Student Fees Protest

spen666

I see all those rebellious student types are in London today for their protest in Parliament Sq re the new fees regime

These poor impoverished lot are clearly so impoverished that they can afford to take a day off their studies and afford to charter buses to London for the protest.

I say squeeze their purses even harder so they can't afford to make these rebellious protests


</ Victor Meldrew type rant over>

Removes tongue from cheek

redddraggon

UMSU were offering tickets down to London for £5.

I was tempted to go, as £5 would have been a bargain for a day out to London.

Ben6899

I feel sorry for these students who are gonna be crippled by debt when they eventually leave University.

I was on my lunch break the other week (in a provincial northern town) and there was a bit of a demonstration about the fee hikes with people making public speeches. I was stood listening until a bloke in double denim grabbed the mic and claimed that "the Tories have introduced these fee hikes to prevent working class kids from going to University".

Needless to say I left and went back to work as soon as I heard that. Chippy twats like him fuelling stereotypes and imaginary "class divides" really make my water boil.

daveydave43

not all students are demonstrating, myself included.
forty thousand pounds of debt is a large amount, but people cope with worse. it's bordering on hypocrisy to say: yes, we need cuts, (and we really do need cuts) but, hell, you aren't cutting from me.
where do we cut from?

inkyfingers

Ironically, it was Labours misguided obsession with sending every Tom, Dick and Harry to university that is causing the current funding problems. I fully agree that everybody should have the opportunity to go to University, but that doesn't mean that everybody should go. If universities had remained elite educational institutions catering only for those who are super bright or who really need a university education for their chosen career then we would have far fewer in university and hopefully be more able to fund cheaper education for all. When I was a student 10 years ago there were a lot of people there who shouldn't have been there, not because they were thick but because they were only there as it was drummed into them that this is what they should do, when in fact they may have been more suited to going out to work, doing a college course or an apprenticeship.

spen666

@ Inkyfingers - the fact that people in further or higher education do not count as unemployed is entirely co-incidental to the thinking of Labour

inkyfingers

spen666 wrote:

@ Inkyfingers - the fact that people in further or higher education do not count as unemployed is entirely co-incidental to the thinking of Labour

Of course not.....

rick_chasey

*sigh*

I think those who went to university when it was free are not really in a position to sneer at students protesting about student fees and debt.

As ever, Stewart Lee's opinion is not too far from the mark.

Tom BB

Ooh, they've lit a fire now!

40,000 turnout....not bad!

Cleat Eastwood

Rick Chasey wrote:

*sigh*

I think those who went to university when it was free are not really in a position to sneer at students protesting about student fees and debt.

As ever, Stewart Lee's opinion is not too far from the mark.

+100.

redddraggon

Education is a right.

A university degree is a privilege.

Cleat Eastwood

redddraggon wrote:

Education is a right.

A university degree is a privilege.

but it shouldn't only be for the privileged.

singlespeedexplosif

Ironically, it was Labours misguided obsession with sending every Tom, Dick and Harry to university that is causing the current funding problems.

to be fair, it was the tories who changed all the polytechnics and swimming pools into universities.

rick_chasey

I don't agree with people suggesting university should be only for the elite.

From a macro perspective, Britain, and indeed Europe's international competitiveness relies heavily on it being a knowledge based economy, which is driven by a highly skilled and qualified workforce. The more people who become that, the better.

Sure, some institutions should be for the smartest and hardest working - but that doesn't mean they are the only people who deserve further education.

jibberjim

Rick Chasey wrote:

From a macro perspective, Britain, and indeed Europe's international competitiveness relies heavily on it being a knowledge based economy, which is driven by a highly skilled and qualified workforce. The more people who become that, the better.

But that would assume that getting a degree creates more skilled workers (qualifications are irrelevant, it's the skills that matter) particularly compared to the lost time by these intelligent workers who could be producing.

rick_chasey

jibberjim wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

From a macro perspective, Britain, and indeed Europe's international competitiveness relies heavily on it being a knowledge based economy, which is driven by a highly skilled and qualified workforce. The more people who become that, the better.

But that would assume that getting a degree creates more skilled workers (qualifications are irrelevant, it's the skills that matter) particularly compared to the lost time by these intelligent workers who could be producing.

If we assume if the proportional talent available accross society is the same in every nation globally - a reasonable assumption - then the reason the UK does so well with the high- value added highly skilled economy is in large part because of its education system. Why withhold that valuable - value added nature - i.e. further education, from parts of the economy?

University doesn't have to be all academic? It can be vocational?

Everyone benefits from high quality education. Sometiems you need to be a little older, say over 16, to really get the benefits and the value added.

mroli

£10k per year for a uni education - that would pay for a year at a top private school where you would have lessons Mon-Fri 8.30 - 3.30 and sport on a Saturday.

As opposed to the 6 hours a week of staff contact I had at Uni.

I have a lot of sympathy with the students on this one.

shm_uk

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

redddraggon wrote:

Education is a right.

A university degree is a privilege.

but it shouldn't only be for the privileged.

It's not, just the privileged aren't saddled with massive debt afterwards.
Nobody said you can't go to Uni unless you have money.

If I so wish, I have the right to go out and buy a Porsche 911 Turbo.
But I can't afford a Porsche 911 Turbo without taking on a huge debt.
So, I choose not to own one.

Same with a degree.
If you can accept the debt, nothings stopping you.
But you have the choice not to go to university.

At the end of the day, neither a Porsche 911 or a University Education are essential.

Stupid example, I know, but not all that different.


I do sympathise with the Students from the standpoint that the govt paid my tuition feeswhen I did my degree (1992-1995).

With the UK economy knackered, cuts must be made across the board. I don't see why anyone should get special treatment or be exempt (perhaps with the exception of essential public services). But that's a whole other arguement...

simonaspinall

For many young people, it's the fear of NOT going to the university as an apprenticeship or old City and Guilds type qualifications are seen as inferior.

What's needed is the degree equivalent of a vocational course that carries the same weight as a degree, done with a company and part-time learning that is admired and in demand. (As opposed to modern NVQs "Not very qualified")

These could be high-quality manual work but also high-tech skills treated as a trade - Web Programming, computer engineer - Turning the craft and trades of old and updating the list to include modern day staples. Is it really necessary to get a graphic design degree when you can complete a graphic design city and guilds qualification (or whatever the title will be).

There's a shortage of decent bike mechanics!

rick_chasey

simonaspinall wrote:

For many young people, it's the fear of NOT going to the university as an apprenticeship or old City and Guilds type qualifications are seen as inferior.

Indeed, and who sees those as inferior?

Students can't win in this situation.

The older generation wants students to pay their way through education so that they can fund said older generation's pensions.

*score*

beatsystem

"Ironically, it was Labours misguided obsession with sending every Tom, Dick and Harry to university that is causing the current funding problems. I fully agree that everybody should have the opportunity to go to University, but that doesn't mean that everybody should go. If universities had remained elite educational institutions catering only for those who are super bright or who really need a university education for their chosen career then we would have far fewer in university and hopefully be more able to fund cheaper education for all. When I was a student 10 years ago there were a lot of people there who shouldn't have been there, not because they were thick but because they were only there as it was drummed into them that this is what they should do, when in fact they may have been more suited to going out to work, doing a college course or an apprenticeship."

Quite right! Am retiring this month after 27 years and i agree with your comments

freehub

I don't find it a privilege to be doing a BSc (Hons) degree, almost anyone can get into uni it's not a privilege.

simonaspinall

Rick Chasey wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

For many young people, it's the fear of NOT going to the university as an apprenticeship or old City and Guilds type qualifications are seen as inferior.

Indeed, and who sees those as inferior?

Students can't win in this situation.

The older generation wants students to pay their way through education so that they can fund said older generation's pensions.

*score*

True - it is incredible how those who got a free degree lecture today's students

shm_uk

Tom BB wrote:

Ooh, they've lit a fire now!

40,000 turnout....not bad!

A fire. How very predictable.


The poor little darlings have also broken into Millbank Tower and thrown smoke bombs.
Then called the Govt some names.

Bless their little cotton socks.

i wonder if their mothers know they're out on their own in big nasty London?

redddraggon

To those more economically knowledgeable than me, how do you suggest we continue paying for everything?

Every announced cut seems to be abhorred by someone. But surely some priorities have to be made - like health, primary/secondary education?

Tom BB

freehub wrote:

I don't find it a privilege to be doing a BSc (Hons) degree, almost anyone can get into uni it's not a privilege.

You said it!

Seriously though, unless you are privileged, then 40k of student debt is just ludicrous and imo unfair......someone compared a degree with a porche 911 earlier in the thread, I'm sure you'd agree that the desire to own a flash car is a materialistic one....is the same to be said of a desire for a university education?

rick_chasey

redddraggon wrote:

To those more economically knowledgeable than me, how do you suggest we continue paying for everything?

Every announced cut seems to be abhorred by someone. But surely some priorities have to be made - like health, primary/secondary education?

Let those who can actually afford to, pay the full whack.

Then gradually reduce it down, so that those who can't afford anything, don't pay anything.

Tax the well off a little harder as well?

jibberjim

Rick Chasey wrote:

Why withhold that valuable - value added nature - i.e. further education, from parts of the economy?

Because you've yet to show the benefit, you're assuming it's beneficial to everyone else to subsidise people at university, I don't buy that supposition since the number of people who utilise the education they get at university is not universal and the lack of having these clever people working for an extra 3 or more years is quite a cost to make up anyway even if the education was useful.

Equally if we assume that the economy is rational and the individuals do add value to it, then it is also the case that the majority of benefits of the education will go to the indivual with the training. Therefore having everyone else subsidise the individual when they'll be getting the benefit is a pretty poor idea for everyone else.

Rick Chasey wrote:

University doesn't have to be all academic? It can be vocational?

If it's vocational, and generally useful to the vocations, then the organisations getting the benefit would rationally pay for it.

simonaspinall

redddraggon wrote:

To those more economically knowledgeable than me, how do you suggest we continue paying for everything?

Every announced cut seems to be abhorred by someone. But surely some priorities have to be made - like health, primary/secondary education?

To continue paying for things in the future you need a skilled, experienced and knowledgeable workforce - Whether that's degree qualified, apprenticeships, vacational and manual or whatever.

If you can't afford to get those skills at degree level then UK PLC takes a hit - less tax revenue, less investment in the UK because the skills aren't here and less corporation tax etc. The extra tax a graduate pays and the wealth they create in the public/private sector and the corporate tax that also creates easily outweighs the cost to the tax payer.

As has been said previously in another thread - The benefits of a uni education is individual, the benefits of a university educated population is in the public interest.

My proposal: De-degree certain subjects which should never have been made into academic university study. University study is academic - Leave the more vocational courses and studies to colleges and on the job training with part-time learning. Oh, apart from doctors...they can go to uni.

Also, encourage more employees in companies to do degrees subsidised by the organisation.

singlespeedexplosif

£10k per year for a uni education - that would pay for a year at a top private school where you would have lessons Mon-Fri 8.30 - 3.30 and sport on a Saturday.

As opposed to the 6 hours a week of staff contact I had at Uni.

I have a lot of sympathy with the students on this one.

6 hours a week? Jebus, what did you study?
approx 50hrs per week when I was a lad, etc.

jibberjim

Tom BB wrote:

Seriously though, unless you are privileged, then 40k of student debt is just ludicrous and imo unfair......someone compared a degree with a porche 911 earlier in the thread, I'm sure you'd agree that the desire to own a flash car is a materialistic one....is the same to be said of a desire for a university education?

There are three general reasons to want a degree - one is a vanity issue so you can lord it over your lesser friends who couldn't get the same as you, that is exactly like a porche 911. The more normal one is an investment in your career so you can earn more later in life, it's not clear why that investment should be funded by others. Or a third is because you simply enjoy learning and want to learn more, this is more similar to the first one, there is little benefit to the society at large until you're doing genuine research that is funded, the funding of that could be enough to repay your debts.