Student Fees Protest

SBezza

Rick Chasey wrote:

If, in the example, where someone earns a lot without university education - then they can probably afford to cough up a bit more cash. If they're still being stingy about that, than that's a damn shame on them.

What complete and utter tosh, I earn good money, and along with my wife having to work, we just get by, hence why it irritates the hell out of me that students demand free education. You get free education until you are 16/17 if you want even better education PAY for it, it is simple as that.

We have a massive budget issues in this country at the moment, and this is just one of the ways to claw back some of this money. I have lost out on some cuts, why should others be excluded.

I agree with helping those that need help due to their circumstances, but not pay for people to live it up for 3/4 years and then get dead end jobs.

rick_chasey

SBezza wrote:

What complete and utter tosh, I earn good money, and along with my wife having to work, we just get by

How does that work then?

Either you earn good money, or you just get by?


As I've said before, if you make students pay - you make further education elitist - which only goes to further harm the poor.

Sure univeristy needs to be paid for somehow - why not make people who can afford to pay more? Not the people who already can't.

SBezza

Rick

Do live in a different world, good money doesn't mean having oddles of cash to splash around.

Things like bills and mortgages cost quite a bit of money these days, and you need to earn good money just to afford to live sometimes.

You don't need a university education to do well in life though, thats the point I am making.

daveydave43

SBezza wrote:

why should I pay for someone to earn decent money, or even worse ham it up for a few years, then take a low paid job.

i think you have a slightly flawed perspective here. you aren't so much paying for them to get a decent job - thats only half the point of a degree - you are paying so that the student can continue to provide the country with research, to learn new skills in order to make the economy more productive.

nolf

Most student protests are thick - especially violent ones (I'm a student).
I can't see the government backing down on this decision now, not in the face of violence.

I felt sorry for the NUS president on breakfast this morning. He's desperately trying to distance his movement from the violence, and then the women next to him just talks about the inevitable coming revolution! (who was she by the way?) And how it was fine to smash the TORY windows...?

finchy

SBezza wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

SBezza wrote:

If you need a degree for your career, you will generally be earning quite a lot. Why the hell should I pay for that.

If you're earning more money as a graduate, you will pay more tax.

What about if you earn more than some graduates (without having had the tax payer pay for a degree), again why should I pay for someone to earn decent money, or even worse ham it up for a few years, then take a low paid job. Either work your way up, or pay for the higher education.

There are probably plenty of people that have got stupid degrees, that will never pay their student loans back, because they took degrees which are useless to society, and they can't get a job that pays high enough to have to start paying back the loan.

Nobody is stopped from doing a degree with the changes, they will just have to think about whether they can justify the costs, just like alot of us do everyday with other things in life.

You're missing the point I was making - our national economy is now based on high-tech skills, which come from graduates. Therefore the contribution that graduates make to the economy massively outweighs the amount of money spent on tuition fees. Anyone with sought-after skills can just leave this country. If I were in £30-40k of debt and could get a job abroad, I'd take it and the UK would lose all of the money invested in my education.

I can understand that people don't want to spend money on those who just cruise through university and treat it like a 3 year holiday - as I've said elsewhere in the thread I'm all in favour of weeding them out at the earliest possible opportunity.

Cressers

Back in the sixties they would've burned the fooken office down, now all they do is mill pointlessly around in front of it...

freehub

The protest is pointless and will probably do nowt.

The idiots who started a riot should be thrown in a cell.

MattC59

daveydave43 wrote:

[....... you are paying so that the student can continue to provide the country with research, to learn new skills in order to make the economy more productive.

My Niece has just gone to York to study "The History of Art"........ that doesn't fit in with the above.

MattC59

freehub wrote:

The protest is pointless and will probably do nowt.

The idiots who started a riot should be thrown in a cell.

Water cannons would have worked ! You don't need to knock people off their feet, but they'll soon go home when they're cold and wet !

rick_chasey

MattC59 wrote:

daveydave43 wrote:

[....... you are paying so that the student can continue to provide the country with research, to learn new skills in order to make the economy more productive.

My Niece has just gone to York to study "The History of Art"........ that doesn't fit in with the above.

You don't think art is important?

simonaspinall

MattC59 wrote:

daveydave43 wrote:

[....... you are paying so that the student can continue to provide the country with research, to learn new skills in order to make the economy more productive.

My Niece has just gone to York to study "The History of Art"........ that doesn't fit in with the above.

Can you make money out of Art...? Yes

Is it purely the subject that is important...? No

Maybe your niece wants to teach, become an art journo or whatever - Point is you can still produce wealth for the economy or use ti for the social good in education or even charity.

Would you say that if she was an I.T. or computer engineering graduate? A handy skill, yet very high unemployment rate due to outsourcing IT projects abroad.

If you continue with the logic you could even put a quota on the number of degrees available depending on the economic situation and job market. But then that isn't the sole purpose of university.

redddraggon

Rick Chasey wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

daveydave43 wrote:

[....... you are paying so that the student can continue to provide the country with research, to learn new skills in order to make the economy more productive.

My Niece has just gone to York to study "The History of Art"........ that doesn't fit in with the above.

You don't think art is important?

It's good for Society that some people do such subjects, but far too many people seem to do useless niche subjects.

nolf

It's only niche if you assume people do a job related to their degree...

The vast majority of grads don't get jobs in their field.
Otherwise we'd have loads of chemists, physicists and historians, and no business analysts, consultants, civil servants, project managers etc.

You don't do a degree in "analytical thinking applicable to business strategy/marketing/operations/supply chain management/ etc", and yet there are quite a few jobs around for this kind of thing.

finchy

nolf wrote:

You don't do a degree in "analytical thinking applicable to business strategy/marketing/operations/supply chain management/ etc", and yet there are quite a few jobs around for this kind of thing.

You don't need a degree to do jobs like these. They used to be done by non-graduates who got experience in the field and worked their way up.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

nolf wrote:

You don't do a degree in "analytical thinking applicable to business strategy/marketing/operations/supply chain management/ etc", and yet there are quite a few jobs around for this kind of thing.

You don't need a degree to do jobs like these. They used to be done by non-graduates who got experience in the field and worked their way up.

Students surely respond to demand - employers want degrees, students get degrees.

Can't blame the students who feel they need a degree to get a job. Telling them that if they can't afford it, it's ok because students shouldn't be getting degrees (even though that's what many employers want) doesn't really cut it does it?

finchy

Rick Chasey wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

nolf wrote:

You don't do a degree in "analytical thinking applicable to business strategy/marketing/operations/supply chain management/ etc", and yet there are quite a few jobs around for this kind of thing.

You don't need a degree to do jobs like these. They used to be done by non-graduates who got experience in the field and worked their way up.

Students surely respond to demand - employers want degrees, students get degrees.

Can't blame the students who feel they need a degree to get a job. Telling them that if they can't afford it, it's ok because students shouldn't getting degrees (even though that's what many employers want) doesn't really cut it does it?

I concur. If employers are demanding degrees for jobs which didn't previously demand it, then students will go on degree courses to stand a chance of getting the jobs. I wasn't putting the blame on students at all.

rick_chasey

johnfinch wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

nolf wrote:

You don't do a degree in "analytical thinking applicable to business strategy/marketing/operations/supply chain management/ etc", and yet there are quite a few jobs around for this kind of thing.

You don't need a degree to do jobs like these. They used to be done by non-graduates who got experience in the field and worked their way up.

Students surely respond to demand - employers want degrees, students get degrees.

Can't blame the students who feel they need a degree to get a job. Telling them that if they can't afford it, it's ok because students shouldn't getting degrees (even though that's what many employers want) doesn't really cut it does it?

I concur. If employers are demanding degrees for jobs which didn't previously demand it, then students will go on degree courses to stand a chance of getting the jobs. I wasn't putting the blame on students at all.

You weren't, but it let me illustrate a gripe of mine :P

finchy

Fair enough.

scrumpydave

I think I must be missing something. I was lucky that I didn't have to borrow large amounts of money to go to university as future students will, but the line I keep hearing is "I won't be able to afford it now". Surely a debt for which repayments are contingent on earnings is affordable by definition? This decision will make university more expensive, but it won't make it any less affordable.

rick_chasey

scrumpydave wrote:

I think I must be missing something. I was lucky that I didn't have to borrow large amounts of money to go to university as future students will, but the line I keep hearing is "I won't be able to afford it now". Surely a debt for which repayments are contingent on earnings is affordable by definition? This decision will make university more expensive, but it won't make it any less affordable.

The lib dems are looking into a grad tax.

The tories are looking to raise the fee-cap.

finchy

scrumpydave wrote:

I think I must be missing something. I was lucky that I didn't have to borrow large amounts of money to go to university as future students will, but the line I keep hearing is "I won't be able to afford it now". Surely a debt for which repayments are contingent on earnings is affordable by definition? This decision will make university more expensive, but it won't make it any less affordable.

Depends on the future cost of living.

If people have to start paying back their loans at, say £22k (I don't know what the real figure is), that may sound fairly reasonable, but let's imagine that house prices don't continue their decline and oil prices go up and stay up and taxes are increased. You might well be left high and dry, especially if you need to leave your family home and own a car for your work.

simonaspinall

Either way - Anyone earning above £21K who did a degree prior to 1997 should cough up as I wouldn't want their conscience racked with guilt at not having made a contribution to the state for their free education knowing they are earning enough to afford to pay.

redddraggon

johnfinch wrote:

nolf wrote:

You don't do a degree in "analytical thinking applicable to business strategy/marketing/operations/supply chain management/ etc", and yet there are quite a few jobs around for this kind of thing.

You don't need a degree to do jobs like these. They used to be done by non-graduates who got experience in the field and worked their way up.

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Heckler1974

redddraggon wrote:

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Oddly in Italy they think about it differently, they look upon the education gained and the focus needed to become degree educated as the important thing, not the subject.

Tom BB

Heckler1974 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Oddly in Italy they think about it differently, they look upon the education gained and the focus needed to become degree educated as the important thing, not the subject.

Thats how most sensible people in this country view it too......just a few who haven't got degrees get kicks out of telling people that their is worthless etc and how they've done fine in life without a degree :roll:

redddraggon

Tom BB wrote:

Heckler1974 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Oddly in Italy they think about it differently, they look upon the education gained and the focus needed to become degree educated as the important thing, not the subject.

Thats how most sensible people in this country view it too......just a few who haven't got degrees get kicks out of telling people that their is worthless etc and how they've done fine in life without a degree :roll:

You saying I haven't got a degree?

finchy

Tom BB wrote:

Heckler1974 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Oddly in Italy they think about it differently, they look upon the education gained and the focus needed to become degree educated as the important thing, not the subject.

Thats how most sensible people in this country view it too......just a few who haven't got degrees get kicks out of telling people that their is worthless etc and how they've done fine in life without a degree :roll:

I don't think that's the case. I've got a degree, I just don't see why employers are now suddenly demanding a degree for jobs which didn't previously need one.

simonaspinall

johnfinch wrote:

Tom BB wrote:

Heckler1974 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Oddly in Italy they think about it differently, they look upon the education gained and the focus needed to become degree educated as the important thing, not the subject.

Thats how most sensible people in this country view it too......just a few who haven't got degrees get kicks out of telling people that their is worthless etc and how they've done fine in life without a degree :roll:

I don't think that's the case. I've got a degree, I just don't see why employers are now suddenly demanding a degree for jobs which didn't previously need one.

Aids selection process - Raise the bar another notch. So now you have to be dynaminc, hardworking, creative, enthusiastic, dedicated and all that good stuff AND have a degree. With so many candidates per job it acts as an indicator to potential intelligence, people wanting to further themself + the standard of a degree education says they have reached a certain benchmark. This of course isn't to put down non-grads, their CV might have excellent experience and results + skills.

Just a way of wittling people down

Tom BB

redddraggon wrote:

Tom BB wrote:

Heckler1974 wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Aye, Education is a right, but a degree certificate in a random subject isn't.

Oddly in Italy they think about it differently, they look upon the education gained and the focus needed to become degree educated as the important thing, not the subject.

Thats how most sensible people in this country view it too......just a few who haven't got degrees get kicks out of telling people that their is worthless etc and how they've done fine in life without a degree :roll:

You saying I haven't got a degree?

Nope......