Hog Hill fit for purpose? Views please

JackPozzi

I thought it had been confirmed the whole circuit would be used as long as the weather permitted?

EDIT: Just found this thread in the Eastern Road Race League forum which does suggest the whole circuit will be used http://forum.errl.org.uk//showthread.php?9284-Hog-Hill-Redbridge-Cycling-Centre-2011-Fixtures

Lion-O

yes i asked the question and i though the whole circuit would be used.

dulldave

So the consensus appears to be a thumbs up for Hog Hill. Not what the OP was hoping for I suspect but there you go.

Si C

terongi wrote:

+1 for the quality of Hog Hill.

A challenging course which feels a lot safer than the London alternatives.

Thanks to Plurien and others for providing such a good circuit.

My only disappointment as a Cat 4 is that the only the bottom circuit is available for the winter league. The whole point of going to Hog Hill is to be challenged by the hill on each lap which acts as an attrition for the weaker riders (me included), splits the bunch and can be the launch for attacks.

If I want to go round and round in flat circles in a big bunch I can go to Hillingdon.

Oh you are joking? I've been training and looking forward to the Winter Series for months. The whole point of that circuit is the challenge of the hill.

RoadieBob

As I posted in the winter series thread:

Guys, I e-mailed the organiser for this and they confirmed that it's not true that some races will be on the bottom circuit only. See below response -

"Decision tend to be made on the day. Circuit conditions, weather number of riders etc.

If I have 30 riders who want to ride on the bottom circuit then perhaps but two races at the same time unlikely."

alan_sherman

i used to enjoy eastway but have only raced hog hill once and don't see myself going back. Primarily it is the location as it is a lot more awkward to get to from putney than eastway was. Then when I get there i think the circuit isn't as nice as eastway. It feels too stop-start with all the tight turns and the hill. There is no smooth flowing section to bowl along. No show stopper, but the difficulty of getting there swings it. I'd rather go for a ride out into surrey! Hopefully the olympic park course will be good and is a decent ride there and back.
No cross or mtb experience, and no desire to tt on that course either! But then never tted at eastway either.

cookiemonster

Just to add to this - I raced at HH for the first time today. I wasnt expecting such a fantastic facility - the circuit is terrific, fast sweepy bits, a couple of tight technical corners and of course the hill at the end. In contrast to the OP, the variety works for me - especially when compared to the dullness that's hillingdon.

The other facilities are top notch too - changing rooms, cafe, spectator areas, the organisation - 5 somberos for the whole thing.

jon

LJAR

I am having a look at the HH winter series - what size are the fields for the 4th and 3rd cat races.

I had a look on the ELV website and they look pretty small to me.

Si C

LJAR wrote:

I am having a look at the HH winter series - what size are the fields for the 4th and 3rd cat races.

I had a look on the ELV website and they look pretty small to me.

At the moment they are only attracting 10-15 riders in 3rds and around the same in 4ths.

Why so few...I have no idea. Perhaps that hill scares some off.

Richj

I was planning on doing a couple of the winter league events at Hog Hill, unfortunately Decembers weather put my training on ice (excuse the pun) as most my training is commuting. I'm now in no fit state to race so will wait till later in the year.

Poor weather and lack of training I know has set a few peoples racing plans back

Si C

Richj wrote:

I was planning on doing a couple of the winter league events at Hog Hill, unfortunately Decembers weather put my training on ice (excuse the pun) as most my training is commuting. I'm now in no fit state to race so will wait till later in the year.

Poor weather and lack of training I know has set a few peoples racing plans back

I doubt that's any different for the people who are actually turning up and racing

Richj

Si C wrote:

Richj wrote:

I was planning on doing a couple of the winter league events at Hog Hill, unfortunately Decembers weather put my training on ice (excuse the pun) as most my training is commuting. I'm now in no fit state to race so will wait till later in the year.

Poor weather and lack of training I know has set a few peoples racing plans back

I doubt that's any different for the people who are actually turning up and racing

I'd agree, its just that I am using it as an excuse for not racing right now Hog Hill would be a good 4 hour round trip, if I personelly was going well I could justify it, but not when I am struggling like I am. I imagine I am not alone in the lack of training and just put it forward as a reason for the low numbers.

alanf

I took a fair bit of flack in this posting from people who think Hog Hill is wonderful. I thought that might be the case.

So I asked some of my cross colleagues what they thought of it as a venue for cross and it was uniformly negative. They told me they would not bother travelling to a cross event there again.

With regards to the road side of things it gets rave reviews from most of the posters on this thread.

I have to ask though, if it is that good why is the winter league getting fields of less than twenty? in each category.

If the climb is so popular why did the WL organisers initially announce that races would be only on the lower circuit?

Cost and location probably account for some of this, but Hillingdon's getting huge fields at the moment so its not a case of people not wanting to race.

Maybe its the fact that the "Fat Fighter" Sprinters (I include myself here) prefer to sit in and wait for the sprint which would be rather difficult at HH on the full circuit.

When you think about it tacking a full climb in legwarmers and 4 layers probably isnt everyones cup of tea this time of year.

I just worry that as predicted it looks like the ODA want to change the goalposts re the Eastway replacement and we may get left with Hog Hill because it is there already, so in their eyes we dont need a replacement at Eastway.

Selling Eastway land for houses will I predict be the outcome here, with the road circuit quietly dissapeering.

I hope i'm wrong .........

wjcrombie

The fields are improving at each event. Last weekend the 2/3 race had close to 30 and it was a good competitive race.
I think the main reason for the numbers being so different between Hillingdon and Hog Hill is due to the location. There is a very large catchement area for Hillingdon convering all of west London, South London, North London, the Midlands and everything in the reading direction. Hog hill is only really the easiest location to get to if you are living in east London or south London close to the river.

I have no idea if we will get to keep both Hog Hill and the Eastway circuit, but as a tax payer, I would prefer to save the money and have one or the other (assuming there is an incremental annual cost to the tax payer from each of these facilities). If I was forced to choose between the new Eastway and HH, I would choose HH simply because it is up and established and I know what I am getting, as opposed to the new eastway which is still an unknown quantity.

SBezza

Some of our club racers actually prefer Hillingdon, because it is easier than HH. Now that might be understandable, but once you get out on the road, these are generally harder courses than a circuit, so IMO it is better to race on the hardest course possible.

I will admit HH is not the best for CX, but that is mainly because the place turns into a massive mud bath, if it was drier it would be a good challenging CX course.

cookiemonster

Sure - one "problem" with HH as folk have said earlier, is that there is a good chance you'll get dropped All six races in the last two weeks have been won either by a solo break, a small group or fractured bunch. At Hillingdon anything thats not a bunch sprint is a rarity. Many riders perhaps dont want to take the chance that they'll fall off the back, and prefer to sit in a bunch for a mass sprint.

This is an interesting distinction and down to riders strengths, aspirations and fears (being dropped vs being taken off in the sprint), but more importantly its a far cry from "is Hog Hill fit for purpose?". Maybe you need to rename the thread "Hog Hill - fantastic cycling facility, is there anything that can be done to make it even better?"

notsoracy rich

I was lucky enough to ride the first ever Hog Hill event when the circuit opened. As a 4th cat I asked before the event if they would let 4th cats ride the E 1 2 3 event and luckily they did. I had ridden some E1234 events at Dunton and just managed to hang on so I knew I would be allright. Well the first lap was being filmed by the BBc so we kept the speed down- sorry, the big boys kept the speed down. ON the second lap the speed went up , and most of the 4th cats/vets went off the back and rode our own ride, its a steep hill, and if you're not strong enough you will get dropped. If you get dropped you never get your race fitness, so you get dropped the next time. This is where Eastway was much better, as it was a slightly less demanding circuit and eventuallly you could do more and more of a race getting better each time. Eastway was never easy, a lot of people hated it, myself included until I managed to improve enough to sort of enjoy it. I was hoping HogHill would be the same, and eventually I would master it, no pain no gain etc, but I am beginning to think it may never happen.

And it is very embarassing when you get dropped, because every lap all the spectators with their grandstand view KNOW you've been dropped.I don't look forward to racing at HogHill.

The design of the road circuit is such that water washes mud and tiny flints onto the circuit, you have to have very good tyres and a bit of luck not to puncture,especially in the winter.

The mens toilets only have 3 or 4 sitmedowns-OK with fields of 10-30, but at Eastway we had fields of 120+ for 3rd cat events.
Mens changing rooms OK BUT they don't open them all up-something to do with cleaning cost-so you often have to change while sitting on someones lap.
Car park nowhere near big enough , some larger summer events riders have to change in the country park down the road.Cars have been broken into at car park, and security cameras haven't recorded anything, I think at the time someone had stolen the security cameras.
In summary , yes Hoghill will do as an interim measure , but its nowhere near as good as Eastway was.,and I'll still ride there.

SBezza

notsoracy rich wrote:

If you get dropped you never get your race fitness, so you get dropped the next time. This is where Eastway was much better, as it was a slightly less demanding circuit and eventuallly you could do more and more of a race getting better each time.

How do you not get your race fitness, surely doing the race hard on your own gives you greater benefit that just freewheeling in the bunch. Or do you just quit once dropped?

The more demanding the circuit the better training stimulus IMO. To be honest most 4th cats would get dropped in a E/1/2/3 race no matter where the race was held.

DavidBelcher

wjcrombie wrote:

I think the main reason for the numbers being so different between Hillingdon and Hog Hill is due to the location. There is a very large catchement area for Hillingdon convering all of west London, South London, North London, the Midlands and everything in the reading direction.

Catchment area counts for a lot, and would agree that Hillingdon is better placed in terms of avoiding cross-London travel for a lot of people. I race there myself, and find it easy to reach by rail from Hampshire.

David

notsoracy rich

How do you not get your race fitness, surely doing the race hard on your own gives you greater benefit that just freewheeling in the bunch. Or do you just quit once dropped?

Speed

SBezza

notsoracy rich wrote:

How do you not get your race fitness, surely doing the race hard on your own gives you greater benefit that just freewheeling in the bunch. Or do you just quit once dropped?

Speed

No you don't get fit by going fast in a bunch, you get faster and fitter by upping your power, and you will not do this sitting in the bunch.

If you get dropped, work very hard trying to get back on, that will do more for your race fitness IMO.

Speed will come as you get fitter, and more powerful.

Anonymous

There is a bike circuit being built in gravesend which re-uses part of the old A2 which may prove more popular than Redbridge/hoghill in the longterm IMHO.

kieranb

Well, I have raced on both circuits (not CX or MTB), my prefernce, based only on the circuit, not facilities etc, would be for the Eastway circuit, the best bit was the back section after the hill where the race would be really wound up and stretched out prior to the turn into the finish straight. Currently Hog Hill (sorry HH to me is Herne Hill) would be my second favourite circuit in London, after Crystal Palace. Eastway v CP, not sure which!

Oh, I think plurien and others did a great job in getting Hog Hill instead of Rammy marsh!! The facilities at Hog Hill are fantastic as well. Oh, and I think, yes, it is fit for purpose.

frankieh

I like hog hill despite the fact I haven't even finished in the bunch there while I have won at Hillingdon. I'm looking forward to race the SFA crits at HH but not really bothered about going back to Hillingdon. Crystal Palace is the best 8)

alanf

"I just worry that as predicted it looks like the ODA want to change the goalposts re the Eastway replacement and we may get left with Hog Hill because it is there already, so in their eyes we dont need a replacement at Eastway.

Selling Eastway land for houses will I predict be the outcome here, with the road circuit quietly dissapeering.

I hope i'm wrong .........

Looks like I wasnt wrong unfortunately.

dawebbo

Is this confirmed?

I think HH is a great circuit and facilities. Just hate the roads to get there from the city.

alanf

No but the Legacy company have submitted new plans which if not challenged would make th road and offroad replacement next to useless.

Thick Tester

alanf wrote:

I have to ask though, if it is that good why is the winter league getting fields of less than twenty? in each category.

Winter racing should speak for itself

Theres a part of me that says Ok its a shared facility and to that extent it does differ, but you still have a facility - make the most of it ...

I tell you what, if Pig Hill had been up north we would have embraced it and got on with it and battered each other week in week out without all this moaning comparing it to what you had.

Tell me the last time you heard ANYONE complaining about any of the northern facilities that have been built in the last decade

maryka

Thick Tester wrote:

I tell you what, if Pig Hill had been up north we would have embraced it and got on with it and battered each other week in week out without all this moaning comparing it to what you had.

Tell me the last time you heard ANYONE complaining about any of the northern facilities that have been built in the last decade

Blah blah, things are rough up north, we should appreciate what we have down here, etc. etc. That's like saying even though someone is trampling my rights as a free person in this country, at least I don't live in <insert dictator state> where it would be a lot worse. So we should all be thankful for what we have and not try to improve it just because someone, somewhere in the world has it worse?

It would be nice if people could put together a rational argument without personal and emotional attachment. It doesn't MATTER what the situation in the north is, what matters here is the situation at Hog Hill/Eastway/Velopark. Whatever you do or don't have up north is irrelevant to the discussion.

mididoctors

hog hill is producing/showing higher caliber riders IMHO especially some of the youths