Hog Hill fit for purpose? Views please

alanf

IMO

Judging by yesterdays Cyclocross regional champs it really isnt suitable for Cross in the same way Eastway always was. Certainly the rank conditions didnt help but the race was a survival course and frankly cross as a sport has moved on from those days of a 39x27 slogs.

It works quite well as an MTB circuit but the Beastway entries are well down on the levels of yesteryear. This may be something to do with the location however.

As for the road , well i havent raced there but mates who have tell me that there is a general impression that the hilly course is too hard for many 4ths and the bottom circuit is a bit boring.

You cant fault the changing facilities but to this old soak it just doesnt have the vibe that the Eastway used to have and certainly Racing on the road there even I always thought I had a chance, but not in a month of sundays at Hog Hill.

Any one else got any views?

jibberjim

alanf wrote:

As for the road , well i havent raced there but mates who have tell me that there is a general impression that the hilly course is too hard for many 4ths and the bottom circuit is a bit boring.

So what if it's too hard for many 4ths? Not every circuit should be suitable for every rider to sit in to get a bunch finish, there are plenty flat easy circuits in the southeast of England, having one circuit which isn't is a good thing.

For me all of Hog Hills problems stem from its location, and the poor transport links (impossible to get there by train for an evening midweek race etc.) As a circuit I think it's a good one.

cougie

Too hilly for 4th cats ? Do they all have to get off and walk up the hill or something ?
HTFU.

Pross

What are these 4th cats going to do when they experience racing on roads? It will be like a TdF mountain stage :shock:

tugger

its not a mountain, its a hill... man up

SBezza

cougie wrote:

Too hilly for 4th cats ? Do they all have to get off and walk up the hill or something ?
HTFU.

+1

No point having an easy course for 4th cats, for them to get points and then have to suddenly tackle harder cat 3 racing on harder circuits.

If, as a racer, you can't handle the hill I would suggest better training. Racing should be a challenge.

chaffordred

I've raced as a 4th on Hog Hill a couple of times. The Hill is the only bit I look forward too as it's one of the only places on the circuit I get an opportunity to get a better position in the bunch. It's also good for doing hill repeats during midweek training.

I was looking forward to the Winter Series there until I found they are only using the bottom circuit and no hill.

I also find it's better doing the circuit anti-clockwise.

Tom Butcher

Not sure what being a 4th cat has got to do with it - there are going to be riders who can get up hills well relative to their peers and riders who can't in all categories. Good that people are building circuits with a bit of variety.

alanf

Interesting replies. Did any of you guys ever race at Eastway, if you did how does it compare for you?

Lion-O

i have raced both and like them both. eastway was easier to get round in the bunch if you were suffering a bit (but when the racing was full onit was not easy at all) but the hill at hog hill will soon catch you out if your suffering a bit. hog hill in my opinion is worth the 2 hr drive as its awesome training!

alanf

Thanks Lion thats the type of reply i was interested in not ones that were insulting.

Pross

alanf wrote:

Thanks Lion thats the type of reply i was interested in not ones that were insulting.

Why didn't you ask for a comparison of the 2 courses then rather than asking if Hog Hill was fit for purpose and that you'd been told it was too hard for 4th cats - you may have got more of the responses you were looking for then!

SBezza

Pross wrote:

alanf wrote:

Thanks Lion thats the type of reply i was interested in not ones that were insulting.

Why didn't you ask for a comparison of the 2 courses then rather than asking if Hog Hill was fit for purpose and that you'd been told it was too hard for 4th cats - you may have got more of the responses you were looking for then!

Still trying to find the insulting ones, have they been removed :roll:

At the end it doesn't matter how it compares to Eastway, Eastway is no more, and Hog Hill is the replacement for now. New Olympic Park course might be more like Eastway, but to ask if Hog Hill is fit for purpose is a joke. It is a cycle racing circuit that can be hard to race on, but racing is hard. Of course it is fit for purpose.

alanf

I think your missing the point your only looking at it from a Road perspective. When Hog Hill replaced Eastway it was sold to us that it was fit for all the disciplines that Eastway was good for, from my own perspective it certainly isnt a decent cross venue and added to the points that have been made about the road course - not by me i hasten to add- I just wonder if we have been a bit let down. I know the grass was always greener etc etc but we will never get Eastway or anything like it back. My own opinion is that after the Olympics buisness interests will quickly erode any promises made today and a decent replacement for the Eastway will not be provided which means that we will be stuck with Hog Hill as a permanent replacement rather than a temporary one. You just have to take a look at the countries finances to realise that.

BeaconRuth

alanf wrote:

............we will be stuck with Hog Hill as a permanent replacement rather than a temporary one.

You're reminding me of the Daily Mail writer who is moaning that she can no longer afford to shop at Harrods for Christmas presents. I haven't raced at Hog Hill but I have been there several times and I would say it's a fantastic facility. (Eastway must have been one helluva place to have been so much better.) Anyone who lives close enough to Hog Hill to use it regularly should count themselves extremely lucky because the rest of us don't have a facility anything like as good which we can use regularly.

Ruth

racingcondor

I can't comment on it off road but on road it's an excellent crit circuit, particularly for 4th Cats as the ones who aren't fit enough might actually get dropped (unlike Hillingdon or Goodwood) and it's wide enough that you hardly ever run out of width and the surface is better than anywhere else I've been.

Anyone who thinks Hog Hill is hard for 4th Cats should try Palace... If racing was easy there wouldn't be much point in it would there?

Lion-O

i should point out that i was looking at the road aspect only.

Pross

BeaconRuth wrote:

alanf wrote:

............we will be stuck with Hog Hill as a permanent replacement rather than a temporary one.

You're reminding me of the Daily Mail writer who is moaning that she can no longer afford to shop at Harrods for Christmas presents. I haven't raced at Hog Hill but I have been there several times and I would say it's a fantastic facility. (Eastway must have been one helluva place to have been so much better.) Anyone who lives close enough to Hog Hill to use it regularly should count themselves extremely lucky because the rest of us don't have a facility anything like as good which we can use regularly.

Ruth

+1 I'm not a fan of closed circuit races but most of the country get a choice of an old old airfield / motor circuit or nothing. It seems that those in the London area are a bit spoilt!

By the way, as you asked for comments on the race section of a road forum is it really a surprise that the answers have been from a roadie perspective?

alanf

Pross this is what it says on the header of the Amateur forum.

"Amateur Race
Talk about your races - Time Trials, Road Races or Cyclocross".

By the way I live no where near Hog Hill I am about 90 miles away.

Ruth please dont accuse me of being like a Daily Mail reader.
By your own admission you never raced at Eastway and havent yet at Hog Hill so how can you comment? You are obviously ignorant of the political battles that went on before the Eastway finally closed.

My point of this thread was that when we the users of Eastway had to give it up we were promised certain things. One of those things was that Hog Hill would be equal to the Eastway which it isnt, certainly from an cyclocross point of view.

Also my understaning is that Hog Hill is temporary until the Olympics is over and i am not sure if the plan is to keep it open or to close it, perhaps someone out there knows the true position on this.

Pross

You've already got experience of it from a cyclo cross point of view so of those headings there is only road and time trial left. The general opinion seems to be that it is a pretty good road racing circuit, I'm not sure if it gets used for time trials so you are basically asking if anyone agrees with you that it isn't a very good cross circuit then? :?

alanf

No i guess im asking basically for people who knew what Eastway was like, wether the whole package of racing compares.

Bearing in mind Eastway had loads of Cross in the winter always good courses,

Beastway in the Summer had pretty good courses, and the Roadracing, Timetrials were pretty good and added to this it was easier to get too.

My opinion is that HH is not as good from a racing perspective, this is shared by other riders i know. I just think its a bit sad thats all and i wanted to find out what others thought.

BeaconRuth

alanf wrote:

Ruth please dont accuse me of being like a Daily Mail reader.

I didn't accuse you of being like a Daily Mail reader, I said you reminded me of a certain Daily Mail writer (whose piece about Christmas was discussed in Cakestop recently).

By your own admission you never raced at Eastway and havent yet at Hog Hill so how can you comment?

Well, I have ridden there and I have coached there and those visits were enough to make me wish I could race there............ so I think I'm allowed to comment that Hog Hill is a facility which makes me envious of those who use it regularly? Or was nobody supposed to answer your initial question who had not raced at Hog Hill?

You are obviously ignorant of the political battles that went on before the Eastway finally closed.

I'm not ignorant that there were political battles but I didn't follow them closely.

My point of this thread was that when we the users of Eastway had to give it up we were promised certain things. One of those things was that Hog Hill would be equal to the Eastway which it isnt, certainly from an cyclocross point of view.

Why is it inadequate as a cyclocross venue? (Genuine question - I'm not asking because I think that it is.) I'm very new to 'cross but it seems to me that there's room for a whole variety of different types of 'cross course - some are going to suit some people and others will suit others. Some are great courses but only in the right weather conditions. Is it possible that Hog Hill just doesn't have the kind of 'cross terrain that you prefer?

Also my understaning is that Hog Hill is temporary until the Olympics is over and i am not sure if the plan is to keep it open or to close it, perhaps someone out there knows the true position on this.

Well, at a guess, it's unlikely that anyone on this forum knows. Try Veloriders if you want some informed answers (and fireworks) on this subject. It seems like we're overwhelmingly pro-Hog Hill round here.

Ruth

plurien

Well as the organiser of the race you didn't like and one of the people responsible for getting Hog Hill provided, paid for and designed I suppose I could declare an interest.
The course you didn't like did conform to the regulations in detail and in spirit.All long grass and undergrowth had been cut and cleared out the way before the bad weather started. On the day it was technical, it was sloppy, it was fast and it was wide. It was all rideable apart from one bank, but many were opting to run a couple of short sections. Maybe you don't like mud, but it's hard to do cross without that and a few hills offering the occasional loss od traction and / or steering.
You weren't racing round a sports field with a token stretch of wooded singletrack, a dodgy bit with dog-walkers and some service roads to bunny-hop round the back of a school/college building and I recognise that's what cross is taken to be. But on a day when many other regional championsihps were cancellled, we had worked hard to make sure it was race on, and you received an email telling you that as well as one with the results about four hours after the end of racing. I got many messages congratulating me and the team for a great event. There was a lot of prize money for those at the pointy end - but I recognise I can't please all the people all the time on any single venue

The road circuit offers about 28m change in elevation per lap. Depending whose figures you believe that's only about 6m more than Eastway, but the difference is that Eastway's main hill was approached from a steep descent that give a lot of speed. It also only offered one loop. Hog Hill has a flat 1km circuit and it's longer than many at 2km, or more if you incorporate the alpine turns put into make the upper circuit more interesting. Many others have made comment about the surface, the grading and the racing ther - It's great training and racing. You can do lap after lap without going on the brakes if you're technically able and the hill comes round every three minutes, whch is ideal. (2 mins at Eastway) . Certainly all the youth categories that raced their national champs there in July had a good time.
Funding for Hog Hill comes to an end in 2013because it was provided as a relocation. It may live on after, but it rests with the local Authority to decide on that. We're doing our best in the Eastway Users' Group to secure a proper legacy from the Games, but the plan jointly developed over the last two years is on the brink of the bin, so instead of a circuit up to the old Eastway standard we really aren't sure right now what's to come.
- If we were to ask you to send a letter and turn out on a demo, Alan, would you be there?

SBezza

I have raced both CX and RR at Hog Hill, and both are tough courses that is without a doubt, but it is still fit for purpose. Not sure why the fact it is hard is an issue, racing should be hard.

The nature of the land means that is wet weather it does turn into a mudfest, but that is what CX is about. I would rather have a hard race at HH, than boring race around a school playing field.

BeaconRuth

@plurien - great contribution, thank you. To this thread, but more importantly to the sport. One of the extremely hardworking people who are the lifeblood of cyclocross and probably don't receive all the thanks they deserve.

Ruth

DavidBelcher

+1 to both Steve's and Ruth's postings above. Except under rare circumstances, you can't expect to do cross and not encounter a bit of boggy stuff. Personally I find the warmer season-openers on drier, harder ground tougher going than when the ground's soft. If I don't like a course it usually tends to be due to shortcomings in my own ability (I can't corner for toffee in slippy conditions or at speed when off-road; I tend to make up ground by being an OK climber though) rather than bad course design - after all, what somebody might loathe may well suit someone else down to the ground.
Having done "behind the scenes" work at both a BUSA championship and a National Trophy event, I don't think organisers always get the credit they're due - designing and setting out a course is no mean feat, and securing a venue isn't always cheap and depends on a lot of co-operation with local councils etc.

David

phersey

Hog Hill is an absolutely top class facility and in many ways better than Eastway. The circuit racing is tough and more selective than Eastway was. There are far fewer pile ups with the uphill finish. The surface has loads of grip, even in the wet.

The circuit is used for timetrialling - ECCA, Shaftesbury CC and Lea Valley had 10 mile events there this year. Its a fantastic test of bike handling and pacing - times are a little bit slower than Eastway.

phersey

Hog Hill is an absolutely top class facility and in many ways better than Eastway. The circuit racing is tough and more selective than Eastway was. There are far fewer pile ups with the uphill finish. The surface has loads of grip, even in the wet.

The circuit is used for timetrialling - ECCA, Shaftesbury CC and Lea Valley had 10 mile events there this year. Its a fantastic test of bike handling and pacing - times are a little bit slower than Eastway.

amc

Another big thumbs up for HH - and i cannot believe some are moaning about it. If it's too hard, then go somewhere else. I don't do Cross but from what I gather riders tend to bemoan the circuits being too easy.
Sadly, Eastway is no longer with us (currently) but isn't great that with the ridiculous cost of land, health and safety rules and a general apathy on sports spending that with have HH at all.

Long live the Hog, i say.

jonmack

I've only seen video footage of HH and I can say without any hesitation that I would love to ride there. The track looks to have everything, climbs, decent descents, and nice corners.

Hopefully I'll be able to get over there sometime next year.

terongi

+1 for the quality of Hog Hill.

A challenging course which feels a lot safer than the London alternatives.

Thanks to Plurien and others for providing such a good circuit.

My only disappointment as a Cat 4 is that the only the bottom circuit is available for the winter league. The whole point of going to Hog Hill is to be challenged by the hill on each lap which acts as an attrition for the weaker riders (me included), splits the bunch and can be the launch for attacks.

If I want to go round and round in flat circles in a big bunch I can go to Hillingdon.