Heart rate - is this right?
guillaume
Posts: 35
I've been using a turbo trainer & hrm for the first time recently, & am wondering about my max heart rate. I tried to determine it by gradually increasing speed / effort on a long flat stretch of road - it came to about 188 (i'm 46 & not overweight - if that's relevant). I think the nearst I can get to that on the turbo is about 180, or maybe184. But then on 2 separate road rides I recorded a 220 and 224 while trying to go fast up big hills. I can't get anywhere near those readings on the trainer, so I'm wondering if they might be errors of some sort...could my hrm be affected by the bike computer perhaps? re the trainer the most I can sustain over a 15 min period is about 175 max - so, assuming i'm reasonably fit, does that mean my max heart rate is likely to be nearer 188 than 220? bit confused...
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Your other figures seem much more reasonable!
If they really were up at 220 at your age I would get a check up with your doc. And also depending on your fitness you should be a bit careful of extreme testing without somebody else being about.
If you do a limit test in a lab you will have to fill in a form and sign a no liability form!
It's actually quite hard to get a max HR without someone pushing you - I never come near mine even on steep hills and TT's.
Tom
there isn't one...
I've not done anything specific in terms of finding my HR Max but i have so far recorded 190 on the road and 194 on the turbo and come close to them again on a few occasions. I know HR is an individual thing but your 220's are almost certainly rogue values.
The standard usually quoted is 220 - age which supposedly can vary +/-15 and at least +20 for me.
You aren't alone
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... e&start=20
As you see in my highly unscientific survey more people were outside of 15bmp than any other category.
http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=118&Itemid=145
I've seen various HR percentages quoted in different places for equating with training zones but for me these ones seem to work well and really tie in with the effort put in.
Ignore the generic 220-age formulas, thers mountains of research that show for most people they are wildly innacurate.
Are they logging HR's? One of the easy way to get false readings is on fast descents. So it could be the max's actually come from the descent on the other side if not.
If its a wireless computer it could be getting interference or losing signal along the ride..
technology aside, doesnt the fact that i cant approach those figures on a turbo mean that they must be rogue? or are there too many variables at play?
When descending the jersey flaps and produces static electricity... both of which can result. A tight base layer will negate this as will wetting the contacts.
Yep, pretty much, unless you can get to within 10 beats pretty easily, it's unlikely to be genuine max.
I spent all this year thinking my max HR was 183 BPM (same approach as you looking at max on hills), setting training zones accordingly.
I did a proper assisted ramp test last month, found my max was actually 188 BPM, short selling my zones. Doesn't sound much but it took me at least 2 weeks to get used the change in zones that it caused!
i think training in heart rate zones is a bad idea, i think it is best to ride on feel, sure look at your heart rate after, and never road race to your heart rate as it will only be super hard for a certain amount of time and then there will be a lull in the race in which you can recover in
If you want to train properly you can't do it on feel alone very well. There is a delay in a HRM which makes Power the best method but then most people can't afford to work with power.
Having been properly tested this year and now training using exact heart rate zones and importantly paying attention to them when riding (not just looking at an avergae result on finishing) my training rides are currently very different to what I had been doing before.
https://www.h3otriathlon.com
Motivation, Motivation, Motivation.
Whether you use tools like, training programmes or high tech methods, or rewards (buying bike gear like Power Meters) or competition.
Any method that gets you out on the bike will have some measure of success.
HR Zones, Power and Feel have all managed to train successful TdF winners. There is no clear evidence that one method is better than another. And there is no real way to scientifically test it, as you can't do a blind study. For example, - those using say 'Power Meter's' know they are using Power Meters and will get a placebo effect because everyone is saying that Power Meters are the way to go. Where there are studies they are very low statistical power - They are usually on very small groups (<20) and can not be predictive, even if they find a statistical difference.
If, for example, you are just trying to complete the Etape or get a better time, then you just need to gradually get your fitness strength and power up. Any technique which targets this will do.
Power on the road is a bit random as most British roads can have some dramatic little ascents (all be it very short). It is almost impossible to just keep a uniform power. Also when competing with the traffic you are often forced to apply more power just to keep a safe road position - This is also True for HR Zones. Try staying calm or using less Power when you trying to hold a position in bit of road which stops some Truck stupidly trying to overtake at that point. Whoops I have to overtake a tractor - oops my HR just went up.
Training is really about being on the bike and making varying degrees of effort and then ensuring you have some recovery time - I once read a lovely article that argued the case to use a dice to decide if they should go hard and fast, hard, steady, relaxed, or easy or have day off. What ever motivates you - Use.
Pro rider cover ten's of thousands of miles on the bike each year - It's pretty basic - just put more hours in and make sure some are hard.
Some people (sales – my whizzo equipment, coaches- my whizzo training plan, sports experts - my whizzo academic career) would have you believe if you use their magic plan or equipment it will transform your riding - just ask? Is this going to motivate me? Am I just spending money? Or is spending money and buying into it motivating me?
My experience tells me that you only know how bad or good you are when you are forced to ride with other riders and keep up! Just joining a club can help or riding with friends (as long as they are much stronger!). Although I did enjoy a Performance Test with Dr Garry Palmer to see how I was doing as he was a good external observer and could really compare my performance with other riders - Garry was very motivating and suggested I go a bit easier – which I did – for a while.
I have trained with HRZ, Power and feeling.- now I just use feeling - it's just so much easier - and last year I knocked 2 minutes of my time trial best – my goal. I used any method and all to get me out on the bike - now I just look out of the window and hope it doesn't rain too much....
However you train enjoy it and I am not sure their can be any 'bad advice' . All advice should be considered in context. Everybody is different what works for one person does not necessarily work for another.....
For example - Personally I cant's stand a written plan but my friend has every day written out - I have managed to beat him quite a few times.....
Finally - what are you trying to achieve? To back extrapolate from what the pro's are doing to an average rider who's trying to ride the Etape- is a bit as they say 'Random'
Foe me the key is to enjoy being out on the bike.
Tom
Oh sh*t.....it's raining....
Blame the coach in that case (and the rider for sticking with a program that isn't working), not the science behind it.
PTP Runner Up 2015
To get an estimate from various calculated methods see this page:
http://www.brianmac.co.uk/maxhr.htm
All the top methods are within 3 beats of my measured ramp test max (So just average them for a practical figure)!
To get an actual measurement, as sometimes these calculations can be out a little, do a ramp test like this:
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2010/01/ ... ramp-test/
or look at this
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/cycling-training
Remember all measurements have uncertainties ie errors due to equipment used and methods - These errors are part of all scientific measurements - There is no perfect answer and it is unsurprising that theory and testing will not perfectly match!
But the calculations and a ramp test will get you to a figure to work with.
I hope this helps....
Tom
Gavin
Not all training is about going hard all the time. Building base is a recognised method of increasing your overall ability. Perhaps he wasn't coached properly, or wasn't following the coaching detail, diet, sleep, could be many reasons why he isn't making progress.
It would be very nice if when you trained you improved – and the more you trained and followed a training plan etc the faster you went and hills just sailed by. It would then just be a simple case of training. In the long term, as mentioned, if your are a pro and do tens of thousands of miles, travel to Mallorca and train for months (not days), this is probably true.
However, when you train for under, say, 15 hours a week everybody is looking for the magic formula that will let you feel and see a real improvement for a little effort. But get real, even 15 hours (and who has that amount of time) is not much time in terms of a week (168 hours).
For me I feel strongly that the main issue is motivation as previously mentioned. I have found numerous way's in the past to get myself motivated.
The worst thing and most demotivating is the Dreaded Plateau. It can last weeks and months, it can sap your strength and motivation. Especially when somebody cycles clean past you and you're wheezing and puffing – especially when you look at them and they are 20 years older and flying past. Motivation then takes a deep dip, when for weeks your training efforts gets no measurable improvement.
The thing is the plateau is 'normal' even pro's go through this and it's written about in cycling performance books. But the plateau is the period before the next rise and it will happen. Your performance will improve – you just have to look deep for the motivation.
However, training and the response to training is not linear (for every hour of training you are not guaranteed 1 hours worth of improvement) and no matter how much research has been done nobody has the answer. A coach may be able to keep you motivated and sometimes the advice maybe to back off and not force it. And sometimes that will work. Ideally the coaches role is to guide and keep you motivated, looking for weak spots in the training.
But if you get too pissed off, motivation may die and you may give up. If you have some good friends to ride with they will help you, pushing you and then letting you recover. If they are that good they can always top their own training with a few extra miles.
However, some riders just like to drop people and there are lot's of technical ways to do that. For example, knowing the course and making a big effort when you know that you will get a recovery soon. Letting the person to be dropped make too big an effort before a bit where they can put the power on, just as the dropee's legs are empty. I've done it and had it done to me! I once creamed some riders going up a hill in Mallorca knowing I was going to turn off and not do the big climb – but they all hung on to me huffing and puffing and eventually I shook them off.
You will get better – slowly your average speed will improve – your stamina will improve – you will go faster – hills will be shorter – sprints will be faster...........and the day will come when you are sailing past somebody who is huffing and puffing and you will know how they feel.
Tom