Max power down, but averages up?

Pokerface

Just noticing that I'm struggling to hit the same max (1s) power that I was doing just over a month ago.

But my 5s, 10s, 20s, 30s peak power is going up. Seems I can't hit the same heights as before, but can hold the power longer.

Also noticing that my longer efforts (10-20 mins) are getting easier.


Is this 'normal'? Just a phase? Or a function of the type of training I'm doing?


What say you, experts!?

SBezza

Not a power expert, but I would have thought it was most likely a function of the type of training you are doing.

Obviously not sure of what training you are currently doing though, so just a pure guess

meanredspider

Just a thought (and I'm no "expert") but what resting are you doing?

I'm trying the ithlete http://www.myithlete.com/ app just out of interest after a week or so off the bike last year improved my average speed by 1mph. So I'm a convert to proper resting and interested if this tool will help me.

Pokerface

SBezza wrote:

Not a power expert, but I would have thought it was most likely a function of the type of training you are doing.

Obviously not sure of what training you are currently doing though, so just a pure guess

Lots of L2 rides, with L3/L4 efforts (10 mins at a time). But also gym work (squats, etc for power) and practicing standing starts. It's the standing start type efforts that should generate the most power, but it seems the power is going down, not up!


As for rest and recovery - I get lots.


Just worrisome to see the power drop off so much (~75 watts of previous max) in the past month.

SBezza

If you were doing lots of L2 & L3/L4, would you not expect 1s power to fade a little. Surely if you start ramping up the standing starts this will increase will it not.

Is the power drop off from all of the starts you do, or is it just from the odd test with the PM, could it have just been a bad day?

mclarent

I've had the same experience, I think it's training type specific as I've been doing the same type of training, although without the weights.

Pokerface

SBezza wrote:

If you were doing lots of L2 & L3/L4, would you not expect 1s power to fade a little. Surely if you start ramping up the standing starts this will increase will it not.

Is the power drop off from all of the starts you do, or is it just from the odd test with the PM, could it have just been a bad day?

Standing starts only done once a week - but every ride I go on, I always try and do at least one all-out sprint effort (just 10 seconds or so, and always from a rolling start). I have always done this - and I have seen a decline in the 1s power in the last month. Not just 'a bad day' - but a pattern of decreasing power.

I suspect that as my training efforts become shorter (from 10 mins to 5 mins to 1 min) that the peak power will go up. I'm prepping for track racing (kilo and pursuit) so not worried about 20 min power right now! But the ability to get moving as fast as possible IS important!

SBezza

What has your coach said, is this something he would expect. I think that once you start doing the more focused kilo and pursuit training, then all of the 1s, 5s, 10s 30s powers will rise quite a bit. And hopefully with the base, you will raise them to higher levels than before.

Also have you been losing weight recently, could this be a reason?

Pokerface

SBezza wrote:

What has your coach said, is this something he would expect. I think that once you start doing the more focused kilo and pursuit training, then all of the 1s, 5s, 10s 30s powers will rise quite a bit. And hopefully with the base, you will raise them to higher levels than before.

Coach is away in Cali, Columbia for Track World Cup right now so out of touch. Won't be back for a few weeks

SBezza wrote:

Also have you been losing weight recently, could this be a reason?

Yes - the thought did occur to me, although any weight loss as of late has been very small and very slow. In general been eating more than when my power numbers were higher.

One thing that I am almost certain has affected the numbers is the switch back to round chainrings vs oval ones. I consistently produce higher peak power on oval rings. But I've taken that into account....

turnerjohn

meanredspider wrote:

Just a thought (and I'm no "expert") but what resting are you doing?

I'm trying the ithlete http://www.myithlete.com/ app just out of interest after a week or so off the bike last year improved my average speed by 1mph. So I'm a convert to proper resting and interested if this tool will help me.

+1 Im a bugger for overdoing it then wondering why i've gone poo !

jibberjim

1 second with the powertap is very dependant on sampling rates (as it averages over wheels revolutions and then by the second) I would ignore it especially since your peak 5 second is not going down which is a more reasonable time period to remove the sampling errors.

You also may well have simply been doing your 5 second efforts in a different / gear terrain etc. which does change what your peak force may be.

You'll also likely hit peak very short durations when well rested.

Look at the actual curves for your last few best 5 second efforts including the one with the peak 75watts above what you have at the end and see if you've changed how your sprint - but I'm not sure the PT will provide the data.

Chiggy

For balls out max 1s efforts, I'd be doing '1 rep to failure' on a Smiths machine.

1s rep with both legs is the same as 60 rpm.

I'd be resting for a good 15 minutes between sets with heat rub on my quads.

Jeff Jones

Pokerface wrote:

Just noticing that I'm struggling to hit the same max (1s) power that I was doing just over a month ago.

But my 5s, 10s, 20s, 30s peak power is going up. Seems I can't hit the same heights as before, but can hold the power longer.

I'd question the importance of having a better 1s power vs a better 5s power. Wouldn't the latter be more important for standing starts? Team sprint excepted maybe.

It could be a function of doing more L3/L4 training, or it could be an oval/round rings sampling difference.

Chiggy

Of course I don't do that kind of crap.

Cycling is about moving the legs lot and lots of times....

12 reps.....

Pokerface

Jeff Jones wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Just noticing that I'm struggling to hit the same max (1s) power that I was doing just over a month ago.

But my 5s, 10s, 20s, 30s peak power is going up. Seems I can't hit the same heights as before, but can hold the power longer.

I'd question the importance of having a better 1s power vs a better 5s power. Wouldn't the latter be more important for standing starts? Team sprint excepted maybe.

It could be a function of doing more L3/L4 training, or it could be an oval/round rings sampling difference.

I would have thought sustainable power is much more important! Especially over a pursuit.

Alex_Simmons/RST

jibberjim wrote:

1 second with the powertap is very dependant on sampling rates (as it averages over wheels revolutions and then by the second) I would ignore it especially since your peak 5 second is not going down which is a more reasonable time period to remove the sampling errors.

You also may well have simply been doing your 5 second efforts in a different / gear terrain etc. which does change what your peak force may be.

You'll also likely hit peak very short durations when well rested.

Look at the actual curves for your last few best 5 second efforts including the one with the peak 75watts above what you have at the end and see if you've changed how your sprint - but I'm not sure the PT will provide the data.

+1

1. 1-sec power from a Powertap is highly subject to sampling error to the extent that it should be ignored as a performance measure. You really can only trust an SRM power meter for such data.

2. Neuromuscular Power is highly (positively) responsive to freshness. If you have been building a little general fatigue from training, then it's not uncommon for NMP to suffer a little.

3. 1-sec power isn't going to win you anything in any case. There are other mean maximal power-durations that are far more important.

Pokerface

Thanks everyone. That is reassuring. I'm sure it will bounce back and as long as my power generally continues to build, I'll be happy!

Will be on the track starting in early Jan to test it all out so will have a much better idea then if the training is working!

Chiggy

Have you got a handheld blood lactate tester?

Pokerface

Chiggy wrote:

Have you got a handheld blood lactate tester?

I don't but the team physiologist does. She brings it to camps sometimes and we use it for various things. Helps everyone calculate how long they need to cool down after a max effort to clear the lactate for instance. Mine clears very quickly

StanwaySteve62

Anybody coming down the pub?..........I'll get me coat

Pokerface

Well - after all that - I went out today and hit a new PB for 1s power (and looking at the log it measured it over a 2s period so hopefully not just a blip).

Done on a slightly uphill sprint of about 15 seconds.

And came after a recovery day yesterday, so maybe I've just been a little fatigued after all. :oops:

Alex_Simmons/RST

Nice but have you listened to the bit that very short range power readings from a powertap are not a reliable measure?

5 seconds is the minimum I would trust.

If you are so focused on your 1 sec power, then invest in an SRM.

Pokerface

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Nice but have you listened to the bit that very short range power readings from a powertap are not a reliable measure?

5 seconds is the minimum I would trust.

If you are so focused on your 1 sec power, then invest in an SRM.

5s power was also up. 8)

Chiggy

What's the speed sensor in a PowerTap?

Toothed wheel and Variable Reluctance sensor? or an encoder?

If it's a toothed wheel, how many teeth? Eight? If its as low as eight, you won't get two leading edges to time between within a second at start off wheel speed to calc a rotational speed.

There are 60 on a motorcar engine crankshaft. with one missing, and two missing at 90 degs to determine rotation direction.

The chassis dyno I trained on had a 3600 bit encoder on a 500mm diameter roller , so no problem with getting a 0.5 kmh roadspeed; and it would hold that speed against all the power I could produce ( in 'Speed' mode, not RLS [Road Load Simulation] mode ), recording Watts as I strained. It recorded my decay as the minutes went by until it was just recording my bodyweight on the pedal as maximum.

If you're interested where to obtain such a piece of kit, Google 'Froude Hofmann Motorcycle chassis dynamometer'. Twelve years ago they were £125,000.00

Alex_Simmons/RST

Chiggy wrote:

What's the speed sensor in a PowerTap?

Like most power meters, it's a reed switch that triggers to measure time between rotations of the hub. The power algorithm assumes a constant rotational velocity. Nevertheless, aliasing is the primary reason why Powertap data for one second cannot be trusted. SRM does not have this issue since its average torque calculations are event based (each turn of crank), not time based (as with the PT).

No power meter registers instantaneously from a standing start but that is not an issue when already moving, as in doing flat sprints. Powertap has a recording delay of about 1-2 secs from dead stop. Recent SRM wired track models are the best for this purpose as they have have a double reed switch and trigger far more quickly.

It's one of the reason why max pedal force / max pedal velocity testing can really only be performed with an SRM. The other is the ability of the SRM to report power over much shorter time periods (0.5 seconds).