Cancellara Greipel Mccewen weight training.
warrior4life
Posts: 925
In the new mens fitness it states that Fab deadlifts 200kg even though he only weighs 80kg
Also i think it was the tour of britain where they said that in winter Greipel does a lot of upper body work in the gym.
Allan Peiper in his book says that Robbie Mccewen does a lot of weight training in the gym.
Has anyone got any ideas what exercises these guys do?
Ive seen Lance's training video's on youtube and i remember a piece on the tour back in 91 that showed lemonds home gym and he talked about doing heavy squats and leg presses.
I've worked as a personal trainer at David Lloyd and many other gyms so i know what i would do but i was just curious about what these guys actually do and the kinds of weights they lift?
Has anyone any ideas?
Also i think it was the tour of britain where they said that in winter Greipel does a lot of upper body work in the gym.
Allan Peiper in his book says that Robbie Mccewen does a lot of weight training in the gym.
Has anyone got any ideas what exercises these guys do?
Ive seen Lance's training video's on youtube and i remember a piece on the tour back in 91 that showed lemonds home gym and he talked about doing heavy squats and leg presses.
I've worked as a personal trainer at David Lloyd and many other gyms so i know what i would do but i was just curious about what these guys actually do and the kinds of weights they lift?
Has anyone any ideas?
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Comments
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They're not the only ones. Heaps of pros do gym work with weights, although not necessarily to bulk up like Greipel.-- Dirk Hofman Motorhomes --0
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They do star jumps, and have those handles with springs in them that you push together. Sometimes, they use a multi gym.
Buy one, and you could be a pro in no time.
(being serious, have you seen the skeletal upper bodies of most pros? Upper body muscle is about power, which is sprint specific, and TT beneficial. Upper body weights is relative in this context, and just a way to tone muscle and build core strength. Racing drivers do loads of weights, but are tiny, it is just about resisting gravity and getting the best out of what little there is. I wouldn't worry much unless you are after small, incremental gain ).0 -
phil s wrote:They're not the only ones. Heaps of pros do gym work with weights, although not necessarily to bulk up like Greipel.
Ca you give an idea of what exercises?0 -
most athletes do gym work.
it increases muscle strength, and stamina.
The secret is not overdoing it for your sport. In cycling, they will be doing the core upper body muscles, with low weights and high reps. Result - stretched and small muscles with staying power.
e.g. bech press, bent over raises, curls, and french press. Nothing different to gym freaks, just lighter weights and loads more reps. There aint no secrets to be had here.0 -
Scrumple wrote:most athletes do gym work.
it increases muscle strength, and stamina.
The secret is not overdoing it for your sport. In cycling, they will be doing the core upper body muscles, with low weights and high reps. Result - stretched and small muscles with staying power.
e.g. bech press, bent over raises, curls, and french press. Nothing different to gym freaks, just lighter weights and loads more reps. There aint no secrets to be had here.
Really... Re read the first line of the OP...warrior4life wrote:In the new mens fitness it states that Fab deadlifts 200kg even though he only weighs 80kg
200kgs is a reasonable deadlift at 80kg body weight.
Deadlifts are mass builders... Not the sort of exercise you'd do with light weights and lots of reps.Start with a budget, finish with a mortgage!0 -
I know plenty of people who train for strength not size, strength is easy to get size isnt... Go in any gym and you'll see plenty of skinny guys throwing around huge weights.
The size comes from what you eat, the strength comes from what you lift.
I know lots of other cyclists train with weights but these three are more obvious than others.
80kg with the bodyfat levels of greipel and Cancellara is pretty good, especially with all the cardio they do, thats quite heavy with bodyfat as low as theirs.
Most guys that lean weigh less are or are into bodybuilding.
I was just wondering if anyone had any ideas on their specific routines, Im sure im not the only one who's interested
I dont think any of them train for bulk, just power.0 -
Most athletes weight train over the winter to build strength, in particular core strength. This is mantained during the season by racing and strength exercises on the bike such as hill reps.
I've just started a weight training programme specific to duathlon. The first 8 weeks consists of low weight high reps (20-30), then a "transition phase" for 3 weeks, where I will increase the weight and decrease the reps(12-15), before focusing on strength(6-8reps). The first 8 weeks is intended for the muscles to adapt to weight training and focus on technique. Bad form=no results.
Basically, I'll do 7 exercises in the gym, focusing on big core moves (squat, bench press and overhead squat), isolation moves on the legs to work on any imblanances, and a couple of back exercises.
Unlike the pros, us mere mortals don't race to the frequency or intensity they do, so 1 session a week in the summer is enough to mantain the strength built over the winter.
Weight training is vastly under rated in endurance sports in my opinion and as others have mentioned above, you won't put on much weight, that takes months of hard work in the gym. Besides, if you do, what is an extra kilo to us mere mortals if it means increased strength?0 -
Dead lifts are not so much an upper body exercise....
Read my posts! I was only talking about the top half!0 -
That was a pretty useless piece of info by Mens Fitness, I'd be much more interested in what Cancellara can squat...0
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The deadlift will be used to keep the lower back strong and straight while the legs pump their magic. If you look at Sparticus's back on a TT its very straight which is both good for aero and as a platform (so to speak) for the legs.
Look at how strong his lower back is in this article.
http://www.cyclingforums.com/forum/thread/467666/fabian-cancellara-a-study-in-strength-and-flexibilityCAAD9
Kona Jake the Snake
Merlin Malt 40 -
Interesting, but in a nutshell it tells us what we already knew, that Fabian his incredible core strength and flexibility. For his size it amazes me how he can get into such an "areo-tuck" position. He is one in a generation though, for us mere mortals, I think the squat is a better move than the deadlift, because it focuses on legs, glutes and core, whilst still strengtheing the lower back (but not to the same degree as a deadlift).
I've read a lot of articles in recent weeks regarding strength training in endurance athletes, and it amazes me how some won't even consider it. More so in runners than cyclists, but the principal remains the same.0 -
I always found deadlifts to be as good as squats for building cycling specific strength, the postion your body is in when doing a deadlift is a lot more cycling like than when doing a squat... Both great exercises though.
The Bad Form = no results theory is just not true, Bad form = postural distortion and can lead to injury is a little more true.
Go into any gym and you'll see some truly shocking technique from some guys in phenomal shape, you'll also see perfect technique from guys who dont look like they even work out.
Yes good technique is always best but its amazing what will get results, If you bring intensity and focus and manage to push yourself properly and overload your muscles you will get results.
I've seen ex olympic athletes and top level sprinters and swimmers have some truly abysmal technique.
I personal trained a Girl who became the national champion in bmx a few years ago and all i got her doing weights wise was squats, deadlifts and lunges. (she had good technique)0 -
warrior4life wrote:The Bad Form = no results theory is just not true, Bad form = postural distortion and can lead to injury is a little more true.
Go into any gym and you'll see some truly shocking technique from some guys in phenomal shape, you'll also see perfect technique from guys who dont look like they even work out.
Yes good technique is always best but its amazing what will get results, If you bring intensity and focus and manage to push yourself properly and overload your muscles you will get results
Ok, fair point, there are some big blokes in my local gym who's form is shocking, especially on the core exercises. But it's more than just bad form in their moves giving said guys big results... On the flip side, there are guys in excellent shape who have spent years perfecting their technique and are now reaping the rewards. If an untrained person went in the gym and wasn't taught the appropriate technique, they won't see positive results no matter how hard they try. That is something I see a lot of in the gym.
ps Sorry to go slightly off topic to the OP, but warrior4life- I've never deadlifted, but can squat a reasonable weight for my size. Just out of interest, how would I implement a deadlift into a programme where I am already squatting twice a week? I don't think it's safe to deadlift and squat in the same session? In a session I bench press and squat, so no way could I manage a good deadlift too. The only reason I chose to squat and not deadlift, is because I think the squat is more beneficial (imo). I got the basics of my weights programme in a Joe Friel book, which I plan to follow over this winter.0 -
A good deadlift really strengthens the back & core. In my opinion there's no point in squatting (for thighs) if you don't strengthen the next link in the chain with deadifts. Another good bike exercise is barbell rowing leaning forward - places a controlled static load on lower back - just like cycling.
With regard to what Fabian does - i've no idea but I do know that Swede Emma J (Olympic silver RR winner) does winter training of MTBing and very heavy leg and back work - 3- 6 reps at most. She told me it was the one single thing that has brought her on as a cyclist. And she is not big & muscly believe me!0 -
OK, I am never one to flame but there has not been one remotely sensible post on this thread yet.
It is very clear that nobody who has replied has even the most basic understanding of physiology or how to train properly.
Time and time again there is sensible information posted of this topic and time and time again it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been fed up replying to this and it is the last post I will make.
It had to be said, I'm sorry...
... On the plus side myself and I'm sure some others who know a thing or two get a great mornings entertainment reading threads like this on forums like these, it gives me my kicks at least so its not all bad.
Kind regards
Murr X0 -
Murr X wrote:OK, I am never one to flame but there has not been one remotely sensible post on this thread yet.
It is very clear that nobody who has replied has even the most basic understanding of physiology or how to train properly.
Time and time again there is sensible information posted of this topic and time and time again it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been fed up replying to this and it is the last post I will make.
It had to be said, I'm sorry...
... On the plus side myself and I'm sure some others who know a thing or two get a great mornings entertainment reading threads like this on forums like these, it gives me my kicks at least so its not all bad.
Kind regards
Murr X
Eh? If you know so much then please share it with us. Non? There seems to be alot of conflicting advice out there from well established coashes so I think there will always be debate over this. Why don't you drop the elitism and share some of your precious knowledge on this matter with us mere mortals?
Or just sit there laughing at us.0 -
Once_In_A_Blue_Moon wrote:warrior4life wrote:The Bad Form = no results theory is just not true, Bad form = postural distortion and can lead to injury is a little more true.
Go into any gym and you'll see some truly shocking technique from some guys in phenomal shape, you'll also see perfect technique from guys who dont look like they even work out.
Yes good technique is always best but its amazing what will get results, If you bring intensity and focus and manage to push yourself properly and overload your muscles you will get results
Ok, fair point, there are some big blokes in my local gym who's form is shocking, especially on the core exercises. But it's more than just bad form in their moves giving said guys big results... On the flip side, there are guys in excellent shape who have spent years perfecting their technique and are now reaping the rewards. If an untrained person went in the gym and wasn't taught the appropriate technique, they won't see positive results no matter how hard they try. That is something I see a lot of in the gym.
ps Sorry to go slightly off topic to the OP, but warrior4life- I've never deadlifted, but can squat a reasonable weight for my size. Just out of interest, how would I implement a deadlift into a programme where I am already squatting twice a week? I don't think it's safe to deadlift and squat in the same session? In a session I bench press and squat, so no way could I manage a good deadlift too. The only reason I chose to squat and not deadlift, is because I think the squat is more beneficial (imo). I got the basics of my weights programme in a Joe Friel book, which I plan to follow over this winter.
Personally i would squat and deadlift in the same session and make that the meat and potatoes of my leg workout then give at least 2 full days before doing any lower body weights again.
Squats and deadlifts twice a week is easily enough to build strength.
Its so difficult giving advice on training as there are so many different theories and you can find evidence to back anything up.
Just be open minded, try as many different training styles and philosophies as you can, results come from hard work and a sound diet with plenty of rest.
Joe Friel's book is serious stuff, it takes dedication to follow his plans, respect to you for doing it.0 -
Will.C wrote:Murr X wrote:OK, I am never one to flame but there has not been one remotely sensible post on this thread yet.
It is very clear that nobody who has replied has even the most basic understanding of physiology or how to train properly.
Time and time again there is sensible information posted of this topic and time and time again it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been fed up replying to this and it is the last post I will make.
It had to be said, I'm sorry...
... On the plus side myself and I'm sure some others who know a thing or two get a great mornings entertainment reading threads like this on forums like these, it gives me my kicks at least so its not all bad.
Kind regards
Murr X
Eh? If you know so much then please share it with us. Non? There seems to be alot of conflicting advice out there from well established coashes so I think there will always be debate over this. Why don't you drop the elitism and share some of your precious knowledge on this matter with us mere mortals?
Or just sit there laughing at us.
Search
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Murr X wrote:OK, I am never one to flame but there has not been one remotely sensible post on this thread yet.
It is very clear that nobody who has replied has even the most basic understanding of physiology or how to train properly.
Time and time again there is sensible information posted of this topic and time and time again it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been fed up replying to this and it is the last post I will make.
It had to be said, I'm sorry...
... On the plus side myself and I'm sure some others who know a thing or two get a great mornings entertainment reading threads like this on forums like these, it gives me my kicks at least so its not all bad.
Kind regards
Murr X
Can you share some of what you know with us? Give us a little on your back ground in fitness training, coaching etc?
If you really have some good stuff i'd love to hear it, I enjoy learning new things.0 -
Murr X
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 188
Posted Sat Oct 2, 2010 1:25 pm
bristolpete wrote:
He can sprint like Cav too. Serious power when required. Top man to ride with and a great, great friend. His knowledge of fuel and energy is mind blowing.
I could believe it. Most amateur bodybuilders especially those which compete or have competed will usually have a much greater knowledge in nutrition and of the human body than all but a handful of cyclists will.
Murr X
I was an amateur bodybuilder and i'm around guys who compete often, I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of diet and fuelling isn't the best but its still pretty damn good. My knowledge of actual exercises and different training styles is about as sound as anyone i know.
Mr Murr X (if that is your real name) I think you need to be a little less closed minded, sports science is just the best guess and is constantly evolving, there isnt one right way there are many.
As the OP i only asked the original question as i was interested in learning about the pro's actual weight routines as there isnt that much info out there.0 -
doyler78 wrote:Will.C wrote:Murr X wrote:OK, I am never one to flame but there has not been one remotely sensible post on this thread yet.
It is very clear that nobody who has replied has even the most basic understanding of physiology or how to train properly.
Time and time again there is sensible information posted of this topic and time and time again it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been fed up replying to this and it is the last post I will make.
It had to be said, I'm sorry...
... On the plus side myself and I'm sure some others who know a thing or two get a great mornings entertainment reading threads like this on forums like these, it gives me my kicks at least so its not all bad.
Kind regards
Murr X
Eh? If you know so much then please share it with us. Non? There seems to be alot of conflicting advice out there from well established coashes so I think there will always be debate over this. Why don't you drop the elitism and share some of your precious knowledge on this matter with us mere mortals?
Or just sit there laughing at us.
Search
I wasn't that bothered in the first place, I squat and leg press, along with leg extensions, core work and deadlifts but not super heavy. It just seems odd to waste time writign what he wrote when he could have just shared some of his wisdom.0 -
Will.C wrote:doyler78 wrote:Will.C wrote:Murr X wrote:OK, I am never one to flame but there has not been one remotely sensible post on this thread yet.
It is very clear that nobody who has replied has even the most basic understanding of physiology or how to train properly.
Time and time again there is sensible information posted of this topic and time and time again it seems to fall on deaf ears. I have been fed up replying to this and it is the last post I will make.
It had to be said, I'm sorry...
... On the plus side myself and I'm sure some others who know a thing or two get a great mornings entertainment reading threads like this on forums like these, it gives me my kicks at least so its not all bad.
Kind regards
Murr X
Eh? If you know so much then please share it with us. Non? There seems to be alot of conflicting advice out there from well established coashes so I think there will always be debate over this. Why don't you drop the elitism and share some of your precious knowledge on this matter with us mere mortals?
Or just sit there laughing at us.
Search
I wasn't that bothered in the first place, I squat and leg press, along with leg extensions, core work and deadlifts but not super heavy. It just seems odd to waste time writign what he wrote when he could have just shared some of his wisdom.
I agree.
Murr x seems like a pompous old man.... Saying people have no knowledge because of a few comments on a forum.0 -
I think what MurrX is trying to say is:
- this topic has been done to death
- he is somewhat jaded by the regularity of a topic posted by those too lazy to hit the search button
- the opinion of those posting about the positive impact of strength training for endurance cycling performance in trained cyclists is misplaced on the grounds of basic exercise physiology and unsupported by the body of evidence.
Endurance cycling is an aerobic sport and the limiter is our aerobic metabolism, not strength (i.e. maximal force generation capacity of a muscle/group of muscles).
So by all means chat about strength training, or other forms of gym/weight training and the benefits of that. I am not against people doing such training. But just don't expect it will help you ride faster/further (unless you are untrained, when just about any exercise will help).
But if one starts to make claims about its efficacy for enhancing sustainable aerobic power on a bike (which is what endurance cycling performance is all about), then please either demonstrate:
- a sound physiological basis for such a claim (you won't find one), and/or
- a body of evidence in support of such a claim (you won't find it, because the body of evidence demonstrates it doesn't have much positive impact).
Otherwise, it's just mostly uninformed opinion.0 -
Alex, on the topic of weight training, could you help me with a query please? I posted this on the testers' forum but no-one seems to want to help
I'm doing a bit of weight training at the moment and when doing single-leg presses my left leg has a clear weakness compared to my right. This weakness is coming solely from the area at the top of my left hamstring/base of the left glut, but on a basic feel there doesn't seem to be any less muscle mass there compared to my right (not that I would probably feel it if there was!).
I have an ongoing lower back problem, and my left hamstring is naturally much tighter than my right so I'm wondering if it could be due to either of these and what I should do/who I should see to sort it out? I'm thinking it could be a neuro problem rather than inherent weakness? Is it something that I can train out by carrying on with the individual leg weights? Or concentrate more stretching on my left hamstring?* Or should I see an osteopath to have a look at my back? Any thoughts appreciated.
p.s. I use mainly weights for this kind of thing - to sort out any imbalance and hopefully help to prevent injuries.0 -
Is the back problem affecting you on the bike?Hibbs wrote:Alex, on the topic of weight training, could you help me with a query please? I posted this on the testers' forum but no-one seems to want to help
I'm doing a bit of weight training at the moment and when doing single-leg presses my left leg has a clear weakness compared to my right. This weakness is coming solely from the area at the top of my left hamstring/base of the left glut, but on a basic feel there doesn't seem to be any less muscle mass there compared to my right (not that I would probably feel it if there was!).
I have an ongoing lower back problem, and my left hamstring is naturally much tighter than my right so I'm wondering if it could be due to either of these and what I should do/who I should see to sort it out? I'm thinking it could be a neuro problem rather than inherent weakness? Is it something that I can train out by carrying on with the individual leg weights? Or concentrate more stretching on my left hamstring?* Or should I see an osteopath to have a look at my back? Any thoughts appreciated.
p.s. I use mainly weights for this kind of thing - to sort out any imbalance and hopefully help to prevent injuries.
Is your bike position (especially saddle height / fore-aft and cleat placement) perhaps something else to consider? I usually make sure that's sorted before going down the path of all sorts of specialists.
The off bike work won't hurt to help address it, but sometimes it comes from an on-bike set up that's not right. But you may have inherit problems or injuries that might need some work.
As for imbalances, as you know I'm a lower leg amputee, so that's a biggie to start with. But also my upper legs are also significantly different in strength and form - left mid thigh is 10cm (4") less circumference than the right (and I am weaker strength wise than I've ever been in my adult life but my TT power output is as good as it was pre-amputation).
Even so, I don't get much in the way of back problems now days, only a little soreness on longer rides if I've had a lay off for a while and am starting back on the bike, or when I up the ante significantly with long hard rides. Never enough to slow me down though. Usually it adapts to the stress of the extra load (just like all our muscles do) after 1-2 weeks and I never notice it anymore.
I did have bad back strains/spasms in the early days after starting with prosthetic when my walking leg became a poor fit and I was effectively 1/2" longer on one side for a while. That wasn't fun.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is the back problem affecting you on the bike?
Is your bike position (especially saddle height / fore-aft and cleat placement) perhaps something else to consider? I usually make sure that's sorted before going down the path of all sorts of specialists.
The off bike work won't hurt to help address it, but sometimes it comes from an on-bike set up that's not right. But you may have inherit problems or injuries that might need some work.
As for imbalances, as you know I'm a lower leg amputee, so that's a biggie to start with. But also my upper legs are also significantly different in strength and form - left mid thigh is 10cm (4") less circumference than the right (and I am weaker strength wise than I've ever been in my adult life but my TT power output is as good as it was pre-amputation).
Even so, I don't get much in the way of back problems now days, only a little soreness on longer rides if I've had a lay off for a while and am starting back on the bike, or when I up the ante significantly with long hard rides. Never enough to slow me down though. Usually it adapts to the stress of the extra load (just like all our muscles do) after 1-2 weeks and I never notice it anymore.
I did have bad back strains/spasms in the early days after starting with prosthetic when my walking leg became a poor fit and I was effectively 1/2" longer on one side for a while. That wasn't fun.
Thanks for the reply Alex. I had a professional bike fit carried out last March so I don't think there should be any positional problems, although I'm not convinced my left ankle pronation can't be helped further so I'm thinking of getting a second fitting carried out elsewhere. I don't notice any problems on the bike with regards to my back though, and I was surprised to find such a difference between legs. I think I'll see if it improves by training it out, and if not go and see an osteopath who knows cycling.0 -
warrior4life wrote:Murr X
Joined: 16 Dec 2008
Posts: 188
Posted Sat Oct 2, 2010 1:25 pm
bristolpete wrote:
He can sprint like Cav too. Serious power when required. Top man to ride with and a great, great friend. His knowledge of fuel and energy is mind blowing.
I could believe it. Most amateur bodybuilders especially those which compete or have competed will usually have a much greater knowledge in nutrition and of the human body than all but a handful of cyclists will.
Murr X
I was an amateur bodybuilder and i'm around guys who compete often, I'll be the first to admit that my knowledge of diet and fuelling isn't the best but its still pretty damn good. My knowledge of actual exercises and different training styles is about as sound as anyone i know.
Mr Murr X (if that is your real name) I think you need to be a little less closed minded, sports science is just the best guess and is constantly evolving, there isnt one right way there are many.
As the OP i only asked the original question as i was interested in learning about the pro's actual weight routines as there isnt that much info out there.
As far as i am concerned i wouldn't think they do specific programs, they may say they go to the gym, but i doubt if they do much at all in comparison to say even an endurance runner let alone an athlete who needs strength or power. And if they have a good coach they won't do anything other than lower back, trunk work etc.
Regarding body-building it is a pretty useless form of training for sports as you probably know, speed of movement, training to failure etc.0 -
Hibbs wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:Is the back problem affecting you on the bike?
Is your bike position (especially saddle height / fore-aft and cleat placement) perhaps something else to consider? I usually make sure that's sorted before going down the path of all sorts of specialists.
The off bike work won't hurt to help address it, but sometimes it comes from an on-bike set up that's not right. But you may have inherit problems or injuries that might need some work.
As for imbalances, as you know I'm a lower leg amputee, so that's a biggie to start with. But also my upper legs are also significantly different in strength and form - left mid thigh is 10cm (4") less circumference than the right (and I am weaker strength wise than I've ever been in my adult life but my TT power output is as good as it was pre-amputation).
Even so, I don't get much in the way of back problems now days, only a little soreness on longer rides if I've had a lay off for a while and am starting back on the bike, or when I up the ante significantly with long hard rides. Never enough to slow me down though. Usually it adapts to the stress of the extra load (just like all our muscles do) after 1-2 weeks and I never notice it anymore.
I did have bad back strains/spasms in the early days after starting with prosthetic when my walking leg became a poor fit and I was effectively 1/2" longer on one side for a while. That wasn't fun.
Thanks for the reply Alex. I had a professional bike fit carried out last March so I don't think there should be any positional problems, although I'm not convinced my left ankle pronation can't be helped further so I'm thinking of getting a second fitting carried out elsewhere. I don't notice any problems on the bike with regards to my back though, and I was surprised to find such a difference between legs. I think I'll see if it improves by training it out, and if not go and see an osteopath who knows cycling.
Why can't you use the original bike fitter? Bike fitting is an iterative process bourne out of the fact that there are no absolutes only guidelines and as such rider feedback is essential to achieve a good fit. If your bike fitter doesn't offer that ability as part of the service I certainly would not call it a professional bike fitting irrespective of the cost. So I would say go back to your original fitter and see what they say. If they don't offer to help then certainly go somewhere that will offer you the backup to ensure that your position will be right for you.0 -
http://www.nsca-lift.org/podcast/default.shtml
The 3rd podcast down may interest some people. Its on strength training for endurance athletes0
