heart rate zone to avoid??

dieselgeezer

An oldish BCF Training Guideline had Level 2 as 35-45 bpm below max and Level 3 as 15-25 bpm below max. In other words, no training from 25-35 bpm below max. Although it doesn't state why in this publication I've read elsewhere of similar avoidance of this zone as it's too hard for quality base training but not hard enough for threshold training. However, lots of other training manuals don't have such an "avoidance zone".
Anyone got any useful comments?

dennisn

An article in the December issue of Outside magazine has an article about the "black hole" of training. This "hole" being "middle of the road" training. Long story short, they say that to improve you must train harder AND easier. Hard days should leave you gasping and easy days should feel boring, slow, and leave you refreshed. This "black hole" is any kind of training inbetween the two. You know, those days when you go out and ride kinda hard. Strangly enough avoiding "black hole" training is very hard. Many, many riders simply do the same thing over and over, day after day. It's ok to do this but you won't improve above a certain point. It is very hard for lots of people to get their training under control. They try to train hard every day. It doesn't work. Plus people haven't learned how to restrain themselves on what should be a recovery day and end up exhausting themselves hammering away with their riding buddies.

SteveR_100Milers

I'd say anything over 100% MHR...

inseine

I'd say anything over 100% MHR...

Less than 0% can be dodgy too.

danlikesbikes

inseine wrote:

I'd say anything over 100% MHR...

Less than 0% can be dodgy too.

Either as they both stop you from breathing which in itself can be bad for training

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

An article in the December issue of Outside magazine has an article about the "black hole" of training. This "hole" being "middle of the road" training. Long story short, they say that to improve you must train harder AND easier.

There is no "zone" to avoid but as you rightly point out, it's about changing the training stimulus as that is required for progression.

Thoughts of a "no-man's land" of training level/zone is bunkum. Training adaptations are induced at all levels above recovery.

oldwelshman

I dont know what the zone is or heart rate it is but I can feel it both on road and track. It is when riders push a bit and go pretty quick ( for me seems about 19/20mph on road and about 28mph on track (av speed) which is too hard for warmup or base miles but not hard enough to be high intensity.
This happnes more on track training I do with some more inexperienced track riders or some who try to impress then get dropped when speed goes up
Funny thing is some good triathles do the same on the road, go quite fast then get dropped on fast ride to the cafe when it gets ripped up

dennisn

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

An article in the December issue of Outside magazine has an article about the "black hole" of training. This "hole" being "middle of the road" training. Long story short, they say that to improve you must train harder AND easier.

There is no "zone" to avoid but as you rightly point out, it's about changing the training stimulus as that is required for progression.

Thoughts of a "no-man's land" of training level/zone is bunkum. Training adaptations are induced at all levels above recovery.

I was sort of trying to point out that so many of us fall into the area of same old, same old thing everyday, which sort of translates into a "no mans land" of just out riding around and won't translate to fitness progress. I'm like a lot of folks(only older) who start out each year saying, I'm going to train RIGHT this year and make some progress, only to somehow fall into that "black hole" of hammering with the guys(and myself) on a daily basis and slowly burning out over the course of the season. And making pretty much zero improvement. The guys who can resist that kind of every day - same thing - are the ones who can get better. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people going out and same old, same old everyday. They're getting excercise and that's the name of the game.

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

An article in the December issue of Outside magazine has an article about the "black hole" of training. This "hole" being "middle of the road" training. Long story short, they say that to improve you must train harder AND easier.

There is no "zone" to avoid but as you rightly point out, it's about changing the training stimulus as that is required for progression.

Thoughts of a "no-man's land" of training level/zone is bunkum. Training adaptations are induced at all levels above recovery.

I was sort of trying to point out that so many of us fall into the area of same old, same old thing everyday, which sort of translates into a "no mans land" of just out riding around and won't translate to fitness progress. I'm like a lot of folks(only older) who start out each year saying, I'm going to train RIGHT this year and make some progress, only to somehow fall into that "black hole" of hammering with the guys(and myself) on a daily basis and slowly burning out over the course of the season. And making pretty much zero improvement. The guys who can resist that kind of every day - same thing - are the ones who can get better. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people going out and same old, same old everyday. They're getting excercise and that's the name of the game.

You "get it", but perhaps don't execute it.

That "black hole" level is fine. Provided there's other stimulus in the mix and the loads are progressively and sustainably increased. I think it's the latter point that is often lost with such training.

All I've been doing is "black hole zone" and sweet spot training (but no threshold work) for a 6-week block now and over last two weekends I set a 30 second PB over an 8km TT and then a 75 seconds PB over a 25km TT. Just through sustainably increasing training loads.

Of course there comes a time when one must lift the power.

Chiggy

HR is merely a 'Tachometer' of your work intensity.

You will know whether its been worthwhile a few hours later when your legs have a slight aching feeling and running downstairs makes them ache more.

Two days later, your legs will feel fine and then you have an option. a/ Use the same intensity and not ache, or b/ up the intensity and ache for a day.

I take option b/.

SteveR_100Milers

Danlikesbikes wrote:

inseine wrote:

I'd say anything over 100% MHR...

Less than 0% can be dodgy too.

Either as they both stop you from breathing which in itself can be bad for training

I was thinking of having my VO2 min measured too....

dennisn

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

dennisn wrote:

An article in the December issue of Outside magazine has an article about the "black hole" of training. This "hole" being "middle of the road" training. Long story short, they say that to improve you must train harder AND easier.

There is no "zone" to avoid but as you rightly point out, it's about changing the training stimulus as that is required for progression.

Thoughts of a "no-man's land" of training level/zone is bunkum. Training adaptations are induced at all levels above recovery.

I was sort of trying to point out that so many of us fall into the area of same old, same old thing everyday, which sort of translates into a "no mans land" of just out riding around and won't translate to fitness progress. I'm like a lot of folks(only older) who start out each year saying, I'm going to train RIGHT this year and make some progress, only to somehow fall into that "black hole" of hammering with the guys(and myself) on a daily basis and slowly burning out over the course of the season. And making pretty much zero improvement. The guys who can resist that kind of every day - same thing - are the ones who can get better. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with people going out and same old, same old everyday. They're getting excercise and that's the name of the game.

You "get it", but perhaps don't execute it.

Oh yeah, I definately "get it" and it's definately an "execution" problem. Sort of like dieting. Pretty much everyone knows how to do it but once again execution of it very often falls apart.