another forum :-)

Jock

A bit of a varied schedule but Mon/Wed around 18:00 (give or take a half hour) and Tue/Thu around 20:45!

I need to be in Aldgate for 9AM so leave Lewisham @ 8:30.

The bike is a black Ghost 5000

What about yourself?

Canny Jock

On a single speed Tricross for now, full mudguards, red Gore jacket and flashing light on my rucksack. Also prodrive exhaust, remap, whiteline ARB, ALK...

I generally leave about 6ish from Shoreditch heading past Aldgate, Tower Bridge, Jamaica Road etc towards Hither Green - so I'll look out for you at all the light we stop at on the way. There won't be many of us :-(

jonny_trousers

W1 wrote:

Another story where an accident was caused by other road users assuming a cyclist would jump a red light. That assumption wouldn't exist if cyclists actually stopped for red lights.

So, to all you regular RLJers out there, who cause this presumption - this is your fault.

Safer my a*se.

Oh dear. Still smarting over that other thread?

The cyclists who crashed, or nearly crashed, into the OP did so because they were riding like idiots. They were idiots for making assumptions, they were idiots for riding too close to the OP (assuming he didn't just overtake and cut in) and they were idiots for not paying enough attention to the road ahead.

When I cross that single red light on my round trip (the light only, never the actual junction if the lights are against me) I do so at an incredibly slow pace and with my brakes very well covered. There is no way on earth that I could not stop in a split-second if I needed to.

Tell me I am a law breaker and I will agree with you. Explain that my extremely rare and judicious RLJing puts other cyclists at risk and I will respectfully beg to differ. Tell me I am just as poor a cyclist as those the OP found himself involved with and I will tell you to stop making ridiculous generalisations simply to further your chosen crusade.

roger_merriman

Pufftmw wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

rereading it the lights where orange as he passed them, now i'd not be overtaking at speed when I should be stopping,

mind you i'd also be stopping any how.

Just for accuracy, I passed them & then they turned orange. Sorry if not clear. Even at the speed I was doing there was no chance of me going through them on orange or even a "just" red.

ah ha, righty oh. and having looked at google maps does seem a rather clear road....






Purpose of the thread was a rant against the stupidity of RLJs after one particularly thick example of the breed ran into my shoulder at speed having obviously had no intention of stopping or been able to stop in time when I did. Sorry if I started the umpteenth debate thread...

roger_merriman

Wallace1492 wrote:

roger merriman wrote:

Wallace1492 wrote:

Pufftmw wrote:

What is the point of jumping a red light, when just waiting a few seconds and you will be as far up the road as you were before?

No, no, no. If you jump a red light you will be far further up the road. (Note, I do not jump red lights) In this case the poster was far faster than the other cyclists and overtook them, this had nothing to do with jumping or not.

If red light jumping Pufftmw raced non RLJing Pufftmw then the RLJing version would get there first... simples.

However RLJing is wrong.... as is mounting the pavement to get by lights/junctions, especially when not wearing a helmet and having no lights, wearing jeans, and listening to Ipod, while answering phone and sending a text.

though most don't get far up the road, the cross roads I pass though most RLJ barely get to the bus stop just the the other side before I pass them.

They are slow, you are fast, exactly the point I made. RLJing Roger would be but a mere speck in the distance.... It does get you there faster, but it is wrong and unacceptable.

unless they charge though post RLJ have to creep though, so the time gained is quite low. so even a wizzy fast RLJ doesn't gain much.

W1

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Oh dear. Still smarting over that other thread?

The cyclists who crashed, or nearly crashed, into the OP did so because they were riding like idiots. They were idiots for making assumptions, they were idiots for riding too close to the OP (assuming he didn't just overtake and cut in) and they were idiots for not paying enough attention to the road ahead.

When I cross that single red light on my round trip (the light only, never the actual junction if the lights are against me) I do so at an incredibly slow pace and with my brakes very well covered. There is no way on earth that I could not stop in a split-second if I needed to.

Tell me I am a law breaker and I will agree with you. Explain that my extremely rare and judicious RLJing puts other cyclists at risk and I will respectfully beg to differ. Tell me I am just as poor a cyclist as those the OP found himself involved with and I will tell you to stop making ridiculous generalisations simply to further your chosen crusade.

I think it's fairly obvious who is smarting petal, and it's not me. After 16 pages, and in the face of specific advice, guidance and disagreement from others who actually use that junction, I don't think you'd persuaded anyone of your "crusade". And this thread is a great example of one aspect of RLJing that increases the danger for other cyclists - but I bet you hadn't taken that into account in your "safety" argument, had you? And I'm sure you won't comprehend the causal connection between "cyclists RLJing" and people presuming that cyclists will RLJ, because you haven't even understood the point I made above.

I would't suggest that you are as poor a cyclist as these morons. What I have suggested is that cyclists RLJing caused the presumption that the OP would RLJ, and when that presumption turned out to be incorrect, there was an accident. If cyclists didn't RLJ, that presumption wouldn't exist and the accident wouldn't have occurred.

bobinski

not looking to stir things up further but rlj's are really pi**ing me off.

I have a right turn into baylis road just by waterloo, coming off Kennington road.Its controlled by lights. traffic either turns right with me or continues straight onto Westminster Bridge. So i have to watch out for traffic that tries to over take me wanting to go straight, as i turn right.
When my light is green a red light stops traffic emerging from the left. well, at least cars...

Yesterday 3 cyclists jumped the red light at speed just as i began to cross the junction and turn right, at some speed mind, with a car behind me. i had to break and swerve out to the right further into the road and sensed the car much closer now. one of them was much faster than the others but i caught him at the light and gave him a right bollocking. He kept saying he hadnt seen me! for a moment i thought i was talking to a car driver! he wasnt interested in any discussion about rlj'ing.

then another today, junction baylis and waterloo road, we are all going across towards the cut and this guy comes speeding across the junction. we all have to brake. what a muppet...

SimonAH

There is only one way to jump a red light (saving the tree in the forest example) and it is this;

notsoblue

W1 wrote:

If cyclists didn't RLJ, that presumption wouldn't exist and the accident wouldn't have occurred.

OT, but I still can't figure out exactly why that opinion annoys me so much. I guess its partly because people who voice it seem to be saying that if nobody broke the law, nothing bad would ever happen. Theres something about that kind of deference to authority and order that seems so sanctimonious and short sighted. Just follow the rules and everything will be fine. And if its not, at least you're in the right. Its such a passive, self-victimising stance because you can't possibly have any influence on other people's RLJ habits, so your default position is to impotently moan and/or rant about things you can't change.

jzed

bobinski wrote:

cyclists jumped the red light at speed

I think this is a new urban sport, together with "ride flat out a a pedestrian crossing without stopping and hope for the best".

I think its more likely someone will stack into the back of another cyclist at a pedestrian corssing than at a red light.

EDIT: and a further discipline seems to be "riding at high speed down the pavement to get round traffic"

soundninjauk

notsoblue wrote:

Its such a passive, self-victimising stance because you can't possibly have any influence on other people's RLJ habits, so your default position is to impotently moan and/or rant about things you can't change.

Or option B, moan about it on the internet, and then park your bike at 90 degrees to the direction of travel across every junction on a red light so as to prevent people from jumping them.

Gotta love the direct approach.

hatbeard

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

If cyclists didn't RLJ, that presumption wouldn't exist and the accident wouldn't have occurred.

OT, but I still can't figure out exactly why that opinion annoys me so much. I guess its partly because people who voice it seem to be saying that if nobody broke the law, nothing bad would ever happen. Theres something about that kind of deference to authority and order that seems so sanctimonious and short sighted. Just follow the rules and everything will be fine. And if its not, at least you're in the right. Its such a passive, self-victimising stance because you can't possibly have any influence on other people's RLJ habits, so your default position is to impotently moan and/or rant about things you can't change.

I think what they're saying is that by acting the way they do they're re-enforcing negative stereotypes which in turn get applied to all cyclists in broad strokes by those who prefer to see things in black and white rather than shades of grey.

To me it's akin to me liking to wear hooded tops but nowadays they're the mark of a chav/thug/criminal or 'hoodie' because the most notable wearers were the ones going round exhibiting antisocial behaviour and breaking the law and as such eventually there was a public backlash against them, thanks in no small part to smears by the media who all love a dig at things like hoodies (and RLJ).

If enough people within any group that are perceived to be a certain way based on looks, beliefs, opinions etc act in a negative way then that group will invariably end up being stereotyped imo. it's not right but there's plenty of bigots/idiots out there who make it impossible to avoid.

sketchley

notsoblue wrote:

W1 wrote:

If cyclists didn't RLJ, that presumption wouldn't exist and the accident wouldn't have occurred.

OT, but I still can't figure out exactly why that opinion annoys me so much. I guess its partly because people who voice it seem to be saying that if nobody broke the law, nothing bad would ever happen. Theres something about that kind of deference to authority and order that seems so sanctimonious and short sighted. Just follow the rules and everything will be fine. And if its not, at least you're in the right. Its such a passive, self-victimising stance because you can't possibly have any influence on other people's RLJ habits, so your default position is to impotently moan and/or rant about things you can't change.

I see you point clearly the statement “if nobody broke the law, nothing bad would ever happen” is wrong.

However, the for me the argument is that some motorists use the fact that cyclists RLJ to as reason not listen to any criticism from cyclists of bad driving or cycling problems in general. Then despite cycling campaigners being assertive and trying to change things, rather than “passive and self-victimising” they get met with stock responses such as "Something need to be done about cyclists RLJ, riding on pavements …." and you reach a stand off, a pattern that has gone on for years. Furthermore, when taken an assertive approach as an individual cyclist and confronting bad driving there is often a refusal to listen because “all cyclists red light jump”, case in point yesterday morning when I tapped on a windows of FedEx van who had left hooked me, first words out of his mouth “f**ck off you lot all read light jump so don’t lecture me”, at this point he’s made up his mind that he will not even consider that I may have a point. I haven’t given him this opinion so who has?

I agree with you that stopping cyclist from RLJ jumping will not stop bad driving, but it would at least mean we could move the conversation with said motorists on from the "You all red light jump" stand off and on to hopefully a more meaningful debate.

If you want to see this in action read the comments on here http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/Home/MP ... rivers.htm. It doesn’t take long to get to RLJ, Cycling on the pavement, cycling the wrong way down a one way street, dark clothing and no lights, completely deflecting the debate away from the issues raised by the MP. If you wish to carry on reducing every cycling related debate to these points and never addressing the real issues then you could consider RLJ to be an individual choice that doesn’t affect other cyclists.