Cyclists killed in Italy

cjcp

Christ.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ds-newsxml

Plod

Horrendous.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Jesus. Sunrocket for that mofo.

In all seriousness, how the fnckity fnck can someone overtaking on a clear dry day do that much harm? Even with dope in him? You'd be struggling to do that much damage if you set off with homicidal intent.

What that cock5ucker has wrought beggars belief.

CiB

That's not a good thing to come across on a Sunday afternoon just before Christmas

Wonder how long before the Mail commentards veer off down the usual path...

rolf_f

cjcp wrote:

Christ.

Not much else to say other than +1. I do hope the driver is done for murder for this. Be good if we actually do find out - doesn't seem to be anything in terms of follow up about that Mexican crash.

airbusboy

A typical driver trying to shave a few seconds off their car journey. Completely unacceptable... I hope the law takes the hard line with this individual.

jeremyrundle

How must the poor ten year old drivers child feel. Poor cyclists families.

sc999cs

8 cyclists died but I wonder how many other victims there are? I'm thinking of partners, parents, children, the driver's 10 year old son. All these lives ruined in a few seconds. Very sad.

Omar Little

that is terrible...the pictures are so sad

Zachariah

airbusboy wrote:

A typical driver trying to shave a few seconds off their car journey. Completely unacceptable... I hope the law takes the hard line with this individual.

Nope. This was far from typical. This was a man who chose to drive himself and his own son in a large, powerful car while he was high, and while he was banned from doing so by a previous conviction for dangerous driving. This is a man who almost certainly fits the clinical description of a psychopath.

CiB

airbusboy wrote:

A typical driver trying to shave a few seconds off their car journey. Completely unacceptable... I hope the law takes the hard line with this individual.

Killing eight in one go is pretty likely to result in the law taking a hard line I'd have thought.

Rolf F wrote:

cjcp wrote:

Christ.

Not much else to say other than +1. I do hope the driver is done for murder for this.

Unless Italy has a different definition of murder though, that's unlikely. Whatever mitigation the driver might try to come up with, it's unlikely he set out with the intention of killing any of these cyclists, ergo he won't be charged with murder.

I wouldn't fancy being in his shoes right now though, especially now the effects of his coke trip have worn off and he's faced with the enormity of what he's done to eight cyclists, eight families and lord knows how many different people who'll be affected in some way by this.

sc999cs

Slightly different version of the story on the Telegraph. In this version the driver was coming the opposite direction and hit the group head on.

jonginge

Holy moly! That's awful.

rolf_f

CiB wrote:

Unless Italy has a different definition of murder though, that's unlikely. Whatever mitigation the driver might try to come up with, it's unlikely he set out with the intention of killing any of these cyclists, ergo he won't be charged with murder.

It possibly does - this from the original article: Police said the driver of the car was facing charges of multiple culpable murder and that his ten-year -old son who was in the car with him at the time was also slightly hurt.

You could argue that his history implies that he did set out to kill. After all, if you get told off for wandering through crowds jabbing a carving knife infront of you, and then do it again and kill someone, you can hardly claim a lack of intent. The only real defence is one of sheer rank stupidity and I hope that isn't allowed.

GyatsoLa

The Reuters report says that he was overtaking other cars and hit the cyclists head on - this seems much more likely than the Mail report that he was overtaking the riders.

According to Wikipedia, multiple manslaughter has a maximum penalty of 12 years in Italy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(Italian_law)

There was a case a few years ago when a drunk driver killed two Irish women in Rome - he got seven years jail.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ire ... 46977.html

From what I understand of that incident, this guy was wealthy and well connected. I doubt if a Moroccan with previous convictions would get away with a lesser sentence.

bigmat

I can't see how its murder - there appears to be no intent. Should be manslaughter though, or the Italian equivalent. All very sad.

tailwindhome

From Wikipedia -

The elements of common law murder are:

the killing
of a human being
by another human being
with malice aforethought.

<snip>

with malice aforethought—originally "malice aforethought" carried its everyday meaning—a deliberate and premeditated killing of another motivated by ill will. Murder necessarily required that an appreciable time pass between the formation and execution of the intent to kill. The courts broadened the scope of murder by eliminating the requirement of actual premeditation and deliberation as well as true malice. All that was required for malice aforethought to exist is that the perpetrator act with one of the four states of mind that constitutes "malice".

The four states of mind recognized as constituting "malice" are:

Intent to kill,
Intent to inflict grievous bodily harm short of death,
Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), or
Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" doctrine).


<snip>

Under state of mind (iii), an "abandoned and malignant heart", the killing must result from defendant's conduct involving a reckless indifference to human life and a conscious disregard of an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily injury. An example of this is a 2007 law in California where an individual could be convicted of third-degree murder if he or she kills another person while operating a motor vehicle while being under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or controlled substances.

Don't know how accurate this is (it is wikipedia), or if I've misinterpreted or omitted something but it seems like Murder to me.

dilemna

RIP the 8 cyclists already killed. 4 are still in a critical condition so the death toll might rise.

The moton must have been driving like a frikin' lunatic.

According to the DM report many of the emergency personnel knew the cylcists so it was even more distressing for them.

We have had similar in the UK several years ago Dalgere (sorry about the spelling) where a car with bald tyres, skidded and took down a peloton killing riders. The moton got off with a slapped wrist.

Perhaps it's time motons whose driving results in people dying where their drivng has amounted to gross negligence/criminal manslaughter or murder that they face the ultimate penalty themselves.

dreamlx10

A typical driver

Hardly typical, a Moroccan illegal immigrant, previosly banned from driving, and driving under the influence of drugs with a chid in the car ! More like an M3 to me than a typical driver.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Italy-Eight-Cyclists-Die-After-Being-Hit-By-A-Car-In-Marinella-SantEufemia-near-Lamezia-Terme/Article/201012115848236?f=rss

SamWise72

MatHammond wrote:

I can't see how its murder - there appears to be no intent. Should be manslaughter though, or the Italian equivalent. All very sad.

I suspect that's what "culpable murder" is, though that's nothing more than an educated guess.

itboffin

WTF taking a life is unforgivable any way it happens taking 8 in one go!! save the money on legal fees and shoot the SoB - yeh I know i've just contradicted myself but seriously killing 8 people.

Tonymufc

airbusboy wrote:

A typical driver trying to shave a few seconds off their car journey. Completely unacceptable... I hope the law takes the hard line with this individual.

He's not a typical driver, he was high on drugs. And he had his young son with him who was also hurt as a result of his actions. Lets hope the Italian justice system is a little better than ours.

fnegroni

According to Italian law, any case where where someone is killed, whether by accident or not, is immediately investigated as a murder case, and the person suspected of perpetrating the murder is immediately given a murder warrant.

londonlivvy

According to Corriere della Sera :
- 10 year old wasn't his son, it was his nephew.
- three seriously wounded in hospital (one in Catanzaro, 2 in Cosenza)
- 7 dead
- neither driver nor nephew's state of health are a concern.
- driver has been arrested for omicidio colposo (manslaughter).

There's a long radio interview with one of the rescuers but my italian struggled with that!

The Rookie

In the UK it would not be murder, of course the word used after culpable may not directly translate into English so they used murder, though homicide is more likely (using English (US)) besides its journo's and they rarely let a need for accuracy spoil a good story!

Simon

jeremyrundle

I know people will disgree but as a single father of three, I believe that anyone caught drink, drug driving should be banned for life before they take a life.

I have NEVER smoked with my sons, I gave up the day my first arrived, and NEVER drank as I never knew if I would need to drive them the next day.

I could never live with myself killing another there is a difference between an genuine accident and murder like this.

bigmat

jeremyrundle wrote:

I know people will disgree but as a single father of three, I believe that anyone caught drink, drug driving should be banned for life before they take a life.

I have NEVER smoked with my sons, I gave up the day my first arrived, and NEVER drank as I never knew if I would need to drive them the next day.

I could never live with myself killing another there is a difference between an genuine accident and murder like this.

Without wanting to detract from the gravity of the offence, on the basis of the available information it appears that there is no basis to call this murder. The guy didn't mean to kill them. He didn't mean to hurt them. Hell, he probably didn't even see them.

A lot of us could probably envisage a situation where we might be a bit hungover the morning after, get behind the wheel of a car, get in an accident, somebody dies... We would have done a shocking thing, inexcusable, but would we be a murderer?

(I should add for clarity that I NEVER drink and drive, am extremely careful about driving the morning after, don't do drugs etc. etc. I still think the above stands though)

jeremyrundle

A lot of us could probably envisage a situation where we might be a bit hungover the morning after, get behind the wheel of a car, get in an accident, somebody dies... We would have done a shocking thing, inexcusable, but would we be a murderer?

(I should add for clarity that I NEVER drink and drive, am extremely careful about driving the morning after, don't do drugs etc. etc. I still think the above stands though)

---

NO I NEVER WOULD, I would NEVER drink and drive even the next day, this may not be murder in law but being high on drugs is murder to me, NOT an accident. I have never been "hung over" and driven the next day. 0 drink and 0 drug levels when driving/motorbiking,.

mybreakfastconsisted

dilemna wrote:

RIP the 8 cyclists already killed. 4 are still in a critical condition so the death toll might rise.

The moton must have been driving like a frikin' lunatic.

According to the DM report many of the emergency personnel knew the cylcists so it was even more distressing for them.

We have had similar in the UK several years ago Dalgere (sorry about the spelling) where a car with bald tyres, skidded and took down a peloton killing riders. The moton got off with a slapped wrist.

Perhaps it's time motons whose driving results in people dying where their drivng has amounted to gross negligence/criminal manslaughter or murder that they face the ultimate penalty themselves.

I sincerely hope this investigation is better than the Rhyl case, where the police made a gigantic cock up of the inquiry from beginning to end, from declaring the driver innocent at the scene before the investigation had begun to failing to issue proceedings in time for the driver to be charged with anything worthwhile.

spen666

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

dilemna wrote:

RIP the 8 cyclists already killed. 4 are still in a critical condition so the death toll might rise.

The moton must have been driving like a frikin' lunatic.

According to the DM report many of the emergency personnel knew the cylcists so it was even more distressing for them.

We have had similar in the UK several years ago Dalgere (sorry about the spelling) where a car with bald tyres, skidded and took down a peloton killing riders. The moton got off with a slapped wrist.

Perhaps it's time motons whose driving results in people dying where their drivng has amounted to gross negligence/criminal manslaughter or murder that they face the ultimate penalty themselves.

I sincerely hope this investigation is better than the Rhyl case, where the police made a gigantic fool up of the inquiry from beginning to end, from declaring the driver innocent at the scene before the investigation had begun to failing to issue proceedings in time for the driver to be charged with anything worthwhile.

+!

Re the Rhyl case, I think the police/ CPS were knackered in issuing proceedings for anything substantive after that earlier statement. That gave driver a defence to most allegations and mae it almost impossible for charges to succeed based on the driving

It was an appaling piece of policing

cjcp

spen666 wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

dilemna wrote:

RIP the 8 cyclists already killed. 4 are still in a critical condition so the death toll might rise.

The moton must have been driving like a frikin' lunatic.

According to the DM report many of the emergency personnel knew the cylcists so it was even more distressing for them.

We have had similar in the UK several years ago Dalgere (sorry about the spelling) where a car with bald tyres, skidded and took down a peloton killing riders. The moton got off with a slapped wrist.

Perhaps it's time motons whose driving results in people dying where their drivng has amounted to gross negligence/criminal manslaughter or murder that they face the ultimate penalty themselves.

I sincerely hope this investigation is better than the Rhyl case, where the police made a gigantic fool up of the inquiry from beginning to end, from declaring the driver innocent at the scene before the investigation had begun to failing to issue proceedings in time for the driver to be charged with anything worthwhile.

+!

Re the Rhyl case, I think the police/ CPS were knackered in issuing proceedings for anything substantive after that earlier statement. That gave driver a defence to most allegations and mae it almost impossible for charges to succeed based on the driving

It was an appaling piece of policing

What happened? I thought there was an argument that the car hit a patch of ice and couldn't stop.