Is getting knocked off inevitable?

jonny_trousers

Well it was my turn this evening: off duty WPC swinging a left off Kennington Road without looking and causing me to hit her side on, bounce off the bonnet and hit the floor. It was a scary experience and I've just spent 3 hours at A&E. My legs hurt like hell, the skin on one knee has been removed and the other knee clicks with every step and is very painful. It has caused me to question the sense in commuting by bike. I think I'll get over it, but maybe I shouldn't. Maybe next time will be worse. I couldn't have done anything more to make myself noticeable: high viz/reflective jacket, clip on flashing LED on the back, 12 LED strobing Cateye on the rear, flashing white on the front. I was in the bus lane at least a metre from the curb, yet she just didn't bother to look to her left. Is it inevitable that we cycle commuters will get hit? Is it avoidable? Is it worth it?

woodford2barbican

Inevitable? Possibly.

But in a situation like this, sounds like driver was at fault, but you should still consider what you could have done to have avoided the accident. It might be nothing but still worth considering,

Doing that might give you the confidence to get back on your bike and commute again.

Have you checked out the what to do in an accident thread?

Anyway, glad that you are not too badly hurt and hope that you heal up quickly.

How is the bike?

_Brun_

Sorry to hear about the off, at least it sounds like nothing's broken. More importantly, how's the bike? You'll be needing that when the injuries have healed.

It sounds like you were riding down the bus lane past a queue of stationary or slow moving traffic. Situations like that always give me the willies, particularly approaching junctions. There's always a chance that a driver will do something daft, at the end of the day it's a judgement call as to what speed you feel is 'safe'.

As for being well-lit, maybe that instils a false sense of confidence that people will see you? Always fearing that people won't might be the way to stay in one piece. That was meant tongue in cheek, but actually sounds pretty sensible.

Hope getting up in the morning's not too painful.

rjsterry

I don't think it's inevitable: so far so good for me and I've been doing it for a few years now. I've had a fair few near misses though, and I can see why you might think that it is inevitable. I do ride pretty cautiously, which I think helps, and I'm aware of quite a few people filtering faster than me in heavy traffic. I'm happy to let them go, and chase them down if the traffic clears. The thing to remember is that people just can't be relied upon to look what they are doing, ever. When they do, it's a bonus.

shouldbeinbed

wrong place wrong time, s**t happens to all of us. I'm cautious but have had a couple of offs with cars, its maybe not inevitable but you'd be a very rare breed or a very infrequent rider not to have an accident somewhere.

you can't stop doing everything if something goes wrong very occasionally, how many uneventful rides have you enjoyed, wanna lose all of that? people die in cars every day, you can't guarantee that the artic behind you won't pulp you sat in your car, you can't legislate for a 7/7.

just make sure that whatever justice/insurance/compnsation is needed gets sorted out and hopefully she'll be a lttle more observant and in less of a hurry next time.

be a bit reflective on what you may have been able to do to anticipate what sounds like driver impatience or misjudgement but don't beat yourself up over it glad you're ok.

Kieran_Burns

I drive a whacking great Audi A4, I have the driving lights on permanently. I drive assertively but carefully. I STILL have people pull out in front of me because they don't look properly.

It happens.

You can't legislate for idiots, just do the best you can.

jeremyrundle

I assume you WILL take it further.

As I have said here many times I have six headcams from ebay, wouldnt go out without one and a backup.

http://sirpatrickmooresales.co.uk/Ourpage.aspx

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-Mini-DV-Digit ... 43a2e0e117

EXACTLY THE SAME CAMERA at Maplin Electronics £30.

No excuse not to have one.

dhope

Not inevitable but quite likely if you commute enough that you'll have an off either through your fault or someone else's. My first was 3 weeks ago. It's not dissuaded me from cycling.

I'm assuming the police know about it as it was a WPC that caught you, and you'll have a report from A&E. Take your time waiting til you heal up, get all the facts down on paper and give her insurance company a ring.

My overriding thought post-accident was very much "Well, could have been a lot worse" rather than thinking I was unlucky to have been hit in the first place.

MonkeyMonster

rjsterry wrote:

The thing to remember is that people just can't be relied upon to look what they are doing, ever. When they do, it's a bonus.

Exactly Mr RJSTerry. It's not inevitable at all.

SimonAH

Sorry to hear of your prang mate.

I've got to echo most of the above (and am seriously considering the helmet cam option).

But yes, the filtering down the left ESPECIALLY if there is a junction coming up is the scariest and most dangerous thing to do.

Cars do not expect to be overtaken on the left - only exception being where there is a really clearly marked. I would always recommend filtering motorbike style, they're trained to expect that.

Hope you feel better soon.

ooermissus

SimonAH wrote:

But yes, the filtering down the left ESPECIALLY if there is a junction coming up is the scariest and most dangerous thing to do.

Which is effectively saying that we shouldn't ride in bus lanes. I think that's crazy.

Sorry for your pain Jonny_Trousers - hope you're healing up.

squired

I remember a crash I saw a year or two ago. A car attempted to turn left from a queue of traffic, crossing a bus lane. Another car was zooming down the bus lane illegally and ploughed into him. Although I had no sympathy for the guy who had been trying to jump the queue by going down the bus lane he did say one important thing, "What if I'd been a bus?".

In the end a bus lane is a lane. It can have buses, taxis, cycles and motorbikes in it, so it is terrible if someone doesn't look before turning across it. Is a crash inevitable? I guess the same question could be asked to a car driver. If people cycle sensibly the risk of a crash will be greatly reduced, albeit not eliminated.

MonkeyMonster

ooermissus wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

But yes, the filtering down the left ESPECIALLY if there is a junction coming up is the scariest and most dangerous thing to do.

Which is effectively saying that we shouldn't ride in bus lanes. I think that's crazy..

No its not. He's [likely] saying that in the 2 car lengths before a left turn be prepared that cars might turn across you into the junction with little or no warning. You comment is verging on a daily mail esque thought process like "PEOPLE SHOULDN'T WALK ON PAVEMENTS, THEY MIGHT FALL OVER AND HURT THEMSELVES!"

Behave.

SimonAH

ooermissus wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

But yes, the filtering down the left ESPECIALLY if there is a junction coming up is the scariest and most dangerous thing to do.

Which is effectively saying that we shouldn't ride in bus lanes. I think that's crazy.

Sorry for your pain Jonny_Trousers - hope you're healing up.

Ah, OK, should have said 'clearly marked bus or cycle lane', but even then I'd be hyper cautious when theres a junction coming up.

ooermissus

SimonAH wrote:

ooermissus wrote:

SimonAH wrote:

But yes, the filtering down the left ESPECIALLY if there is a junction coming up is the scariest and most dangerous thing to do.

Which is effectively saying that we shouldn't ride in bus lanes. I think that's crazy.

Sorry for your pain Jonny_Trousers - hope you're healing up.

Ah, OK, should have said 'clearly marked bus or cycle lane', but even then I'd be hyper cautious when theres a junction coming up.

I am pretty cautious too - but it's tough to spot the abrupt move into the lane from the right - especially when you're also being wary about pedestrians wandering in from the left (which they are especially apt to do when traffic is stationary or near stationary, and there are no big red objects moving towards them in the bus lane).

Would be interested to know whether the WPC indicated or not - you can't always see an indicator in time, but it gives you half a chance...

(Thanks for the advice on my behaviour MonkeyMonster - and expressed so moderately. Well played, sir.)

UndercoverElephant

Sounds like you were well lit up front and rear, but there was no mention of any lighting to the side...

http://www.probikekit.com/display.php?code=A0416

Next time you see a cyclist coming along at night, check how visible they are from the side. Quite, most aren't at all. Hope you heal soon and well. Hopefully it's not inevitable.

Cafewanda

What I want to know is, why were Brun and Woodford awake at that hour of the morning :shock: Insomnia?


Sorry to hear about your off J_T. Don't let it put you off the bike for too long. All the best.

jedster

Ouch, sorry to hear about that - sounds painful.

I don't think these kind of accidents are inevitable. I don't think as cyclists we are helpless to avoid them.

Let me be very clear, this sounds like it was totally her fault. You should pursue her for damages.

That said, I think you could have been riding in a way that would have meant you could have avoided the crash even though she stupidly pulled out on you.

If I see a car waiting to pull out and turn left into the road I am cycling down, I do the following things:
1. shoulder check - to be aware of hazards coming from behind and alert any following vehicles that I might be about to manouvre
2. move out into primary (mid lane rather than just a metre out) or even wider towards the edge of the lane - it makes me even more visible to the driver (less in the periphery of her vision) and gives me more time to adjust if she starts to pull out
3. cover my brakes
4. if I am nervous (e.g., because I can see there isnt much room to take evasive action or because the driver is not checking in my direction) I will cut my speed as a precaution

Of course, drivers do pull out on me from time to time but thus far I've got away with a shake of the head and a few words rather than a trip to A&E because I've avoided hitting them.

J

Agent57

I don't think it's inevitable, no.

And I think it's worth it. While some people will end up in accidents, the same is true of any form of transport. Overall, benefits are likely to outweigh the risk of a major accident. Of course, it's up to the individual to decide where the tipping point is. For me, the risk of an accident is vastly outweighed by the fact that I'm more healthy for cycling, I get to work a lot faster by bike, it costs me a lot less than running a car, and I enjoy being on my bike more than I enjoy sitting behind a wheel in traffic.

ooermissus

jedster wrote:

I don't think these kind of accidents are inevitable. I don't think as cyclists we are helpless to avoid them.

Let me be very clear, this sounds like it was totally her fault. You should pursue her for damages.

That said, I think you could have been riding in a way that would have meant you could have avoided the crash even though she stupidly pulled out on you.

If I see a car waiting to pull out and turn left into the road I am cycling down, I do the following things:
1. shoulder check - to be aware of hazards coming from behind and alert any following vehicles that I might be about to manouvre
2. move out into primary (mid lane rather than just a metre out) or even wider towards the edge of the lane - it makes me even more visible to the driver (less in the periphery of her vision) and gives me more time to adjust if she starts to pull out...J

But does this advice apply to a bus lane? Especially one in London where traffic is often barely moving next to you?

As Jonny_Trousers found, it's very hard to spot when someone suddenly cuts from the main carriage way into the lane - sometimes right by a turning, but often some distance before (drivers often think that driving 20 metres or so in the lane is no big deal if it gets them to their turning faster).

As for cycling in the middle of the lane, most people do this in Central London bus lanes at all times - as peds will often wander out without looking and it's safer only to move in when you want to let a bus past.

msx98

i think it might be worth looking at this from the point of those driving.

I used to live in london then left because i couldnt bear commuting of any kind now living in a relatively rural area i enjoy safe cycling which i parreciate isnt what commuting is about.

my point is that i very rarely look in my left hand mirror and when i come to london i have to remind myself that it is absolutely necessary to do so.

sadly people dont do this enough and it is not an excuse in any way but it might explain why this kind of accident is so common.

london is london and people are always in a hurry, in a perfect world pedestrians wouldnt walk out in front of the red man and cyclist wouldn't gun a red light either.

i hope you get well soon and find the time to have a spin in the country it is a lush life and i wont be looking back!!!

n

shm_uk

"Is getting knocked off inevitable?"

I'm no statistician, but to my mind if it's not impossible for something to happen then it must therefore be inevitable.

Although this theory only applies if the timescale is infinite, therefore within any individuals cycling lifetime it's not inevitable, just possible. Unless you live forever. Which is impossible.

I've just talked myself out of my own theory haven't I.

_Brun_

Cafewanda wrote:

What I want to know is, why were Brun and Woodford awake at that hour of the morning :shock: Insomnia?

Didn't get home from work till midnight. Bought a bottle of wine on the way back and was winding down for a couple of hours before bed.

Quite tired today, probably have to do it again tonight as well.

MonkeyMonster

shm_uk wrote:

"Is getting knocked off inevitable?"

I'm no statistician, but to my mind if it's not impossible for something to happen then it must therefore be inevitable.

Although this theory only applies if the timescale is infinite, therefore within any individuals cycling lifetime it's not inevitable, just possible. Unless you live forever. Which is impossible.

I've just talked myself out of my own theory haven't I.

yes, in a most amusing manner too

made me smile thankyou.

Cafewanda

_Brun_ wrote:

Cafewanda wrote:

What I want to know is, why were Brun and Woodford awake at that hour of the morning :shock: Insomnia?

Didn't get home from work till midnight. Bought a bottle of wine on the way back and was winding down for a couple of hours before bed.

Quite tired today, probably have to do it again tonight as well.

Horlicks? :twisted:

Clever Pun

filtering down the left of cars is dangerous sometimes you can tell someone is going to turn left even if they're not indicating

basically if you're careful at junctions being knocked off is very avoidable, don't be afraid to take primary or filter to the right(which I've explained previously is safer at junctions imo)

gtvlusso

String? How long?

jeremyrundle

Air Zound ...............

ooermissus

Clever Pun wrote:

filtering down the left of cars is dangerous

And once again... the OP was in a bus lane. Bus lanes are there - surely - to allow authorised users to keep moving even when traffic in other lanes is crawling along or stationary - which is most of the time in central London. If you're not going to filter on the left, then you can't use London bus lanes.

toontra

ooermissus wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

filtering down the left of cars is dangerous

And once again... the OP was in a bus lane. Bus lanes are there - surely - to allow authorised users to keep moving even when traffic in other lanes is crawling along or stationary - which is most of the time in central London. If you're not going to filter on the left, then you can't use London bus lanes.

True, but as an earlier poster said, you should always be aware that filtering on the left is fraught with danger, especially at junctions, both from accidents like the OP had but also oncoming vehicles cutting across you to turn right through a gap in stationary traffic (and therefore often completely invisible until the last second when it's too late).

Whatever the rights and wrongs it pays to filter carefully, even in bus lanes - it doesn't really matter who's fault it is if you're badly injured or killed.

Clever Pun

ooermissus wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

filtering down the left of cars is dangerous

And once again... the OP was in a bus lane. Bus lanes are there - surely - to allow authorised users to keep moving even when traffic in other lanes is crawling along or stationary - which is most of the time in central London. If you're not going to filter on the left, then you can't use London bus lanes.

doesn't mean you're safe and on a bike you're still effectively filtering to the left and not being a bus people will miss you.

Spend a lot of my commute in bus lanes and people turning across you is also quite a hazard.

As cyclists we are very vulnerable and as such you should ride defensively