The precarious world of 4th catdom

jibberjim

SheffSimon wrote:

Does being in a club improve riding skills and attitudes in lower cat racing? What relevance does riding in twos on a club run have to a race?

One difference is that if your club gets a bad reputation for crashes, you'll have to take steps to rectify it otherwise that bad reputation will tarnish you. It makes individual responsibility more collective.

SheffSimon wrote:

Many complaints/comments on this and other forums re triathletes riding road races and their poor bunch skills, presumably their tri club is affiliated to BC, so how has this affiliation helped?

If a club is bad, the club can then be sanctioned...

sheffsimon

jibberjim wrote:

SheffSimon wrote:

Does being in a club improve riding skills and attitudes in lower cat racing? What relevance does riding in twos on a club run have to a race?

One difference is that if your club gets a bad reputation for crashes, you'll have to take steps to rectify it otherwise that bad reputation will tarnish you. It makes individual responsibility more collective.

SheffSimon wrote:

Many complaints/comments on this and other forums re triathletes riding road races and their poor bunch skills, presumably their tri club is affiliated to BC, so how has this affiliation helped?

If a club is bad, the club can then be sanctioned...

I hear what you are saying, and I suppose a club could be sanctioned, but has that ever happened?

Never really felt that blame attaches to a club if it has some hopeless riders in it, more just to that rider.

Tom Butcher

How can you sanction a club just because some members are poor riders. First off you have to have someone attributing blame for the crashes - as most happen in the middle of the bunch whose word are you going to take ? I've read plenty of reports of crashes and I've yet to hear anyone put their hand up and yeah sorry I caused that. Then what kind of sanction are you going to apply to a voluntary association of cyclists ?

tomb8555

maryka wrote:

It would also require a bit of a rethink on 3rd cat races, which as standalone races are hardly faster than 4ths races but are often not offered. Hillingdon jumps from 4th to E/1/2/3 and that's a big jump for someone with good bunch experience but lacking fitness. If they could fit in a 3rds only race that would be better (unlikely I know).

Not to split hairs, but Hillingdon did run a separate 3rd cat race as well as the E123 for the 2009/2010 league. In theory you weren't meant to go straight from the 4ths to the E123 but it wasn't very strictly enforced (I did, for example).

maryka

tomb8555 wrote:

maryka wrote:

It would also require a bit of a rethink on 3rd cat races, which as standalone races are hardly faster than 4ths races but are often not offered. Hillingdon jumps from 4th to E/1/2/3 and that's a big jump for someone with good bunch experience but lacking fitness. If they could fit in a 3rds only race that would be better (unlikely I know).

Not to split hairs, but Hillingdon did run a separate 3rd cat race as well as the E123 for the 2009/2010 league. In theory you weren't meant to go straight from the 4ths to the E123 but it wasn't very strictly enforced (I did, for example).

I thought that was just in the winter series?

tomb8555

maryka wrote:

tomb8555 wrote:

maryka wrote:

It would also require a bit of a rethink on 3rd cat races, which as standalone races are hardly faster than 4ths races but are often not offered. Hillingdon jumps from 4th to E/1/2/3 and that's a big jump for someone with good bunch experience but lacking fitness. If they could fit in a 3rds only race that would be better (unlikely I know).

Not to split hairs, but Hillingdon did run a separate 3rd cat race as well as the E123 for the 2009/2010 league. In theory you weren't meant to go straight from the 4ths to the E123 but it wasn't very strictly enforced (I did, for example).

I thought that was just in the winter series?

My bad, I was talking about the winter series!

LittleB0b

Hibbs wrote:

For any other sport you have to be a member of an affiliated club in order to take part in formal competitions. Why not cycling?

err, you know that there's actually lots of sports that don't require you to be part of a club to compete really though? right?

In fact i've only ever competed in 2 sports and neither of those required you to be in a club

LJAR

One of the things about cycling is it is a dangerous sport.

I mean, why do we wear helmets eh? (I destroyed mine the other day after crashing on a descent)

If people do not have enough experience riding in a bunch when they get promoted, then make sure there is a rule that requires a certain number of races to be finished before you can get from cat 4 to cat 3.


That and get people to sign a waiver when they get their racing license.

WARNING cycling is a dangerous sport and you may be injured, BC or the race organisers are not liable for any damage you sustain.

my tuppence anyway.

JackPozzi

Maybe have a big white cross that people have to pin on their jerseys until they've completed a certain number of races to signify they're a novice, similar to some forms of motor racing? Would at least let other riders know to give them a wider berth

on-yer-bike

The answer is straight forward:
To move up to Cat 3 the rider has to have completed so many races say at least 10.
He will also need to have gained 10 points.
He may gain his 10 points in the first race but will still have to do 9 more races to gain experience before moving up.
Cat 4 will always be the learning ground because you have to start somewhere.
Cat 4 races should always be for that Cat only.
The basic dos and donts of racing should be explained to all new riders before the start of a race and these should also be posted on to the web for reference.
Riding in club rides doesn't give you the necessary experience, neither does swimming and running.

jgsi

on-yer-bike wrote:

The answer is straight forward:
To move up to Cat 3 the rider has to have completed so many races say at least 10.
He will also need to have gained 10 points.
He may gain his 10 points in the first race but will still have to do 9 more races to gain experience before moving up.
Cat 4 will always be the learning ground because you have to start somewhere.
Cat 4 races should always be for that Cat only.
The basic dos and donts of racing should be explained to all new riders before the start of a race and these should also be posted on to the web for reference.
Riding in club rides doesn't give you the necessary experience, neither does swimming and running.

Yes cat 4 racing should be for cat4s.
However, you still have the issue of huge differences in fitness/ability levels that could lead to preventable incidents if .....
perhaps limit the number of particiapants to 30 and reduce the length of the race to 20 / 30 mile? That to allow for another race to be slotted into a perhaps busy schedule.
Anything to relieve the pressures found in 70 -80 fields.
Changing anything is probably going to add costs but clearing up after a 8 bike pile up also costs.
To leave things as they are is accept as mentioned racing is a risk.... and best to ride on the alloy / steel bike and leave the carbon in the shed.

Toks

Lots of points have been well made. I'd be interested to know what sort of advice newbie racers have ever received. In my experienced it tends to be about race tactics and not about the do's and don'ts of racing safely. In my six year of racing probably an average of 12-15 races per year I've only even been given three specific peices of advice with regards to safely by more experienced racers
1. Relax mate you're holding the bars too tight (from an ex 1st cat - absolutely spot on I was a nervous 4th cat)
2. Don't let your front wheel overlaps someone back wheel especially on bends (from a ex 1st cat
3. Don't sit up at the end for the sprint (race organiser)
4. Follow racing line (other riders)

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

4th cats riding with 4th cats only won't necessarily improve their skills. You need to ride with better riders and sometimes simply be told stuff that you may not be aware of. Don't football managers and pundits say that iyounger players become better when the play with quality experienced international players. Nuff said

Monty Dog

Toks I agree regarding your points that I try to instill in anyone that rides in a group - I had my first crash this year in a race after many years - I was tracking the wheel in front on a hill when he moved over to avoid a pothole and I ended in a heap after clipping wheels - I was really pi$$ed as we had a minute on the pack and it stayed away for the win!

Tom BB

Toks wrote:

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

Good post Toks....can you just explain this bit to me in a little more depth.......not quite sure what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure it is sensible advice :oops: (Hoping to start racing myself next year, so interested to pick up as many tips as possible)

maryka

Tom BB wrote:

Toks wrote:

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

Good post Toks....can you just explain this bit to me in a little more depth.......not quite sure what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure it is sensible advice :oops: (Hoping to start racing myself next year, so interested to pick up as many tips as possible)

I'm not Toks but he was describing what happens when you go to stand on a climb, the natural motion of shifting your weight forward on your hands "pushes" the bike back. Which doesn't matter when you're alone as there's nobody behind you, but in a tight bunch your back wheel will go into someone else's front wheel (unless everyone else is standing up at exactly the same time!)

To prevent it, you should push your hands forward -- pushing the bars forward -- as you stand to keep your bike's momentum and prevent the person behind from running into your back wheel. Try it sometime with a friend on a climb and you'll instantly get it. You can also see when you sit down at the top, you will unconsciously push the bike forward a bit as you push back with your hands to fall back into the saddle. Not such a big deal though as generally when you sit again, you're done putting out big power (unless you sit halfway up a climb to keep cranking, then you might find your front wheel suddenly hitting the back wheel in front of you).

Fwiw I found some useful basic etiquette and tactics on these webpages (which I posted to my club's forum as we are running a racing skills session at Hillingdon in a few weeks and I wanted everyone to be on the same page when we get there so we don't have to stand around discussing the basics too much).

http://www.easternvets.com/etiquette.php
http://www.davelloydcoaching.com/cyclin ... ng-tactics

oldwelshman

maryka wrote:

Tom BB wrote:

Toks wrote:

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

Good post Toks....can you just explain this bit to me in a little more depth.......not quite sure what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure it is sensible advice :oops: (Hoping to start racing myself next year, so interested to pick up as many tips as possible)

I'm not Toks but he was describing what happens when you go to stand on a climb, the natural motion of shifting your weight forward on your hands "pushes" the bike back. Which doesn't matter when you're alone as there's nobody behind you, but in a tight bunch your back wheel will go into someone else's front wheel (unless everyone else is standing up at exactly the same time!)

To prevent it, you should push your hands forward -- pushing the bars forward -- as you stand to keep your bike's momentum and prevent the person behind from running into your back wheel. Try it sometime with a friend on a climb and you'll instantly get it. You can also see when you sit down at the top, you will unconsciously push the bike forward a bit as you push back with your hands to fall back into the saddle. Not such a big deal though as generally when you sit again, you're done putting out big power (unless you sit halfway up a climb to keep cranking, then you might find your front wheel suddenly hitting the back wheel in front of you).

Fwiw I found some useful basic etiquette and tactics on these webpages (which I posted to my club's forum as we are running a racing skills session at Hillingdon in a few weeks and I wanted everyone to be on the same page when we get there so we don't have to stand around discussing the basics too much).

http://www.easternvets.com/etiquette.php
http://www.davelloydcoaching.com/cyclin ... ng-tactics

Good explanation but it is the rider behind who has the responsibility not to ride into the rider in front on a climb If a rider is climbing in saddle you should be aware he may get out of saddle at some point so give more than two inches between wheels
There is no advantage to be gained being that close to a wheel on a climb that you may collide if they get out of saddle.

With respect to the main point, I would say why not do the same as track, before being allocated any racing licence riders should be assessed and accredited.
This could easliy be done with groups at any of the racing circuits such as Hillingdon.

Toks

Tom BB wrote:

Toks wrote:

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

Good post Toks....can you just explain this bit to me in a little more depth.......not quite sure what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure it is sensible advice :oops: (Hoping to start racing myself next year, so interested to pick up as many tips as possible)

Hi mate, I think Maryka has pretty much described perfectly what I mean.But there's no harm in repeating it for clarification.

When seated on a climb and switching to climbing out of the saddle it often causes you to slow down fractionally and that's often enough to cause someone following close behind to hit your back wheel and go down. I therefore always make an effort to pull/push the bike forward as I rise out of the saddle to counter that lull in speed.

The other point I don't think I made very well so I'll try again. :roll: When moving off someone's wheel (person in front) glance over your shoulder first. For experienced riders, its much more subtle action - you develop this an extra sense of who is around and switch from side to side without even realising that you're doing it

on-yer-bike

Tom BB wrote:

Toks wrote:

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

Good post Toks....can you just explain this bit to me in a little more depth.......not quite sure what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure it is sensible advice :oops: (Hoping to start racing myself next year, so interested to pick up as many tips as possible)

Some riders, and I know one, seem to almost stop when they get out the saddle. If you are close behind you have to brake or take avoiding action. Even if you avoid crashing you still lose your momentum. You can imagine the knock on effect in a tight bunch. Also it isn't just on a climb that this can happen. You will get shouted at if you do this in a Cat 3 race.

You are still riding close on a climb even though there is no need to draft because you still want to be in the bunch at the top of the hill! As is the case at Hog Hill.

sheffsimon

oldwelshman wrote:

maryka wrote:

Tom BB wrote:

Toks wrote:

Learning to pull my bike forward when getting out the saddle (to prevent touching wheels with rider behind), looking over my shoulder when switching picked up myself

Good post Toks....can you just explain this bit to me in a little more depth.......not quite sure what you mean by it, but I'm pretty sure it is sensible advice :oops: (Hoping to start racing myself next year, so interested to pick up as many tips as possible)

I'm not Toks but he was describing what happens when you go to stand on a climb, the natural motion of shifting your weight forward on your hands "pushes" the bike back. Which doesn't matter when you're alone as there's nobody behind you, but in a tight bunch your back wheel will go into someone else's front wheel (unless everyone else is standing up at exactly the same time!)

To prevent it, you should push your hands forward -- pushing the bars forward -- as you stand to keep your bike's momentum and prevent the person behind from running into your back wheel. Try it sometime with a friend on a climb and you'll instantly get it. You can also see when you sit down at the top, you will unconsciously push the bike forward a bit as you push back with your hands to fall back into the saddle. Not such a big deal though as generally when you sit again, you're done putting out big power (unless you sit halfway up a climb to keep cranking, then you might find your front wheel suddenly hitting the back wheel in front of you).

Fwiw I found some useful basic etiquette and tactics on these webpages (which I posted to my club's forum as we are running a racing skills session at Hillingdon in a few weeks and I wanted everyone to be on the same page when we get there so we don't have to stand around discussing the basics too much).

http://www.easternvets.com/etiquette.php
http://www.davelloydcoaching.com/cyclin ... ng-tactics

Good explanation but it is the rider behind who has the responsibility not to ride into the rider in front on a climb If a rider is climbing in saddle you should be aware he may get out of saddle at some point so give more than two inches between wheels
There is no advantage to be gained being that close to a wheel on a climb that you may collide if they get out of saddle.

With respect to the main point, I would say why not do the same as track, before being allocated any racing licence riders should be assessed and accredited.
This could easliy be done with groups at any of the racing circuits such as Hillingdon.

Responsibility lies with both riders, certainly if you are getting out of the saddle make sure your bake doesnt go backwards, and make sure you are not too close to the wheel in front so you cant avoid any mishaps. All easier said than done when you're on the rivet of course.

As for assessing groups on closed circuits, very nice if you have closed circuits, but unfortunately we dont in this part of the world.

MTFU and get on with yer racing I say.

kieranb

Toks wrote:

3. Don't sit up at the end for the sprint (race organiser)
4. Follow racing line (other riders)

Track is great for teaching these, you can't stop too quickly after a sprint on the track.

mamba80

I think a selection of Photos/Video clips from the previous weeks crashes, shown at the signing on tent, would doubtless focus a few minds.
It maybe a surprise to some but Lycra has all the protection qualities of a sheet of wet bog roll :shock:

If more riders had a few "offs" pror to their racing "career" then they d behave in a different manner.

Pokerface

Judging by all the crashes I've seen at the Pro level, I don't think many of those guys should have licences either

Pross

From what I've seen so far this season, my first back in 14 years, I have raced in one Go Race at Llandow and watched or driven lead car in several road races and I would say that other than larger fields the road races are not much different to how the were back in the 90s. However, the Go Race at Llandow showed some shocking handling skills and poor lines especially when riders were getting lapped. Fortunately the field was very small and everyone stayed upright but I understand they have had similar levels of riding when having 4th cat races there. It does seem that these closed circuit races attract the beginners more than road racing which may be why the Central and South Eastern regions are the ones picking up on it most.

I would suggest that better use is made of the Go Race system as an accreditation system for a racing licence. Newcomers would be required to take part in (say) 5 Go Race races in the first instance with field sizes limited to 30? riders. The races would have no points or money at stake so no reason to take undue risk. At the end of each race the rider gets signed off by the Commissaire unless they have ridden dangerously. Once signed off the requisite number of times they can then apply for a racing licence and only then start racing as a 4th cat.

I personally feel that being a club member and riding regularly in a group is an advantage but then I have also ridden on club runs with riders who a liability even there. Just as with driving some people don't use any sense when cycling

maryka

I see the Hillingdon summer series has changed format a bit: it's now an E/1/2/3 with Band 5 points (10 for the winner) and a 3/4 with NO points at all. Should be an interesting experiment and kudos to Stuart Benstead for giving it a go. I guess he's pretty confident he'll still get the number of racers out (which I think he will, at least he'll get 3rds out for the 3/4 who want a good workout and a chance to win). But will it keep the crashes down?

Bronzie

maryka wrote:

But will it keep the crashes down?

I predict it will make not a jot of difference, but we'll see

oldwelshman

maryka wrote:

I see the Hillingdon summer series has changed format a bit: it's now an E/1/2/3 with Band 5 points (10 for the winner) and a 3/4 with NO points at all. Should be an interesting experiment and kudos to Stuart Benstead for giving it a go. I guess he's pretty confident he'll still get the number of racers out (which I think he will, at least he'll get 3rds out for the 3/4 who want a good workout and a chance to win). But will it keep the crashes down?

I fail to see how this will have any effect on crashes.
Why would a 3rd cat want to ride a 3/4 race with no points on offer? May as well go on a club ride.
Will probably end up same as before with e,1,2,3 in one race and 4ths in other.

maryka

oldwelshman wrote:

I fail to see how this will have any effect on crashes.
Why would a 3rd cat want to ride a 3/4 race with no points on offer? May as well go on a club ride.
Will probably end up same as before with e,1,2,3 in one race and 4ths in other.

See this brings up an interesting point. I fail to see why points matter to people who are going to be perennial 3rd or 2nd cats. If you're on the way to E or 1st than fine. But most people are going to be 3rds or maybe 2nds for life. Why do points matter then? Down here many races are open to both 2nds and 3rds. Or 3rds can choose between an (E)1/2/3 or 2/3 or 3rds only. Only a handful of circuits are done as E/1/2 and 3/4.

Personally -- and I speak this as a 1st W where being 1st cat has got me nothing I couldn't already have had as 2nd or 3rd W -- I chase wins and podiums and good results, not points. Why is it different for men?

jibberjim

oldwelshman wrote:

Why would a 3rd cat want to ride a 3/4 race with no points on offer?

For the money? For the practice of controlling/making a race rather than just trying to hang on - which is not hard at Hillingdon at all. I don't like Hillingdon at all, it's mostly too boring a circuit, but there's no way I'd do an E/1/2/3 there too easy to sit in too tough for me to get away, but a 3/4 is much more likely to get me out.

pistol84

This stinks of the rumblings of a green eyed monster!! A rider jealous of those capable of moving through the ranks much quicker than he while he languish's in 3rd cat mediocrity.

I have just completed my first season of racing and have moved from 4th cat through to 2nd and amazingly without being involved in a crash.

In fact the closest that I have come to an incident was in a 2nd cat race and the incident was entirely caused by a far more "experienced" rider who knowing that I was coming round him in a sprint moved off his line to try and block. The rider was later disqualified for dangerous riding.

The bottom line is if your scared of inexperienced riders causing an incident get up the road and ride where you can only beat yourself!

Tom Butcher

maryka wrote:

Personally -- and I speak this as a 1st W where being 1st cat has got me nothing I couldn't already have had as 2nd or 3rd W -- I chase wins and podiums and good results, not points. Why is it different for men?

I don't think it necessarily is - LVRCs seem quite popular where all you win is the chance to get top three in your age group - occasionally they list the top 10 overall too.

Haivng said that if Hillingdon was my local circuit and I was placing in the 3/4s I'd be a bit brassed off at the organiser choosing to deny me any points because he's got a bee in his bonnet about crashes. I don't really think BC should allow it - the Regional C classification isn't designed for 3/4 circuit races.