Steady State Ride Advice

sampras38

Hi all,

I was reading an article in Cycling weekly this month about steady state rides and I wondered if anyone could offer some advice on my training. I've been info fitness my whole life but riding what you might call seriously for 3.

To help I'll start by giving a little bit of background about me. Dabbled in most sports as a youngster and I was quite a serious bodybuilder in my youth and it pretty much dominated my life through my teens and early 20's. Then moved back to tennis and played at a high club level from mid 20's to mid 30's, then started riding more and more. Went from mountain biking on the road for a year, to the last 3 years of serious road riding (Sportives, club rides, Alps etc).

When it comes to sport or fitness I'm a pretty full on sort of person and tend to do things 100% or nothing. So in the last 3 years I've done gold times in sportives such as Hampshire Hilly 100, Southern Sportive, 3 Wales Dragons and 3 trips to the Alps.

I seem to have taken to it quite well but this year I want to try and get a bit quicker on the Sportives, for no other reason than I like to see how far I can push myself.

At the moment I train for about 10 hours or so, which is mainly 1 long ride on the weekend and turbo work in the week.

I'm trying to work out the best way of using my time, especially on the weekend rides, and wondered what people's views are on steady state riding. I often ride with a HR monitor but tend to ride in the red far more than is good for me.

If I slowed down on some of the weekend rides and kept it in the 65-75% range, how long do you think it would be before I started seeing results? Or how often should I be doing these zone 2 rides? Would I benefit ffrom doing them every other weekend?

I try to mix up my mid-week turbo work with the odd 2x20 or sufferfest session, or sometimes I'll just spin for an hour around the 75% mark.

I would really appreciate any comments.

Bronzie

sampras38 wrote:

I often ride with a HR monitor but tend to ride in the red far more than is good for me.

Questions:
1) What is your definition of "in the red"?
2) What makes you think this is not good for you?

If you are asking "should I stick religously to HR Zone 2 when doing endurance rides?" I think it's pointless and not very practical if you encounter any serious climbs in your route. Better to aim for an average HR in Zone 2 rather than stick to it for the whole ride.

sampras38 wrote:

If I slowed down on some of the weekend rides and kept it in the 65-75% range, how long do you think it would be before I started seeing results? Or how often should I be doing these zone 2 rides? Would I benefit ffrom doing them every other weekend?

Not sure you'd see any benefit to riding slower. If you are riding so fast you can't complete the ride or feel like death afterwards, then yeah, you could probably slow down a bit. Does this apply?

As to how often - well, depends on your time constraints, where you are in your training cycle etc. .............. but if you are training primarily for sportives then plenty of long steady rides are obviously going to be beneficial (specificity and all that).

sampras38

Bronzie wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

I often ride with a HR monitor but tend to ride in the red far more than is good for me.

Questions:
1) What is your definition of "in the red"?
2) What makes you think this is not good for you?

If you are asking "should I stick religously to HR Zone 2 when doing endurance rides?" I think it's pointless and not very practical if you encounter any serious climbs in your route. Better to aim for an average HR in Zone 2 rather than stick to it for the whole ride.

sampras38 wrote:

If I slowed down on some of the weekend rides and kept it in the 65-75% range, how long do you think it would be before I started seeing results? Or how often should I be doing these zone 2 rides? Would I benefit ffrom doing them every other weekend?

Not sure you'd see any benefit to riding slower. If you are riding so fast you can't complete the ride or feel like death afterwards, then yeah, you could probably slow down a bit. Does this apply?

As to how often - well, depends on your time constraints, where you are in your training cycle etc. .............. but if you are training primarily for sportives then plenty of long steady rides are obviously going to be beneficial (specificity and all that).

Thanks for replying Bronzie

I guess my idea of the red zone is either near my max HR or at least very close to it. Obviously i don't expect to stay in zone 2 on hills, and most of my rides to include them. I just wondered how much I would gain from an endurance point of view if i slowed down and spent more time around the 65-75% mark. I do enjoy riding fast and most of the time i'm pushing myself and can quite quickly get up to at least 80. The title of the original article was something like "ride slow to ride fast".

And in answer to your 2nd question, I'd like to think I know a little about over-training in geneal and I just wondered whether I was perhaps pushing myself a little too hard on my rides.

I'm quite pleased with my riding so far and club riding friends who have been riding years have said i seem to have a knack for it, and so I'd rather train smarter than harder (if that makes sense)

And i don't think I've ever not been able to complete a ride, no matter what the distance or terrain, and usually feel pretty good afterwards. Even after 4 or 5 hour rides in the Alps.

Chiggy

When you are riding along at 75% MHR, can you get along by breathing through your nose with your mouth shut? Not being rude but this is the threshold for CV training.

Riding along at below and up to 75% MHR is just wasting energy that could be used in CV and LT training at +80% and +90% intervals.

On the event, you will tuck in behind some other riders to conserve your energy until the last 5 miles or so. Then you will go for the line and take your HR up near 100%. If you haven't been there many times in training, your whole system is going to get an unpleasant surprise.

SteveR_100Milers

how do you know your max HR is correct? It's not easy to measure, and if you are using the built in one on your HRM (usually based on our age) then it will most likely be wildly inaccurate

SBezza

You don't say how long your long rides are, but I would expect if you do a 4 hour ride, your average would most likely be around the 75% mark no doubt.

If you can do a 4 hour ride at a more tempo pace, then you are very fit and strong obviously. Again if you can do this and do the remaining training with quality then obviously your are not doing anything wrong, and I doubt riding slower will benefit you.

Most riders will not be able to do this length of ride at a tempo pace, and as such they will have to back off to do the duration.

If I do an endurance ride, then although the endurance zone for me would be 70% to 80%, I will go out of this zone on hills, and possibly downhill, if it is not safe to keep the effort up. I aim to get an average within the zone, but do not ride 100% within the confines of the zone. I just don't push it hard up the hills, and then consequently have to have a few minutes breather to recover.

For sportives obviously hills will be handled differently to what I train for (TT's)

sampras38

Chiggy wrote:

When you are riding along at 75% MHR, can you get along by breathing through your nose with your mouth shut? Not being rude but this is the threshold for CV training.

Riding along at below and up to 75% MHR is just wasting energy that could be used in CV and LT training at +80% and +90% intervals.

On the event, you will tuck in behind some other riders to conserve your energy until the last 5 miles or so. Then you will go for the line and take your HR up near 100%. If you haven't been there many times in training, your whole system is going to get an unpleasant surprise.

Very useful post, thanks, and in answer to a few more questions. My usual weekend rides are anything from 2 to 4 and I can average around 17.5 to 18.5, depending on who I'm riding with. All my rides have hills (mostly short but anything from 5-15%, and every couple of months i'll take a trip to Box Hill and do a 60 miler that's in my Garmin, including all the major climbs of the area, i.e. Leigh Hill, etc.

sampras38

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

how do you know your max HR is correct? It's not easy to measure, and if you are using the built in one on your HRM (usually based on our age) then it will most likely be wildly inaccurate

I haven't been tested in a lab or anything but I've experimented with a handful of different methods on the turbo, and I think I'm pretty much around the 189/190 mark. At least somewhere close enough to use zones.

sampras38

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

how do you know your max HR is correct? It's not easy to measure, and if you are using the built in one on your HRM (usually based on our age) then it will most likely be wildly inaccurate

Sorry, I meant to add, I'm well aware that most of the formula's are way out.

jibberjim

sampras38 wrote:

Very useful post, thanks, and in answer to a few more questions. My usual weekend rides are anything from 2 to 4 and I can average around 17.5 to 18, depending on who I'm riding with.

Why not join a club and ride with their fast people on their training rides, you'll likely do a lot better from that than simply trying to ride easier...

Bronzie

sampras38 wrote:

I guess my idea of the red zone is either near my max HR or at least very close to it.

If you are regularly able to get near what you consider to be your max HR during an endurance ride, then I'd question whether your max HR is in fact correct. I'd really have to ride the hills flat out to reach anything like my max HR.

sampras38

Bronzie wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

I guess my idea of the red zone is either near my max HR or at least very close to it.

If you are regularly able to get near what you consider to be your max HR during an endurance ride, then I'd question whether your max HR is in fact correct. I'd really have to ride the hills flat out to reach anything like my max HR.

Agreed, and the only times I've ever seen what I think is my max, or a couple of beats under it, was on two occasions. One was on a ride around box hill when a few of us were racing each other up Coldharber Lane (got the reading near the top) and in a similar situation when 4 of us raced each other up Alp D'Uez. Obviously both occasions were unusual circumstances and I don't often get that close on normal rides.

On Sportives I try and keep an eye on it so I don't blow, but on normal training rides I often ride in the 85% range, sometimes higher. I just hate riding slow..;-)

sampras38

jibberjim wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

Very useful post, thanks, and in answer to a few more questions. My usual weekend rides are anything from 2 to 4 and I can average around 17.5 to 18, depending on who I'm riding with.

Why not join a club and ride with their fast people on their training rides, you'll likely do a lot better from that than simply trying to ride easier...

I have ridden with a couple (Dynamo's and Kingston Wheelers) but it's been difficult to commit to any club at the moment due to work and having 2 kids under 5. It's frustrating as I'm sure a club would really help me out but I'm just not able to commit to the times they ride. I grab my weekend rides when I can as it isn't always easy to get out for 3 or 4 hours. Sometimes I'm out very early in the morning but usually too early for the clubs.

Anonymous

You are probably best working off your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate as per Joe Friel's test rather than Max.

Have a look at this -

How to Train With Heart Rate (Cycling)

Determine your lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR) with a short test. (Do not use 220 minus your age as this is as likely to be wrong as right.) This LTHR test is best done before starting the training plan.
To find your LTHR do a 30-minute time trial all by yourself (no training partners and not in a race). Again, it should be done as if it was a race for the entire 30 minutes. But at 10 minutes into the test click the lap button on your heart rate monitor. When done look to see what your average heart rate was for the last 20 minutes. That number is an approximation of your LTHR. Note: I am frequently asked if you should go hard for the first 10 minutes. The answer is yes. Go hard for the entire 30 minutes. But be aware that most people doing this test go too hard the first few minutes and then gradually slow down for the remainder. That will give you inaccurate results. The more times you do this test the more accurate your LTHR will become as you will learn to pace yourself better at the start.

Bike Zones
Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR <_____
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR >_____

sampras38

NapoleonD wrote:

You are probably best working off your Lactate Threshold Heart Rate as per Joe Friel's test rather than Max.

Have a look at this -

How to Train With Heart Rate (Cycling)

Determine your lactate threshold heart rate (LTHR) with a short test. (Do not use 220 minus your age as this is as likely to be wrong as right.) This LTHR test is best done before starting the training plan.
To find your LTHR do a 30-minute time trial all by yourself (no training partners and not in a race). Again, it should be done as if it was a race for the entire 30 minutes. But at 10 minutes into the test click the lap button on your heart rate monitor. When done look to see what your average heart rate was for the last 20 minutes. That number is an approximation of your LTHR. Note: I am frequently asked if you should go hard for the first 10 minutes. The answer is yes. Go hard for the entire 30 minutes. But be aware that most people doing this test go too hard the first few minutes and then gradually slow down for the remainder. That will give you inaccurate results. The more times you do this test the more accurate your LTHR will become as you will learn to pace yourself better at the start.

Bike Zones
Zone 1 Less than 81% of LTHR <_____
Zone 2 81% to 89% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 3 90% to 93% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 4 94% to 99% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR _____ - _____
Zone 5c More than 106% of LTHR >_____

Thanks Nap, I'll give it a go.

Bronzie

sampras38 wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

I guess my idea of the red zone is either near my max HR or at least very close to it.

If you are regularly able to get near what you consider to be your max HR during an endurance ride, then I'd question whether your max HR is in fact correct. I'd really have to ride the hills flat out to reach anything like my max HR.

Agreed, and the only times I've ever seen what I think is my max, or a couple of beats under it, was on two occasions. I don't often get that close on normal rides.

on normal training rides I often ride in the 85% range, sometimes higher. I just hate riding slow..;-)

Now I'm confused - you started off saying you spent "too much time in the red........at or near MHR" ................but now you're saying the opposite. :?

FWIW I regularly get to around 90% MHR on the steeper hills during a long ride. I rarely go much higher than that though without REALLY trying. I don't think it's doing me any harm at all. At the end of the ride, if my average HR was in the 70-75% range, then I'm fairly satisfied.

sampras38

Bronzie wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

Bronzie wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

I guess my idea of the red zone is either near my max HR or at least very close to it.

If you are regularly able to get near what you consider to be your max HR during an endurance ride, then I'd question whether your max HR is in fact correct. I'd really have to ride the hills flat out to reach anything like my max HR.

Agreed, and the only times I've ever seen what I think is my max, or a couple of beats under it, was on two occasions. I don't often get that close on normal rides.

on normal training rides I often ride in the 85% range, sometimes higher. I just hate riding slow..;-)

Now I'm confused - you started off saying you spent "too much time in the red........at or near MHR" ................but now you're saying the opposite. :?

FWIW I regularly get to around 90% MHR on the steeper hills during a long ride. I rarely go much higher than that though without REALLY trying. I don't think it's doing me any harm at all. At the end of the ride, if my average HR was in the 70-75% range, then I'm fairly satisfied.

Sorry bronzie, and i understand how it might be confusing. I guess my terminology in the beginning was wrong. I'm probably not quite in the red and in the main, my training rides average around the 75% mark. i've seen a couple of readings on hills of around 183/184, and I'm pretty certain my max is around 190 and my rides are usually pretty undulating anyway.

I think I'm probably over-complicating things and trying to be too clever, but the question i was trying to answer is whether riding hard all the time will hinder my progress if i don't do regular steady state rides too.

SteveR_100Milers

Most would only achieve >95% MHR in an absolute all out short sprint as if your life depended on it. From experience, its difficult to walk / see / retain stomach contents after it, and I have only been to that place a couple of times....I'd be impressed if you could hit it on a turbo on your own with no adrenalin rush incentive to push you! If in any doubt add 5-10% on top - better to overestimate it slightly and train slightly harder perhaps. The danger is that you go to hard when you want to limit our effort on say a recovery ride, but then its easy to gauge that without an HRM.

sampras38

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Most would only achieve >95% MHR in an absolute all out short sprint as if your life depended on it. From experience, its difficult to walk / see / retain stomach contents after it, and I have only been to that place a couple of times....I'd be impressed if you could hit it on a turbo on your own with no adrenalin rush incentive to push you! If in any doubt add 5-10% on top - better to overestimate it slightly and train slightly harder perhaps. The danger is that you go to hard when you want to limit our effort on say a recovery ride, but then its easy to gauge that without an HRM.

You may have a point..

And thanks again for the advice all.

Bronzie

sampras38 wrote:

I think I'm probably over-complicating things

Yes, try and keep it simple when training with HR alone.............look at the bigger picture, not the detail. Are you doing sufficient volume in roughly the right intensity to suit the event you are training for?

sampras38 wrote:

the question i was trying to answer is whether riding hard all the time will hinder my progress if i don't do regular steady state rides too.

See also the recent "HR Zone to Avoid??" thread:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12745517

sampras38

Bronzie wrote:

sampras38 wrote:

I think I'm probably over-complicating things

Yes, try and keep it simple when training with HR alone.............look at the bigger picture, not the detail. Are you doing sufficient volume in roughly the right intensity to suit the event you are training for?

sampras38 wrote:

the question i was trying to answer is whether riding hard all the time will hinder my progress if i don't do regular steady state rides too.

See also the recent "HR Zone to Avoid??" thread:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12745517

Cheers..

I guess I must be doing something right if I'm getting golds in pretty much all the Sportives I do, considering I've not been in the sport that long...;-)

Appreciate the comments though.