To the cyclist of Superhighway 7 tonight

PBo

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

The next time this driver uses his vehicle as a weapon or screams abuse at people who have done nothing wrong Gaz's video could be used to show what an aggressive, inadequate little man he is.

How's the reasoned, evidenced, rebuttal coming along? I do appreciate it takes longer to compile such a post than to quickly bang up some knee jerk anti-car/driver snipe.......

W1

PBo wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

The next time this driver uses his vehicle as a weapon or screams abuse at people who have done nothing wrong Gaz's video could be used to show what an aggressive, inadequate little man he is.

How's the reasoned, evidenced, rebuttal coming along? I do appreciate it takes longer to compile such a post than to quickly bang up some knee jerk anti-car/driver snipe.......

Be patient - it's not that easy to copy and paste the whole of the internet, especially when you're constantly foaming at the mouth.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

To be fair by the looks of the driver involved, she didn't need Sir Lancealots help.

"behave like a responsible citizen" retort "F@ck off! Excellent fayre

notsoblue

PBo wrote:

please can we stop this.

SHE instigated the situation by tapping on the window. I doubt he could tell it was a woman or how big she was.

You're telling me all cyclists's tap on windows for reasonable debate?

I'm not saying that had he gone and shouted at her, or even hit her she would have deserved it - but personally I think the driver should be cut a bit of slack.

Anyway, we have no way of knowing what would have happened, so everybody (including me ) is just speculating to back up their own ideas.....

As you say, we're all just speculating to back up our ideas...

Actually, I have tapped on windows for reasonable debate. But I can empathise with those who do so for other reasons. I can't comment on whether or not she was justified in doing so, but my guess is that she tapped on the window because she perceived the overtake as far too close and dangerous. I empathise with that, and think thats reason enough. Its not like she smacked his wingmirror off, or kicked his door. And his response was to get out of his car to aggressively posture? Its a threatening act... Whether his intentions were violent or not, its still threatening. And given that the cyclist was looking straight into the passenger window, I'm pretty sure the driver had a good idea of what he was dealing with.

Anyway, I'm not trying to demonise the driver here. It was clearly a situation fraught with ignorance and misunderstanding that go out of hand. And yes, Gaz wading in might have raised the stakes a little, and yes, he was sanctimonious about it, but I think he did the right thing in stopping. Most people just cycle on and ignore incidents like this, leaving drivers who posture in this way this feeling vindicated about their silly, ignorant behaviour.

I empathise more with cyclists than I do with drivers. What can I say?

gtvlusso

PBo wrote:

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

The next time this driver uses his vehicle as a weapon or screams abuse at people who have done nothing wrong Gaz's video could be used to show what an aggressive, inadequate little man he is.

How's the reasoned, evidenced, rebuttal coming along? I do appreciate it takes longer to compile such a post than to quickly bang up some knee jerk anti-car/driver snipe.......

LMAO :-) :-)

greg66_tri_v2.0

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

The next time this driver uses his vehicle as a weapon or screams abuse at people who have done nothing wrong

When was the first time for either of these things?

mybreakfastconsisted wrote:

Gaz's video could be used to show what an aggressive, inadequate little man he is.

Which would advance matters how, precisely?

PBo

notsoblue wrote:

I empathise more with cyclists than I do with drivers. What can I say?

Fair point, mate. I guess I feel - In this thread, at the start - such empathy had strayed into blinkered "us v them"-ness......

Origamist

gtvlusso wrote:

gaz545 wrote:

I have never said that the female cyclist was in the right.

Ah yes, but the slow mo replay of the incident and fact that you placed this on the internet points a finger of blame at the driver - it is clearly biased and you posting the incident just seeks to emphasize that bias.

gaz545 wrote:

when he got out of his car, i had no idea what his state of mind is

No you didn't know, did you? - he could have been apologising or asking what was up - may have even known the girl and offered a lift home - or he could not wind down his passenger window.....but you got stuck in anyway...

The driver could have given her a bunch of flowers too, but given what had taken place in the preceding minute (poor cycling, poor driving, a tap on the window), I'd be more likley to assume a bit of shouting and abuse was in the offing.

Over the years, I've seen quite a few road rage incidents, involving cyclists, drivers, pedestrians, motorbikers etc and I can recall a shed load lot of beeping, shouting, swearing, and threats in most of them, violence in a few, (a guy wielding a car jack springs to mind) and only one incident where a driver got out of his car and ended up shaking hands with a motorbiker after a "politish" exchange of views.

This has taught me that when drivers get out of their vehicle after an incident (or a cyclist jumps off his bike to remonstrate with a driver), to be wary and to anticipate an escalation in the situation - this approach means I am pleasantly surprised if they opt for a bit of courtesy and mutual respect. If I saw more of the latter behaviour, I might have formed a different opinion.

Would I have handled it in the same way as the OP - no, but I can imagine if the driver had walked over to the cyclist and twatted her, a lot of people would be saying that the other cyclists were useless pricks for not stepping in earlier...

fatherted

Actually, I have tapped on windows for reasonable debate.

and most probably come over as smug and pious. This is why most cyclists wouldn't recommend "tapping" on windows.

And his response was to get out of his car to aggressively posture?

If someone knocked on my house front door I'd open it and be curious why they're knocking on my door. Some drivers treat their cars the same. I don't think getting out the car to find out what was going on is threatening.

Its a threatening act

See above , no , it's not.

Gaz wading in might have raised the stakes a little,

yep , just a little , good old gaz

ignore incidents like this

this *wasn't* an incident. Nothing *really* happened, this is gaz looking for "incidents". He should put the cams to better use , take up snowboarding or something.

Gaz , take 'em off.
Get some more miles under your belt.
You're young , a lot of us have seen it all before and shouting at drivers and banging on windows shoutung "YOU'RE BEING FILMED, YOUTUBE !!! LJ09 QWE" doesn't help.

W1

Origamist wrote:

Would I have handled it in the same way as the OP - no, but I can imagine if the driver had walked over to the cyclist and twatted her, a lot of people would be saying that the other cyclists were useless pricks for not stepping in earlier...

There's quite a difference between placing yourself in a position where you can quickly intervene if required, and getting in someone's face/personal space.

I, like you, have seen a number of incidents. If I think something might kick off I'll generally position myself close enough to be "there" but not so close as to be threatening or part of the problem. In this instance Gaz's presense and actions (IMO) heightened the anger rather than difused the situation.

notsoblue

PBo wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

I empathise more with cyclists than I do with drivers. What can I say?

Fair point, mate. I guess I feel - In this thread, at the start - such empathy had strayed into blinkered "us v them"-ness......

Its very tempting to think of things in those terms. Many cyclists (justifiably imo) have a heightened sense of their vulnerability on the road, so when a driver (who is by the very nature of their chosen mode of transport, somewhat abstracted from the situation) passes too close or behaves in some other way that is perceived as threatening, then its understandable that any reaction to this by cyclist may be perceived by the driver as being disproportionate. I think this is why cyclists have a bit of a reputation for being overly sensitive or just plain aggressive. But if one has experience of being involved in an accident on a bike, then the consequences of an incident and the reality of how fragile you are can be only too clear. Also, I get the impression that many drivers don't fully understand what its like to have a car swerve at you, or force you into the kerb etc... As I said, they're a bit abstracted in their cars, and can think that these are proportionate response to someone tapping on their window or just giving them a disapproving look. All this makes it very easy to understand why a seemingly tame incident can escalate very quickly. Cyclists and Drivers just don't understand eachother, and I don't think that will change until cycling is something most people do rather than just a minority.

I don't think helmet cam vigilante is the answer to any of this btw (and I *really* do think its incredibly sanctimonious and a little irritating). But assisting a fellow cyclist caught in a situation like this is a good thing in my view. And it should be encouraged.

Origamist

W1 wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Would I have handled it in the same way as the OP - no, but I can imagine if the driver had walked over to the cyclist and twatted her, a lot of people would be saying that the other cyclists were useless pricks for not stepping in earlier...

There's quite a difference between placing yourself in a position where you can quickly intervene if required, and getting in someone's face/personal space.

I, like you, have seen a number of incidents. If I think something might kick off I'll generally position myself close enough to be "there" but not so close as to be threatening or part of the problem. In this instance Gaz's presense and actions (IMO) heightened the anger rather than difused the situation.

If you want to be in a position to help somebody quickly, you can't be sat astride your bike (you're slow and too vulnerable), you really need to be on your feet either using your bike to ward off an attacker or leave it on the ground so you can restrain an aggressor. I've intervened in two incidents over the years and I'm glad I did, but I didn't try to do it whilst on my bike.

W1

Origamist wrote:

W1 wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Would I have handled it in the same way as the OP - no, but I can imagine if the driver had walked over to the cyclist and twatted her, a lot of people would be saying that the other cyclists were useless pricks for not stepping in earlier...

There's quite a difference between placing yourself in a position where you can quickly intervene if required, and getting in someone's face/personal space.

I, like you, have seen a number of incidents. If I think something might kick off I'll generally position myself close enough to be "there" but not so close as to be threatening or part of the problem. In this instance Gaz's presense and actions (IMO) heightened the anger rather than difused the situation.

If you want to be in a position to help somebody quickly, you can't be sat astride your bike (you're slow and too vulnerable), you really need to be on your feet either using your bike to ward off an attacker or leave it on the ground so you can restrain an aggressor. I've intervened in two incidents over the years and I'm glad I did.

Maybe, although in fact a bike is quite a well sized "defence" barrier. However none of that requires you to be approaching someone or invading their space. Just being there, and being in a position to react, is enough in my experience. Anything further is aggressive, and aggression rarely difused situations (unless you are genuinely huge).

jeremyrundle

I always have and always will cycle with a front and rear cam, see

http://s928.photobucket.com/albums/ad12 ... Movie3.mp4

Doesn't everyone, the quality of mine is as good as yours simply reduced to upload.

Origamist

W1 wrote:

Origamist wrote:

W1 wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Would I have handled it in the same way as the OP - no, but I can imagine if the driver had walked over to the cyclist and twatted her, a lot of people would be saying that the other cyclists were useless pricks for not stepping in earlier...

There's quite a difference between placing yourself in a position where you can quickly intervene if required, and getting in someone's face/personal space.

I, like you, have seen a number of incidents. If I think something might kick off I'll generally position myself close enough to be "there" but not so close as to be threatening or part of the problem. In this instance Gaz's presense and actions (IMO) heightened the anger rather than difused the situation.

If you want to be in a position to help somebody quickly, you can't be sat astride your bike (you're slow and too vulnerable), you really need to be on your feet either using your bike to ward off an attacker or leave it on the ground so you can restrain an aggressor. I've intervened in two incidents over the years and I'm glad I did.

Maybe, although in fact a bike is quite a well sized "defence" barrier. However none of that requires you to be approaching someone or invading their space. Just being there, and being in a position to react, is enough in my experience. Anything further is aggressive, and aggression rarely difused situations (unless you are genuinely huge).

It's a good barrier if you raise the front wheel (a defence tactic preferred by cycle-cops), but in most other situations when you're stationary, it's a hindrance if you want to react quickly to an escalating situation. If you're not close enough to what is unfolding, you'll not be able to react timeously - sometimes you have to reposition yourself if you want to come to someone's aid.

jeremyrundle

spasypaddy wrote:

there was nothing wrong with that pass by the motorist. and people wonder why cyclists get the reputation of a chip on their shoulder.

terrible bit of cycling from the cyclist in question though, no regard for their own safety.

DUH, are you for real, nothing wrong, what planet do you come from, I am over fifty and had that moron come that close to me I could have come off, perhaps I should not be on the road, his swearing shows what scum he is. :!:

PLEASE tell me it was reported.

notsoblue

fatherted wrote:

Actually, I have tapped on windows for reasonable debate.

and most probably come over as smug and pious. This is why most cyclists wouldn't recommend "tapping" on windows.

You're making a lot of assumptions there, fella. I could go on to describe incidents where I've calmly tapped on a driver's window after being cut accidentally, or almost driven into the kerb, just to tell them what *almost* happened and have had perfectly rational, friendly and polite responses. But I don't think it would be much use :S

fatherted wrote:

And his response was to get out of his car to aggressively posture?

If someone knocked on my house front door I'd open it and be curious why they're knocking on my door. Some drivers treat their cars the same. I don't think getting out the car to find out what was going on is threatening.

I'm not going to argue with you. Just saying that in my experience it is. I've only ever seen drivers leave their car like that to be physically intimidating.

fatherted wrote:

ignore incidents like this

this *wasn't* an incident. Nothing *really* happened, this is gaz looking for "incidents". He should put the cams to better use , take up snowboarding or something.

I think you misunderstood my liberal use of the word "perceived" in my post and just skipped to the bits you thought you disagreed with.

fatherted wrote:

Gaz , take 'em off.
Get some more miles under your belt.
You're young , a lot of us have seen it all before and shouting at drivers and banging on windows shoutung "YOU'RE BEING FILMED, YOUTUBE !!! LJ09 QWE" doesn't help.

Er, well thats clearly an exaggeration of what he actually does. I don't recall any banging on windows. Anyway, I think we can all agree its a bit sanctimonious?

daviesee

jeremyrundle wrote:

spasypaddy wrote:

there was nothing wrong with that pass by the motorist. and people wonder why cyclists get the reputation of a chip on their shoulder.

terrible bit of cycling from the cyclist in question though, no regard for their own safety.

DUH, are you for real, nothing wrong, what planet do you come from, I am over fifty and had that moron come that close to me I could have come off, perhaps I should not be on the road, his swearing shows what scum he is. :!:

PLEASE tell me it was reported.

Report what?

A close call? Some one swearing? :? :roll: :?

Too many pages about nothing. To my shame, I have just added to it :oops:

jeremyrundle

notsoblue wrote:

PBo wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

passes too close or behaves in some other way that is perceived as threatening, d.

You even clearly state "passes too close".

sorry, I have been driving for a very long time, I have accidentally cut up motorists in my lifetime, or pulled out foolishly, and have ALWAYS put my hand up and waved sorry, and made a point of them seeing.

SCUM drivers who drive this close are just that, if there had been a larger door mirror on his piece of old junk he would have hit the cyclist, his type are a problem as shown by the go %^*& yourself lowlife answer to the situation.

Get real I would have done the same, as for "feeling vulnerable" he is in a ton of steel we are on 30lbs of alloy, hello :?

jeremyrundle

Origamist wrote:

W1 wrote:

Origamist wrote:

Would I have handled it in the same way as the OP - no, but I can imagine if the driver had walked over to the cyclist and twatted her, a lot of people would be saying that the other cyclists were useless pricks for not stepping in earlier...

There's quite a difference between placing yourself in a position where you can quickly intervene if required, and getting in someone's face/personal space.

I, like you, have seen a number of incidents. If I think something might kick off I'll generally position myself close enough to be "there" but not so close as to be threatening or part of the problem. In this instance Gaz's presense and actions (IMO) heightened the anger rather than difused the situation.

If you want to be in a position to help somebody quickly, you can't be sat astride your bike (you're slow and too vulnerable), you really need to be on your feet either using your bike to ward off an attacker or leave it on the ground so you can restrain an aggressor. I've intervened in two incidents over the years and I'm glad I did, but I don't try to do it whilst on my bike.

Thanks I will remember this info

mybreakfastconsisted

If a driver is behaving as if he is the only vehicle on the roads then reminding him by saying "There's a cyclist here!" is entirely reasonable- it's not attacking anyone, tapping on a car, if that's what she did, is not as aggressive as zooming past a cyclist way too close.

I would rather someone tapped on my window than overtake me on a bike leaving inches to spare. The overtake was too close to the cyclist in the lane, let alone the overtaking cyclist.

The driver had a short fuse, nobody shouted at him, nobody swore at him, and he responded with foul abuse.

It needs reporting if only because it seems likely the driver has no idea how poor his driving is.

Maxticate

notsoblue wrote:

Anyway, I think we can all agree its a bit sanctimonious?

I don't think it's just sanctimonious I think its a downright dangerous activity.

If you film your commute and then post your film openly criticising others on YouTube how long will it be till one of those others takes an unhealthy interest in making your life more difficult? Posting comments to YouTube videos is one thing but if you have an online presence then suprisingly little digging can reveal an amazing amount of information.

Keep in mind I bear Gaz545 no ill will or malice as before this thread appeared I had no idea he even existed, indeed I am just using him as an example because he has raised already the awarenes of himself. Also keep in mind I have no special computing skills, all i used was google. Starting with all I know of Gaz545 a user name and that he posts his videos on YouTube just a short look on google gives me a lot of public domain accessed information that he may not be so happy to share with someone who may dislike him.

Now imagine if I was the guy in that video wanting to get my own back. Starting from the same information. Gaz545 gave him, that is his user name and where to look for him online, if he accessed the same freely available information as me he would have.
Full Name
Date of Birth
Address
images (to use for reference as memories can be hazy)
employer
employers address
commute route information
bikes ridden, past and present
education history (where, when, and what studied)
Interests, hobbies

Worse than the above he would also have the location and details of Gaz545's family members and friends.

to get all that information only took around 20 minutes.

Gaz545 has a very large online presence so perhaps it is easier in his case but I do think it's something that the video vigilantes should bear in mind. Even if they accept the risks posed by posting these videos and raising awareness of themselves are their families happy with such risks?

It actually shook me a bit to see how easily accessed this type of data is, certainly enough for me to consider my own online presence. The difference is I'm not actively annoying other, in some cases demonstrably aggressive, members of the public.

snooks

notsoblue wrote:

fatherted wrote:

Gaz , take 'em off.
Get some more miles under your belt.
You're young , a lot of us have seen it all before and shouting at drivers and banging on windows shoutung "YOU'RE BEING FILMED, YOUTUBE !!! LJ09 QWE" doesn't help.

Er, well thats clearly an exaggeration of what he actually does.

Erm....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6g79GZsZws

notsoblue

snooks wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

fatherted wrote:

Gaz , take 'em off.
Get some more miles under your belt.
You're young , a lot of us have seen it all before and shouting at drivers and banging on windows shoutung "YOU'RE BEING FILMED, YOUTUBE !!! LJ09 QWE" doesn't help.

Er, well thats clearly an exaggeration of what he actually does.

Erm....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6g79GZsZws

Wheres the banging on windows bit? I missed that.

snooks

notsoblue wrote:

snooks wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

fatherted wrote:

Gaz , take 'em off.
Get some more miles under your belt.
You're young , a lot of us have seen it all before and shouting at drivers and banging on windows shoutung "YOU'RE BEING FILMED, YOUTUBE !!! LJ09 QWE" doesn't help.

Er, well thats clearly an exaggeration of what he actually does.

Erm....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6g79GZsZws

Wheres the banging on windows bit? I missed that.

Well you had the shouting bit

notsoblue

snooks wrote:

Well you had the shouting bit

lol, well he was out of breath! Look, I'm not going out of my way to defend Gaz's vigilante antics here. But Fatherted's description of him banging on car windows and shouting at the drivers is an exaggeration :P

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

You see that latest one happens to me all the time, and when I first started watching these YT videos that style of driving began to pish me off, I now am back to ignoring it.

He was either a plonker or mis-judged the speed the bike was going at, and distance to traffic.

Fat-Boy-Roubaix

oh and one day regardless of your mobile TV studio you will pick the wrong person, it must be the law of averages you will one day encounter a nutter.

wgwarburton

fatherted wrote:

Actually, I have tapped on windows for reasonable debate.

and most probably come over as smug and pious. This is why most cyclists wouldn't recommend "tapping" on windows.....

I've tapped on windows a few times- usually to warn a driver that they have a tail light out or a soft tyre... Occasionally to point out that their coat is hanging out of the door and getting dirty...

The reaction tends to be defensive, surprised, then grateful...

When I was young & stupid I would sometimes highlight poor behavior. I generally don't bother, now that I'm older.

I'm often tempted to ask taxi drivers not to block ASLs, but I can't convince myself that it would help. With no enforcement there's no incentive for them to bother and they generally seem to regard cyclists as an irritating inconvenience, anyway...

Cheers,
W.

snooks

notsoblue wrote:

snooks wrote:

Well you had the shouting bit

lol, well he was out of breath! Look, I'm not going out of my way to defend Gaz's vigilante antics here. But Fatherted's description of him banging on car windows and shouting at the drivers is an exaggeration :P

Only the banging on windows bit....adds a bit of colour