Giro vs TOC. In case you thought the 2nd had a chance

frenchfighter

Fat Pat take note. No stage race in the USA is going to come anywhere close to the Giro. So no shortening.

Homer J

Is 2011 the year of the table? I'll miss them graphs.

Monty Dog

When Tom Weisel and his cronies at US Cycling get indicted as part of the Novisky investigation interest in race-promotion in the US will nose-dive and thankfully there will still be a quality stage-race in May.

DaveyL

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

afx237vi

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

Apart from the much heralded mountain top finish that ended in a bunch sprint, I agree.

DaveyL

afx237vi wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

Apart from the much heralded mountain top finish that ended in a bunch sprint, I agree.

A rather small bunch.

That was a damn hard stage - a lot of riders were eliminated. It might not have been that interesting, as it just went up and up and up, but it was hard.

Tom Butcher

Shame it clashes but for me there is no contest - the Giro consistently serves up the most exciting stage racing of the year and I wont be missing any of it to watch the ToC.

blazing_saddles

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

I'm happy to watch both, too.
However, were it to happen, I would not be happy to see the TOC extended and the Giro cut to a fortnight to accommodate the change.
Instead of creating a US 4th Grand Tour, Pat might leave us with just the one.

inkyfingers

I'm happy to enjoy both. The TOC has potential, but only to be a good week long race. The Giro is a fabulous 3 week race. Longer doesn't always mean better, Paris Nice is a great race, it doesn't need to be two weeks long.

The UCI need to be careful, the Giro is a long established race, internationally renowned. As I said, the TOC has the potential to be a great little race, but history tells us that races like that are only a sponsor pulling out away from folding....The Tours of Missouri, Georgia, Ireland all came and went. Imagine if they shortened the Giro only for the TOC to vanish.

I like the idea of cycling becoming a global sport, but new races need time to establish themselves and build their following, not just be promoted to the top rank because they have some wealthy and vocal backers. You can't extend a building upwards while chipping away at the foundations.

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

+1


I was gonna say i have never understood the negativity to this race but when you factor in the anti american attitudes from some posters in here i do understand it.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

I'm happy to watch both, too.
However, were it to happen, I would not be happy to see the TOC extended and the Giro cut to a fortnight to accommodate the change.
Instead of creating a US 4th Grand Tour, Pat might leave us with just the one.

I think this is you just being silly, there is no chance of the Giro being being cut to two weeks .

moray_gub

Tom Butcher wrote:

Shame it clashes but for me there is no contest - the Giro consistently serves up the most exciting stage racing of the year and I wont be missing any of it to watch the ToC.

Well given you are in the UK that scenario would be most unlikely would it not, unless of course a Giro mountain stage stretches until 2am or something like that .

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

I'm happy to watch both, too.
However, were it to happen, I would not be happy to see the TOC extended and the Giro cut to a fortnight to accommodate the change.
Instead of creating a US 4th Grand Tour, Pat might leave us with just the one.

I think this is you just being silly, there is no chance of the Giro being being cut to two weeks .

Wouldn't Pat McQuaid by the guy who is silly? After all, he's the one who has said that this is the UCI's agenda. Hence, this thread.
Me? I don't care which riders ride either race, as long as the format stays roughly the same. Just keep it that for one week in May, we have more cycling to follow.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

So much negativity towards a bike race. I'd have thought people would be happy to see more decent races being put on. And the ToC was very decent last year, by the way.

For me it isn't one or the other. I can happily watch both.

I'm happy to watch both, too.
However, were it to happen, I would not be happy to see the TOC extended and the Giro cut to a fortnight to accommodate the change.
Instead of creating a US 4th Grand Tour, Pat might leave us with just the one.

I think this is you just being silly, there is no chance of the Giro being being cut to two weeks .

Wouldn't Pat McQuaid by the guy who is silly? After all, he's the one who has said that this is the UCI's agenda. Hence, this thread.
Me? I don't care which riders ride either race, as long as the format stays roughly the same. Just keep it that for one week in May, we have more cycling to follow.

Pat McQuaid said the Giro was getting cut to two weeks ? and if he did then he is being silly it aint gonna happen.

Tom Butcher

Moray Gub wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Shame it clashes but for me there is no contest - the Giro consistently serves up the most exciting stage racing of the year and I wont be missing any of it to watch the ToC.

Well given you are in the UK that scenario would be most unlikely would it not, unless of course a Giro mountain stage stretches until 2am or something like that .

Good for you if you have 24 hours a day free and can watch everything live - I tend to record stuff and watch it in the evening .

Garry H

Given that the the Giro is not owned by the UCI and as long as it remains as popular as it is (Which is a cert), me thinks the chances of it being shortened are zilch. Same as the Tour, I don't think anyone contesting the Giro gives a toss whether the UCI 'recognise' it or not, it stands on its own two feet.

frenchfighter

The TocToc has been around for 6 years. The Giro has been around for more than 100 years. The two are frankly incomparable. If you removed the TocWoccy completely then no one would miss a beat apart from a few US riders and crazy spectators. Take the Giro out and there is a gaping hole.

It was deliberately moved from Feb to clash with the Giro. Simple answer is make it longer at another point in the year.

moray_gub

Tom Butcher wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

Tom Butcher wrote:

Shame it clashes but for me there is no contest - the Giro consistently serves up the most exciting stage racing of the year and I wont be missing any of it to watch the ToC.

Well given you are in the UK that scenario would be most unlikely would it not, unless of course a Giro mountain stage stretches until 2am or something like that .

Good for you if you have 24 hours a day free and can watch everything live - I tend to record stuff and watch it in the evening .

Good for you having a record facility even less chance of you missing either race then..........nothing to see here move on................

dulldave

frenchfighter wrote:

The TocToc has been around for 6 years. The Giro has been around for more than 100 years. The two are frankly incomparable. If you removed the TocWoccy completely then no one would miss a beat apart from a few US riders and crazy spectators. Take the Giro out and there is a gaping hole.

It was deliberately moved from Feb to clash with the Giro. Simple answer is make it longer at another point in the year.

It's more likely that the ToC was deliberately moved in order to benefit from some better weather rather than as an attempt to attack the Giro. The present format works as far as I can see. So as long as the Giro isn't shortened (which is very unlikely) then I'm happy.

Tom Butcher

Moray Gub wrote:

[

Good for you having a record facility even less chance of you missing either race then..........nothing to see here move on................

So many races so little time.

blazing_saddles

Moray Gub wrote:

I think this is you just being silly, there is no chance of the Giro being being cut to two weeks

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Wouldn't Pat McQuaid by the guy who is silly? After all, he's the one who has said that this is the UCI's agenda. Hence, this thread.
Me? I don't care which riders ride either race, as long as the format stays roughly the same. Just keep it that for one week in May, we have more cycling to follow.

Moray Gub wrote:

Pat McQuaid said the Giro was getting cut to two weeks ? and if he did then he is being silly it aint gonna happen.

Yup, you ain't wrong there, MG.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6707/ ... uelta.aspx

deejay

inkyfingers wrote:

I'm happy to enjoy both. The TOC has potential, but only to be a good week long race. The Giro is a fabulous 3 week race. Longer doesn't always mean better, Paris Nice is a great race, it doesn't need to be two weeks long.

The UCI need to be careful, the Giro is a long established race, internationally renowned. As I said, the TOC has the potential to be a great little race, but history tells us that races like that are only a sponsor pulling out away from folding....The Tours of Missouri, Georgia, Ireland all came and went. Imagine if they shortened the Giro only for the TOC to vanish.

I like the idea of cycling becoming a global sport, but new races need time to establish themselves and build their following, not just be promoted to the top rank because they have some wealthy and vocal backers. You can't extend a building upwards while chipping away at the foundations.

I like the TOC but feel that the UCI have placed it wrong against a GT that has all the requirements that make it Great. !
The schedule at this time of year is full of established events anyway, which grew without the help of a dumb Irishman.
The TOC could fit better after the TDF, is California hotter than racing in Southern France. ?

Tour of Germany disappeared and left behind a moderate Hamburg race.
The Eurosport twin Idiots keep bigging up, (sorry for grammer) Down under, TOC, Poland and Eneco and I feel the latter 3 should fight it out amonst themselves.

The schedule needs livening after the TDF not before and I'm certainly not going to see the TOC in May when there is plenty going on in Europe at that time.

RichN95.

deejay wrote:

I like the TOC but feel that the UCI have placed it wrong against a GT that has all the requirements that make it Great. !
The schedule at this time of year is full of established events anyway, which grew without the help of a dumb Irishman.
The TOC could fit better after the TDF, is California hotter than racing in Southern France. ?

Personally, I think that the ToC is perfectly positioned. There aren't any other major races on while the Giro is on and the big stars focussed on the Tour aren't going to be doing the Giro. So the ToC gives them something to do in May that isn't too strenuous. In 2010 the ToC probably had a more star studded starlist than the Giro. And for the ToC to grow, I think that star names are more important than the actual racing.

The Giro organizers' current taste for bonkers parcours will mean that it will revert to being a local race for local people and the stars will go to the US - so everyone wins.

rick_chasey

It's an interesting one.

Ultimately, the Giro is the target of quite a few riders, the ToC isn't.

The globalisation of the calendar is always going to sit uneasily against the big European races. After all since cycling as we know it was European, they just filled the season with races here.

I would also suggest that there is also a reason why cycling as it is most popular is fundamentally a European sport. It suits Europe. Europe suits it. The 3 week races suit a country the size of say, Italy or France, because that is what they were designed for.

The ToC smacks to me of classic American attempt at direct appropriation of European cultural phenomenas - get all the ingredients together, but ultimately fail to deliver the experience. They do it in Vegas, they do it with their food, their 'soccer', their coffee, etc etc. Even the commentators don't know whether to report in miles or kilometres.

Then again, sponsors want the rewards and exposure, even if it is a fake big race with big names who aren't really there to race but will go through the motions to keep their sponsor happy.

California is too big and not varied enough for the given geography. The roads are largely too dull and too wide.

America would do well to make the most of the cycling that has grown there - the action packed, agressive, American version of crit racing, which suits the high energy, high action, financially viable requirements that the Americans want and need, and develop that. They're dying out in Belgium, the much exhalted home of crit racing, but it's big in America, and by the looks of it, they do it well and keep it exciting.

Why not make a proper American race, with their own big riders? Then they can invite Cancellara along and have his ass whooped by some gung ho American hero. They should focus their energy on that, rather than some lame, watered down, European wannabe race that adds no racing value to the calendar beyond the vain hope that it will 'open' the gates to America, which it will never do anyway.

Even the UK has realised the real love lies in track cycling, which is where all the cash goes. That's where the love is. They know deep down the success of the ToB is just cyclical.

frenchfighter

Good points.

Tom Butcher

Rick Chasey wrote:

Even the UK has realised the real love lies in track cycling, which is where all the cash goes. That's where the love is. They know deep down the success of the ToB is just cyclical.

Track cycling is where the money is because it has more Olympic medals available - I don't know about love - if you look at how many posts there are on the track cycling forum I doubt it's more than 1 % of the posts the road forum.

RichN, talking of local races for local people - last year at the ToC the top four were Rogers, Zabriskie, Leipheimer and Horner .......

RichN95.

Tom Butcher wrote:

RichN, talking of local races for local people - last year at the ToC the top four were Rogers, Zabriskie, Leipheimer and Horner .......

Sure, but I'm sure the ToC organizers would like it to be more international, while the Giro has often struck me as a race which would rather it was just Italians doing well.

blazing_saddles

All international races want home riders to do well, but still want to attract a quality field.
If the Giro dropped half the climbing, had 2 MTFs and easy transfers, I still think Cali would lure most of the Tour contenders.
The problem Cali has is making these guys all race competitively, not just the US riders and teams.

Case in point. Katusha want Joachim Rodriguez to ride the Giro, but he doesn't want to, because of his Tour prospects.
Racing in the modern era.

rick_chasey

Tom Butcher wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Even the UK has realised the real love lies in track cycling, which is where all the cash goes. That's where the love is. They know deep down the success of the ToB is just cyclical.

Track cycling is where the money is because it has more Olympic medals available - I don't know about love - if you look at how many posts there are on the track cycling forum I doubt it's more than 1 % of the posts the road forum.

RichN, talking of local races for local people - last year at the ToC the top four were Rogers, Zabriskie, Leipheimer and Horner .......

I'd suggest bikeradar is in no way representative of the wider public interest in the sport of cycling. There are more posts here than in the track part a) because there's more to say about road cycling and b) I'd imagine a lot of people, like myself, came here because this forum is aligned with either pro-cycling or cycling +.

As for the 'track cycling is where the money is because it has more olymic medals available', then so be it. UK sports fans clearly see more value in an olympic medal than efforts in the Tour.

I know I personally rate a GT win higher than an olympic medal in cycling, but hey, I think track cycling is dull and lacks the same fierce competition.

The point is, different nations have different interests, and as such, different specialities. Those specialities are also suited to the area, usually. Road racing in the UK never has the same rhythm or feel to racing on the continent. Same in the States. Why mess with what is an excellent formula, instead of creating their own competitions.

Tom Butcher

We'll have to agree to disagree. Without going on at length I think this forum is fairly representative of people who have a general interest in cycling - and even on non cycling forums where the sport comes up it is generally the road (OK the Tour) that is discussed.

Possibly there is a section of the population who have no interest in cycling but do have some interest in the Olympics and so will watch a little bit of track there and maybe be familiar with Hoy and Pendleton - if there were more road races in the Olympics and less track then no doubt they'd watch more road cycling and less track. In other words it doesn't reflect any real interest in the particular sports - just a general interest in the Olympics.

I might watch a bit of shooting or diving at the Olympics - I suppose there is some interest in knowing that for these competitors this is the pinnacle of their sporting career - but I have no real interest in those sports and you couldn't use that to say I was more interested in shooting and diving than tiddlywinks or bog snorkelling - it's just that the latter aren't in the Olympics.

moray_gub

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

I think this is you just being silly, there is no chance of the Giro being being cut to two weeks

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Wouldn't Pat McQuaid by the guy who is silly? After all, he's the one who has said that this is the UCI's agenda. Hence, this thread.
Me? I don't care which riders ride either race, as long as the format stays roughly the same. Just keep it that for one week in May, we have more cycling to follow.

Moray Gub wrote:

Pat McQuaid said the Giro was getting cut to two weeks ? and if he did then he is being silly it aint gonna happen.

Yup, you ain't wrong there, MG.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/6707/ ... uelta.aspx

There are quite a few posters in this very forum who no so long ago were arguing for the Vuelta to be cut to two weeks, so as silly as PM is being he aint alone.