Last Clean TdF Winner

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Comments

  • sampras38
    sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    iainf72 wrote:
    sampras38 wrote:
    What, Indurain or both?

    Personally I think they've all dabbled but hey ho.

    The guy weighed like 400kg's and suddenly managed to win a GT after working with Conconi by "losing some weight"

    But you could also argue that he was never that great in the mountains, at least compared to the goats, and made up most of his times in the TT's. Just did enough in the mountains not to lose too much time. And if you look at Indurain's previous tours before his 5 wins he was gradually getting better.

    But then I'm not niaive and my gut tells me that pretty much everyone was on something around that time.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    You could argue that, but you'd be wrong.

    Indurain was very dominant in the mountains, usually using the first mountain stage to eliminate most of his rivals and leave him with one or two contendors to mark for the rest of the race.

    He did this in 1991, 1993, 1994 and 1995. He didn't really need to in 1992 they were only two serious mountain stages and he'd wiped the floor with everyone in the Luxembourg TT.
  • sampras38
    sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    andyp wrote:
    You could argue that, but you'd be wrong.

    Indurain was very dominant in the mountains, usually using the first mountain stage to eliminate most of his rivals and leave him with one or two contendors to mark for the rest of the race.

    He did this in 1991, 1993, 1994 and 1995. He didn't really need to in 1992 they were only two serious mountain stages and he'd wiped the floor with everyone in the Luxembourg TT.

    Fair enough...

    It's been a while since I looked into his race history.
  • BigGar
    BigGar Posts: 2
    Indurain is a hero of mine but even I look at him now with suspicion. Hope I'm wrong. Go onto utube and put "indurain la plagne" into the search section. Video is 7min 43long. This proves he certainly could climb. Blew away Ullrich, Pantani etc without even leaving the saddle!! Really is an astonishing performance.
  • jimmythecuckoo
    jimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,718
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Sastre. Before that Lemond.

    That's what I personally believe anyway.

    i can't see past that analysis I have to say.
    http://fendrieneu.home.blog
    My blog and pod...
    Beers of Belgium Cycling Club UK
  • sampras38
    sampras38 Posts: 1,917
    BigGar wrote:
    Indurain is a hero of mine but even I look at him now with suspicion. Hope I'm wrong. Go onto utube and put "indurain la plagne" into the search section. Video is 7min 43long. This proves he certainly could climb. Blew away Ullrich, Pantani etc without even leaving the saddle!! Really is an astonishing performance.

    I'll look it up.

    I knew he was a capable climber, perhaps just not known for it as much as the more traditional climbers. I doubt whether he would consistantly stay with the likes of Pantani though and everyone can have a good day..;-)
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    BigGar wrote:
    Indurain is a hero of mine but even I look at him now with suspicion. Hope I'm wrong. Go onto utube and put "indurain la plagne" into the search section. Video is 7min 43long. This proves he certainly could climb. Blew away Ullrich, Pantani etc without even leaving the saddle!! Really is an astonishing performance.

    Indeed highly impressive. Almost as clear a epo'd up effort as that Riis video posted on the 'Favourite tooled up ride' thread.

    I mean look at the climbs from the last 5 years or so, compare it with him and various others from his time and the speeds must be hugely faster - clear indications of doping, especially when the bikes are much better, lighter, kit is better, nutrition is better, logistics are better, support is better, training is better, basically almost everything to help performance is better.

    Makes Andy and Contador look slow. Not even relatively short bursts, just pure speed for minutes on end - Dave Millar said that with epo, everything still hurt, you could just continue at a faster pace for longer.

    That being said, Indurain is still an amazing rider.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    sampras38 wrote:
    BigGar wrote:
    Indurain is a hero of mine but even I look at him now with suspicion. Hope I'm wrong. Go onto utube and put "indurain la plagne" into the search section. Video is 7min 43long. This proves he certainly could climb. Blew away Ullrich, Pantani etc without even leaving the saddle!! Really is an astonishing performance.

    I'll look it up.

    I knew he was a capable climber, perhaps just not known for it as much as the more traditional climbers. I doubt whether he would consistantly stay with the likes of Pantani though and everyone can have a good day..;-)

    I don't think anyone could stay with a juiced up Pantani circa 98 in a really high mountain stage. He was off the scale. Not Armstrong 01 or Contador and the Chicken 07. Certainly not Indurain.

    Just as I feel nobody could live with a juiced up Indurain on a long TT. Luxembourg 92 was the pinnacle of TT dominance.

    All utterly meaningless when you look at it closely. Pharmacological rather than sporting phenoms.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • SunWuKong
    SunWuKong Posts: 364
    jimmythecuckoo wrote:
    NapoleonD wrote:
    Sastre. Before that Lemond.

    That's what I personally believe anyway.

    i can't see past that analysis I have to say.
    +1
  • BigGar
    BigGar Posts: 2
    I also seem to recall Indurain basically ruining Rominger in the Pyrenees. Think it was in '93 on Hautacam.

    I'm unsure as to what really happened when he cracked on Les Arcs in 1996. It seemed to happen so early in that climb so is very odd. Riis (we now know why) was like a man possessed.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    frenchfighter wrote:
    I mean look at the climbs from the last 5 years or so, compare it with him and various others from his time and the speeds must be hugely faster - clear indications of doping, especially when the bikes are much better, lighter, kit is better, nutrition is better, logistics are better, support is better, training is better, basically almost everything to help performance is better.

    You mean like Clentador's 7 W/kg at Verbier last year, with the highest VAM ever recorded?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    DaveyL wrote:

    You mean like Clentador's 7 W/kg at Verbier last year, with the highest VAM ever recorded?

    This reminds me of the treatment of Bert by some

    http://www.theonion.com/audio/irrepress ... s-7,18283/
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Ah Davey, I suggest you ask for a new drum for Christmas, the one you are beating is getting quite worn.

    PN Prologue, Anncey TT, Verbier. You base your whole train of thought and demolition of Contador around these three events. I suggest you broaden your scope.

    Verbier performance was totally fine.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Ah Davey, I suggest you ask for a new drum for Christmas, the one you are beating is getting quite worn.

    PN Prologue, Anncey TT, Verbier. You base your whole train of thought and demolition of Contador around these three events. I suggest you broaden your scope.

    Verbier performance was totally fine.

    I suggest you ask for a new hero for Christmas. The current one's expiry date is fast approaching.

    I don't really want to say "I told you so", but I did. You just didn't want to listen. And still don't.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Good response. I'll give you that. I don't agree, but still well put.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • itisaboutthebike
    itisaboutthebike Posts: 1,120
    Lemond quit as he knew EPO was taking hold in '91.

    Nuff said really.

    (well apart from he's prpbably the most naturally gifted 'complete' rider of them all -IMHO).
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    If i had to guess Bartali and i would only be marginally confident
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    mididoctors wrote:
    If i had to guess Bartali and i would only be marginally confident

    Oh come on. Bartali was famously righteous and anti anything like drugs. He used to re-ride the route after races looking for Coppi's discarded wrappers.

    If I had to bet my house on a cyclist being clean, I'd pick Gino the Pious (even ahead of Obree).
    Twitter: @RichN95

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