Is getting knocked off inevitable?

jonny_trousers

Thanks for the well wishes boys and girls. I must get one thing straight, however, I was NOT filtering to the left of a stationary line of traffic. An assumption was made in a reply early on in this thread and a few of you have taken it as fact. Kennington Road was rather clear as I cycled down it. The woman that hit me overtook me at about 30mph and then quickly swung a left. I have no memory of her indicating. I am well aware of the dangers of filtering to the left of a jam and if ever I have to, I do so carefully and slowly.

From the moment I found myself on the floor I reminded myself that it could have been so much worse and asked, what could I have done to avoid the situation? The answer I have come up with is almost nothing. I've wondered if disc brakes would have slowed me quicker, but in the half a second reaction time I had, I doubt it. I have thought about side lighting/reflection and will use it in future (beyond what my very high viz jacket offers already), but if the driver wasn't looking then she wasn't looking. I could have been riding slower, which would have reduced impact intensity, but I doubt would have given me enough time to avoid her entirely.

I will get back on the bike (once it's repaired), I couldn't stand going back to public transport or the car, but I'm afraid I will have to be slower and more cautious. I only began commuting by bike last March and I have already experienced several close calls culminating in the hit last night, which prompted me to pose the thread title question. Is being hit inevitable? No, but I suspect it is highly likely.

Thanks for all the useful advice above, and the 'what to do in the case of an accident' thread has already proved very helpful.

PS. Yes, there is a nice dent in the car and I am pleased to announce that there are worse bonnets to bounce off than a mini's

Clever Pun

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Thanks for the well wishes boys and girls. I must get one thing straight, however, I was NOT filtering to the left of a stationary line of traffic. An assumption was made in a reply early on in this thread and a few of you have taken it as fact. Kennington Road was rather clear as I cycled down it. The woman that hit me overtook me at about 30mph and then quickly swung a left. I have no memory of her indicating. I am well aware of the dangers of filtering to the left of a jam and if ever I have to, I do so carefully and slowly.

umm why didn't you say that in the initial post that completely changes everything, you are at no way in fault

toontra

Aaarggh - the "overtake and quickly turn left" type! They are the worst. Several times after narrow scrapes I've followed these drivers and had a good verbal go at them. Totally moronic driving and extremely dangerous, usually as a result of total unawareness of how to behave around cyclists (or not giving a damn).

As you say, nothing you can do in these circumstances.

SimonAH

Yup. Sorry we all made assumptions about how / where you were riding.

Disc brakes by the way won't help. I stood my fixie on it's nose a couple of days ago when a little old lady stepped out in front of me with no warning - and I do mean on it's nose, frame at 45 degrees to the horizontal. That's with a standard well adjusted short reach caliper and good pads.

jonny_trousers

SimonAH wrote:

Yup. Sorry we all made assumptions about how / where you were riding.

Disc brakes by the way won't help. I stood my fixie on it's nose a couple of days ago when a little old lady stepped out in front of me with no warning - and I do mean on it's nose, frame at 45 degrees to the horizontal. That's with a standard well adjusted short reach caliper and good pads.

Must have looked very cool too.

As an aside, did any of you guys find London riding scary yesterday? A mate of mine told me that there were so many bad cyclists and dodgy pedestrians out yesterday evening that she had to get off her bike and push in the end. My girlfriend, in coming to pick me u,p also reported crazy drivers on the roads. A bad combination of the tube strike and it being one of those mad days perhaps?

W1

It's not inevitable, but you can be the most concientious and safe cyclist in the world and still suffer due to someone elses moronity.

It's a bit like driving really - I think most people will have an accident of some sort at some stage of their driving careers, whether their own fault or not.

I've had a few offs on the bike - I've also tripped on the pavement a few times whilst walking. Unless you want to stay in the house wrapped up in a duvet all your life then it is likely that accidents will happen.

dhope

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

As an aside, did any of you guys find London riding scary yesterday? A mate of mine told me that there were so many bad cyclists and dodgy pedestrians out yesterday evening that she had to get off her bike and push in the end. My girlfriend, in coming to pick me u,p also reported crazy drivers on the roads. A bad combination of the tube strike and it being one of those mad days perhaps?

Did notice a few more prats on the way in, and traffic was horrendous on the way back but nothing scary, just slow.

hatbeard

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

As an aside, did any of you guys find London riding scary yesterday? A mate of mine told me that there were so many bad cyclists and dodgy pedestrians out yesterday evening that she had to get off her bike and push in the end. My girlfriend, in coming to pick me u,p also reported crazy drivers on the roads. A bad combination of the tube strike and it being one of those mad days perhaps?

I stayed at the pub til 7.20pm and the roads were really quiet in most places on the way back to greenwich.

hambones

Whether it is inevitable or not would depend on so many factors, including where you ride, what times of day, what conditions, your road awareness and ability etc etc.

I would suggest that far from being inevitable it is extremely unlikely, basing it solely on my set of circumstances.

As for the right hook with cars crossing in front - I am surprised anyone falls foul of this as being on a bike you have far greater visibility ahead of you on account of being up higher than the majority of other road traffic. Should your view happen to be blocked by a larger vehicle adjust your riding style accordingly...

Of course having posted this I'll probably come a cropper now!

ride_whenever

I'm not so sure, i've been hit twice by cars and not come off either time...

thank god!

UndercoverElephant

Paraphrasing the House of Lords the other day, for every 1 year of life expectancy lost due to being splatted by a car, you gain 20 for being a cyclist.

I'll take those odds.

Headhuunter

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

Yup. Sorry we all made assumptions about how / where you were riding.

Disc brakes by the way won't help. I stood my fixie on it's nose a couple of days ago when a little old lady stepped out in front of me with no warning - and I do mean on it's nose, frame at 45 degrees to the horizontal. That's with a standard well adjusted short reach caliper and good pads.

Must have looked very cool too.

As an aside, did any of you guys find London riding scary yesterday? A mate of mine told me that there were so many bad cyclists and dodgy pedestrians out yesterday evening that she had to get off her bike and push in the end. My girlfriend, in coming to pick me u,p also reported crazy drivers on the roads. A bad combination of the tube strike and it being one of those mad days perhaps?

It's unbelievable that a WPC would do something like that! That's the sort of behaviour you expect from a chav in a hatch with blacked out windows not someone who upholds the law!

Yes, I found the roads a lot busier both with dodgy cyclists, dodgy pedestrians and especially dodgy drivers. You could tell that some were completely unused to driving in London and were often desperate to overtake only to have to brake sharply a matter of metres later for a queue of traffic, at which point I would sail past them...

Strangely my route along OKR in the morning at about 8am was pretty much no different to normal - traffic was about the same, no more people patricularly walking or cycling. But on the way home at about 6.30-7pm it was much more frenetic...

jonny_trousers

hambones wrote:

As for the right hook with cars crossing in front - I am surprised anyone falls foul of this as being on a bike you have far greater visibility ahead of you on account of being up higher than the majority of other road traffic.

How about if you are riding at about 20mph and you have half a second to react? I guess my bunny-hopping skills are not what they should be.

hambones wrote:

Of course having posted this I'll probably come a cropper now!

I sincerely hope you do not.

nich

but I'm afraid I will have to be slower and more cautious

This is what I did

Sadly I lose my scalp on a regular basis, but after a collision I had its put me on edge.

I regularly see experienced looking cyclists powering along, and flying past me, but they don't slow down when going past side roads.

Sure they look, but it's not enough really. On a daily basis I see car drivers speed upto junctions. they only need to overshoot by a couple of foot (they do this a lot in Catford!) and they'll have us cyclists off

jedster

yep, sorry, misread the original post - thought it was someone turning left onto the road not pulling off.

Now that is tricky.

I guess it is an inherently dodgy situation when you are filtering up inside stationary traffic and passing a turning (even if you are filtering in a bus lane).

The basic principle has to be that you must EXPECT drivers to do the wrong thing here and adjust your speed accordingly. If you are travelling at a speed that is safe PROVIDED drivers look properly then you are putting your body on the line.

J

hambones

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

How about if you are riding at about 20mph and you have half a second to react? I guess my bunny-hopping skills are not what they should be..

I have never been in a situation where I have such a short space of time to react, on account of my point about being able to see ahead of the car in front and therefore being able to anticipate the traffic. There's always a first for everything though but as you say let's hope not!

Origamist

hambones wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

How about if you are riding at about 20mph and you have half a second to react? I guess my bunny-hopping skills are not what they should be..

I have never been in a situation where I have such a short space of time to react, on account of my point about being able to see ahead of the car in front and therefore being able to anticipate the traffic. There's always a first for everything though but as you say let's hope not!

Maybe in 30mph limits you will have more time to react, but when the speed limit ramps up, sightlines become obscured, and closing distances and reaction times compress, I can assure you events can unravel very quickly.

In this vid, I'd hazard the driver was doing 35mph+ and I was doing 25mph:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrksX3uMvfg

@Jonny, I hope you heal up soon. I loop around Kennington every morning and I see plenty of near misses in the rush-hour.

jonny_trousers

jedster wrote:

The basic principle has to be that you must EXPECT drivers to do the wrong thing here and adjust your speed accordingly. If you are travelling at a speed that is safe PROVIDED drivers look properly then you are putting your body on the line.

J

So I have learnt, and perhaps it is a lesson I have been taught relatively lightly. The thing is for me, I like to ride fast. I like to feel my heartbeat race. I like to get the cardio exercise I used to bore myself to tears acheiving in the gym, but I'll now have to be more sensible. When I say 'fast' I am only talking up to 25mph on the flat and I pride myself on being an extremely aware cyclist (and motorist for that matter), but as I have discovered, it's not always about my ability to ride safely.

So it's sensible pootling for me on the commute from now on and I'll get my cardio workout on blasts out to where the idiot London drivers cannot be found.

jonny_trousers

Origamist wrote:

In this vid, I'd hazard the driver was doing 35mph+ and I was doing 25mph:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrksX3uMvfg

@Jonny, I hope you heal up soon. I loop around Kennington every morning and I see plenty of near misses in the rush-hour.

Youch! My heartbeat skipped for you in that vid.

Thanks mate. I'm sure I'll heal. It's just a little scary when your knee clinks painfully with every step you take.

Not that they will read this, but I have to say a massive thank you to the witnesses. There were at least four people who looked after me in that wonderful, calm-in-a-crisis, British manner (as well as the lovely Eastern European girl on her own bike).

Headhuunter

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Origamist wrote:

In this vid, I'd hazard the driver was doing 35mph+ and I was doing 25mph:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrksX3uMvfg

@Jonny, I hope you heal up soon. I loop around Kennington every morning and I see plenty of near misses in the rush-hour.

Youch! My heartbeat skipped for you in that vid.

Thanks mate. I'm sure I'll heal. It's just a little scary when your knee clinks painfully with every step you take.

Not that they will read this, but I have to say a massive thank you to the witnesses. There were at least four people who looked after me in that wonderful, calm-in-a-crisis, British manner (as well as the lovely Eastern European girl on her own bike).

What did A&E say about your injuries? My hip still clicks sometimes from my crash when a car pulled across in front of me almost exactly a year ago... I saw a physio who said that A&E staff do miss things like slight fractures etc

ooermissus

Do the police take any action in a case like this?

jonny_trousers

Headhuunter wrote:

What did A&E say about your injuries? My hip still clicks sometimes from my crash when a car pulled across in front of me almost exactly a year ago... I saw a physio who said that A&E staff do miss things like slight fractures etc

They said it looked very much like a strained tendon next to the knee rather than a torn one and it should begin to get better over the next few days. If it does not, I have to go back again. The rest is just scrapes and bruising (I think).

Re. the police comment above: I didn't involve them. Perhaps it was because I was dazed, but I just wanted as little fuss as possible. If my injuries heal well then all I want is the money for my bike to be returned to the excellent condition it was in. She's accepted responsibility and has promised to pay up, but I wonder if she knows what my bike is worth. If she kicks up a fuss then so will I (I have four excellent witnesses), but I am not keen on the American style litigation culture we are steadily becoming and so I very much doubt that Injury Lawyers for You will be receiving my call.

I do wonder if the headcam idea mentioned above might be a good idea for the future, however.

ooermissus

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Re. the police comment above: I didn't involve them.

I totally understand that and - as I explained in a recent thread - I had a very similar reaction when in a head on collision with a car (a police car as it happens) overtaking on a bend. (In my case, the police were called, but I agreed with them no further action was needed.)

But aren't the police supposed to be called when there's an accident where someone gets injured?

dhope

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

What did A&E say about your injuries? My hip still clicks sometimes from my crash when a car pulled across in front of me almost exactly a year ago... I saw a physio who said that A&E staff do miss things like slight fractures etc

They said it looked very much like a strained tendon next to the knee rather than a torn one and it should begin to get better over the next few days. If it does not, I have to go back again. The rest is just scrapes and bruising (I think).

Re. the police comment above: I didn't involve them. Perhaps it was because I was dazed, but I just wanted as little fuss as possible. If my injuries heal well then all I want is the money for my bike to be returned to the excellent condition it was in. She's accepted responsibility and has promised to pay up, but I wonder if she knows what my bike is worth. If she kicks up a fuss then so will I (I have four excellent witnesses), but I am not keen on the American style litigation culture we are steadily becoming and so I very much doubt that Injury Lawyers for You will be receiving my call.

I do wonder if the headcam idea mentioned above might be a good idea for the future, however.

Shouldn't imagine you'll need to go the ambulance chasing route. I spoke to the insurance company of the guy that hit me and they just asked what the bike cost and what my injuries were. I told them and they offered some cash. I thought it reasonable and accepted. No talk of lawyers, no talk of independent doctors etc.

Headhuunter

ooermissus wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Re. the police comment above: I didn't involve them.

I totally understand that and - as I explained in a recent thread - I had a very similar reaction when in a head on collision with a car (a police car as it happens) overtaking on a bend. (In my case, the police were called, but I agreed with them no further action was needed.)

But aren't the police supposed to be called when there's an accident where someone gets injured?

Keep hearing of accidents involving cyclists and the police. This is the 3rd one in the past few weeks. In fact soon after my accident last year, once I was back on the bike I almost ended up in exactly the same type of accident (vehicle turning right across my path, into a turn on my left) but this time it was an enormous police van...

Perhaps they need to address their own driving skills?

jonny_trousers

dhope wrote:

Shouldn't imagine you'll need to go the ambulance chasing route. I spoke to the insurance company of the guy that hit me and they just asked what the bike cost and what my injuries were. I told them and they offered some cash. I thought it reasonable and accepted. No talk of lawyers, no talk of independent doctors etc.

Thanks! The thing is I didn't get her insurance details. I have her phone number, registration and car details as well as the numbers for witnesses. Perhaps foolishly I asked her what the procedure was as she was a police officer. I could ask for it outright. Do you think that I should?

Headhuunter

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

dhope wrote:

Shouldn't imagine you'll need to go the ambulance chasing route. I spoke to the insurance company of the guy that hit me and they just asked what the bike cost and what my injuries were. I told them and they offered some cash. I thought it reasonable and accepted. No talk of lawyers, no talk of independent doctors etc.

Thanks! The thing is I didn't get her insurance details. I have her phone number, registration and car details as well as the numbers for witnesses. Perhaps foolishly I asked her what the procedure was as she was a police officer. I could ask for it outright. Do you think that I should?

I didn't have driver's insurance details immediately after my off, I had nothing as I was busy lying on the ground being tended to by an ambulance crew. I phoned the driver the next day and after it became clear that he wouldn't offer me any more than £200 which was about half the value of the bike (which was a full write off), I took his insurance details and went to Russell, Jones & Walker... I think drivers are obliged to hand over their insurance details if asked for them.

Cafewanda

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

I'm afraid I will have to be slower and more cautious.

PS. Yes, there is a nice dent in the car and I am pleased to announce that there are worse bonnets to bounce off than a mini's

Slower for the time being certainly, but please don't let this experience keep you in the slow lane permanently. It's mine and I'm not sharing :twisted:

She should be reported for your accident AND abuse of a Mini. They are lovely cars.

jonny_trousers

Headhuunter wrote:

I didn't have driver's insurance details immediately after my off, I had nothing as I was busy lying on the ground being tended to by an ambulance crew. I phoned the driver the next day and after it became clear that he wouldn't offer me any more than £200 which was about half the value of the bike (which was a full write off), I took his insurance details and went to Russell, Jones & Walker... I think drivers are obliged to hand over their insurance details if asked for them.

Thanks HH! Useful info there! I had to chain my bike up at work, but was thinking of taking it into Cycle Surgery next time I get to it so they can give me a quote for repair. If she refuses to cough up I will insist on her insurance details and get the lawyers on her ass.

A dwarf turned up at one stage, which was very peculiar and had me wondering if I had received a head wound after all.

dhope

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

I didn't have driver's insurance details immediately after my off, I had nothing as I was busy lying on the ground being tended to by an ambulance crew. I phoned the driver the next day and after it became clear that he wouldn't offer me any more than £200 which was about half the value of the bike (which was a full write off), I took his insurance details and went to Russell, Jones & Walker... I think drivers are obliged to hand over their insurance details if asked for them.

Thanks HH! Useful info there! I had to chain my bike up at work, but was thinking of taking it into Cycle Surgery next time I get to it so they can give me a quote for repair. If she refuses to cough up I will insist on her insurance details and get the lawyers on her ass.

A dwarf turned up at one stage, which was very peculiar and had me wondering if I had received a head wound after all.

+1 to what HH said. I had contact details but no insurance details. I asked for the details a few days later. No problem if you didn't get them at the time.