Campag finally get on the Electronic bandwagon.

ride_whenever

I see this in the future...

Pokerface

Crown Jewel wrote:

I know this has been debated many times before, and I don't mean to start a fight, but when Campagnolo abbreviates its name as "Campy", why not defer to them? Mad4Campy, Campy Lab Tech, etc. http://www.campagnolo.com/jsp/en/index/index.jsp

Just curious.

Maybe because in the UK - to be 'camp' is to be gay. So calling it 'Campy' is to say it is a little gay.


Oh wait a second.... maybe we SHOULD refer to it as that! 8)

LangerDan

There is a fairly good thread over on the Weightweenies forum on this at the mo'. It looks like the price is approx €2700, which is a premium of ~ €1000 on the manual Super Record groupset. The differential over Di2 is a little less than that between the mechanical groupsets.

I think Campag aren't quite there yet, which is why they are only issuing to one squad at the moment and the levers are branded "Campy Lab Tech" which is like that naff military-style "Protoype" stencil that turns up on the Shimano Pro gear.

Some of the component look different to the ones seen in the past - in particular the rear mech, which looks to have changed significantly. Its almost as if someone in Vicenza bought a Di2 rear mech, thought "Oh thats how to make it work" and amended the previous design.

Seatpost batteries are unlikely to be high on the agenda at the moment as they are a PITA for pro teams - far easier to unclip a spent battery and chuck in a fresh one.

simonaspinall

Is it another step forward to removing a maintenance and componentry issue from the customer I.e. Infantalisation of the customer.

If you need things looking at then you have to take it to an official dealer rather than doing a basic reset yourself when indexing your gears. Surely the money saved in more efficient allignment of the gears and the saved 'wear' doesn't justify the extra cost?

It smells of what has happened to modern cars - you need a laptop and diagnostic software to service a car whereas years ago you could just tweak it - with even dedicated programmes on TV showing you how to do basic maintenance (wheelbase on the bbc, I believe)

Is there really that much of an advantage? Plus you need to recharge yeat another gadget...i already have a rechargeable mp3 player, phone, batteries for my lights, a rechargeable front light, an electric toothbrush...I don't want to have another thing to stick a charger on!

fossyant

Italian's and electronics.................. :?

Smokin Joe

fossyant wrote:

Italian's and electronics.................. :?

You're out of date.

I regularly drive Fiats, they're no more trouble than anything else. Now if you're talking French...

fossyant

Had an Alfa 147 Selespeed a few years back......... everything is Bosch, but the brain bit would go nuts...... needed the good old 'reboot' to clear some errors (switch off and on).....

Smokin Joe

fossyant wrote:

Had an Alfa 147 Selespeed a few years back......... everything is Bosch, but the brain bit would go nuts...... needed the good old 'reboot' to clear some errors (switch off and on).....

I think Alfas are a nutjob all on their own. A neighbour had a 147 where the electric filler flap kept opening and shutting while the car was on his drive with the ignition off.

Pross

fossyant wrote:

Italian's and electronics.................. :?

Yeah, that Marconi blooke was clueless!

Wheelspinner

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I just don't understand the fuss over electronic shifting. Other than as another way to prize a grand or more from us.

Another +1.

There's lots of things in this world where battery-powered assistance is of some benefit.

Bicycle gear shifting isn't one of them.

gumball3000

I've been using Di2 for a year now. I admit that the cost is totally mental, but I would never go back to standard cables on my best bike. (That said, I cant now, I have a Di2 specific frame!) It has been far more reliable than cable 7900. I have only ever reset the gearing once, (a 20 second job), and I ran the battery for 5 months before recharging it the first time. (It still showed fully charged, but I was going to the Etape so I wouldn't risk it). The price will come down, but dont knock it till you have tried it! It is absolutely superb.

Monty Dog

^I think this was a deliberate marketing ploy by Shimano - make 7900 worse than 7800 and force people to upgrade to Di2

Wheelspinner

gumball3000 wrote:

I've been using Di2 for a year now. I admit that the cost is totally mental, but I would never go back to standard cables on my best bike. (That said, I cant now, I have a Di2 specific frame!) It has been far more reliable than cable 7900. I have only ever reset the gearing once, (a 20 second job), and I ran the battery for 5 months before recharging it the first time. (It still showed fully charged, but I was going to the Etape so I wouldn't risk it). The price will come down, but dont knock it till you have tried it! It is absolutely superb.

When you say "more reliable", what does that mean? I have one bike with DA 7800, one with Campag Record 10sp and one with 11sp Super Record. In total, I've done maybe 7000 km in the last year or so on them all. I think the chain has dropped once on the front, and I've tweaked the barrel adjuster on the 11 speed when I swapped wheels.

Other than that, they have all worked flawlessly. No missed shifts, no jumped chains, no hassle, and no batteries required.

I've no doubt Di2 is excellent in every way. I just think it's pointless on a road bike. Maybe on a TT bike I get the concept, with a second set of shift buttons, but for road?

If your 7900 set up was "unreliable", find another mechanic.

Smokin Joe

I've been at this a long time now. Friction went to index, pedals went to clipless, shifters moved to the brakehoods, steel gave way to aluminium and then carbon, wheels were built with half the number of spokes.

Without exception, every single one of those was denounced as being unnecessary, too expensive and potentialy unreliable when they were first introduced. Now few would buy a bike without all of those innovations. Technology makes things easier bit by bit and economies of scale brings all the new kit down to an affordable level fairly quickly. Provided electronic shifting proves itself in the real world it will be de-rigour on race bikes within a few years and commonplace on other bikes.

simonaspinall

Smokin Joe wrote:

I've been at this a long time now. Friction went to index, pedals went to clipless, shifters moved to the brakehoods, steel gave way to aluminium and then carbon, wheels were built with half the number of spokes.

Without exception, every single one of those was denounced as being unnecessary, too expensive and potentialy unreliable when they were first introduced. Now few would buy a bike without all of those innovations. Technology makes things easier bit by bit and economies of scale brings all the new kit down to an affordable level fairly quickly. Provided electronic shifting proves itself in the real world it will be de-rigour on race bikes within a few years and commonplace on other bikes.

There is a difference though - All those innovations meant very little in the way of maintenance and home mechanics. The home mechanic can still fix a lot of these bits providing they can get parts. It's quite a jump to go from basic mechanic principles to dealing with electrics. If all bikes eventually go to electronic shifting then it would be the manufacturers imposing guaranteed maintenance charges on people and servicing, like on cars unless the individual components and electrical boards etc can be interchanged by the cyclist.

My hack still has downtube shifters and my nice bike has 105 sti - They are largely the same mechnical principle involved, just packaged and moved on the bike...I couldn't fix either model if the ratchet mech went but I can do other basic maintenance and work out what went wrong.

I think I would go with e-shifting, providing it was only at a standard groupset cost as the replacements are abhorrently expensive, otherwise, I can't see what the jump would be for the cost - DA or Super Record are both cheaper and are surely sublime to use? (Owning 105 I can only dream... :oops: )

Smokin Joe

simonaspinall wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

I've been at this a long time now. Friction went to index, pedals went to clipless, shifters moved to the brakehoods, steel gave way to aluminium and then carbon, wheels were built with half the number of spokes.

Without exception, every single one of those was denounced as being unnecessary, too expensive and potentialy unreliable when they were first introduced. Now few would buy a bike without all of those innovations. Technology makes things easier bit by bit and economies of scale brings all the new kit down to an affordable level fairly quickly. Provided electronic shifting proves itself in the real world it will be de-rigour on race bikes within a few years and commonplace on other bikes.

There is a difference though - All those innovations meant very little in the way of maintenance and home mechanics. The home mechanic can still fix a lot of these bits providing they can get parts. It's quite a jump to go from basic mechanic principles to dealing with electrics. If all bikes eventually go to electronic shifting then it would be the manufacturers imposing guaranteed maintenance charges on people and servicing, like on cars unless the individual components and electrical boards etc can be interchanged by the cyclist.

)

1/ Very few of us still do home mechanics, ask any LBS how many cables they sell compared to those they have to replace.

2/ Of those who still do, only a minority will actually repair a mech or a shifter. Most will replace (you have to with Shimano anyway as you can't get the parts).

3/ For those who will want to do their own repairs on electronic items, a switch that operates an electric motor (which is all it basically can be) isn't exactly rocket science for someone who isn't afraid of the spanners.

The success of electronic gearshifts in the marketplace will come down to reliability and price. If it works and the initial high prices drop to a level around current mechanical gears it will succeed, if the cost stays high it will just be a niche market and if it doesn't work it will bomb.

We'll have to wait and see, but one thing is for certain, it ain't going to be uninvented

simonaspinall

Smokin Joe wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

Smokin Joe wrote:

I've been at this a long time now. Friction went to index, pedals went to clipless, shifters moved to the brakehoods, steel gave way to aluminium and then carbon, wheels were built with half the number of spokes.

Without exception, every single one of those was denounced as being unnecessary, too expensive and potentialy unreliable when they were first introduced. Now few would buy a bike without all of those innovations. Technology makes things easier bit by bit and economies of scale brings all the new kit down to an affordable level fairly quickly. Provided electronic shifting proves itself in the real world it will be de-rigour on race bikes within a few years and commonplace on other bikes.

There is a difference though - All those innovations meant very little in the way of maintenance and home mechanics. The home mechanic can still fix a lot of these bits providing they can get parts. It's quite a jump to go from basic mechanic principles to dealing with electrics. If all bikes eventually go to electronic shifting then it would be the manufacturers imposing guaranteed maintenance charges on people and servicing, like on cars unless the individual components and electrical boards etc can be interchanged by the cyclist.

)

1/ Very few of us still do home mechanics, ask any LBS how many cables they sell compared to those they have to replace.

2/ Of those who still do, only a minority will actually repair a mech or a shifter. Most will replace (you have to with Shimano anyway as you can't get the parts).

3/ For those who will want to do their own repairs on electronic items, a switch that operates an electric motor (which is all it basically can be) isn't exactly rocket science for someone who isn't afraid of the spanners.

The success of electronic gearshifts in the marketplace will come down to reliability and price. If it works and the initial high prices drop to a level around current mechanical gears it will succeed, if the cost stays high it will just be a niche market and if it doesn't work it will bomb.

We'll have to wait and see, but one thing is for certain, it ain't going to be uninvented

True - The next step is to have some sort of altenator fitted so there is no need to charge the battery which ways next to nothing and isn't cumbersome or add to rolling resistance. Oh, and I want an ice cream too.

gumball3000

Wheelspinner wrote:

[
If your 7900 set up was "unreliable", find another mechanic.

Fair point! Unreliable was the wrong choice of word really. I usually have to tweek the cable tension on my 105 or 7900 once or twice a month. Hardly the end of the world, but irritating, non the less. The Di2 has only needed adjusting once in a year. Hardly worth a parade, or the cost, but it did impress me. Ultegra Di2 is coming for 2013. It will be cheaper and has to be worth a look. My training bike will be getting a set!

JohnnyAllez

If the Campy electrics are anything like the usual Italian car industry stuff I`d stick with good old Bowden cables

Cressers

Let's see how it stands up to our wonderful english weather...

And i too agree that it marks yet another step towards the 'infantisation' of the rider.

Smokin Joe

Cressers wrote:

Let's see how it stands up to our wonderful english weather...

And i too agree that it marks yet another step towards the 'infantisation' of the rider.

I once rode 300 miles in torrential rain on a motorcycle, including the length of the M4 where the spark plugs were being sprayed from the front wheel, the ignition system was protected by no more than a couple of seals and the lights, instruments and other electrical gubbins were fully exposed to the weather. The bike never missed a beat, and it started straight away after I got home and washed it with a high pressure hose.

What's so special about an electric motor and a couple of switches on a bicycle that it would fall to bits when it saw moisture? And how would pushing a switch to change gear infantise the rider anymore than moving a lever? It's just a quicker way of doing the same job.

Cressers

The difference being that if motorcyclists and drivers suffered the same rate of attrition that is common in cycling components the roads would be empty. What is the difference between the 'analogue' cable and 'digital' electronic systems? That the mechanical system will be more reliable.

As someone who grew up on and did perfectly well on friction gear changers, I have seen how gear changing in the indexed age has become a lost art. I wonder how long it will be before I pass a rider by the side of the road, looking aghast that moisture has got into the electronics or finding that EMF generated from electricity pylons has caused his shifters to malfunction, and that there is no '0n the fly' fix to it.

as the African proverb goes "Progress does not always go in a forward direction"

Pokerface

simonaspinall wrote:

There is a difference though - All those innovations meant very little in the way of maintenance and home mechanics. The home mechanic can still fix a lot of these bits providing they can get parts. It's quite a jump to go from basic mechanic principles to dealing with electrics.

I have to agree with Joe - even though I do virtually all my own mechanicing at home - there is only so much you can do with certain components. Usually if something like a shifter breaks - you have to replace it.

I have the parts manual for Sram - and it breaks down EVERY single screw and piece in every single component - and gives a part number for each one - so in theory I can order and replace anything - but it's not always that simple.

Ask any mechanic at a bike shop - and I bet they will tell you that the majority of work they do (not including new builds) is new cables, adjusting gears, truing wheels or replacing parts. Di2 isn't really affected by any of this.

simonaspinall

Pokerface wrote:

simonaspinall wrote:

There is a difference though - All those innovations meant very little in the way of maintenance and home mechanics. The home mechanic can still fix a lot of these bits providing they can get parts. It's quite a jump to go from basic mechanic principles to dealing with electrics.

I have to agree with Joe - even though I do virtually all my own mechanicing at home - there is only so much you can do with certain components. Usually if something like a shifter breaks - you have to replace it.

I have the parts manual for Sram - and it breaks down EVERY single screw and piece in every single component - and gives a part number for each one - so in theory I can order and replace anything - but it's not always that simple.

Ask any mechanic at a bike shop - and I bet they will tell you that the majority of work they do (not including new builds) is new cables, adjusting gears, truing wheels or replacing parts. Di2 isn't really affected by any of this.

Downtube shifters - under 50 quid for a pair of Shim DA - It's the future 8)

JohnnyAllez

quote " I once rode 300 miles in torrential rain on a motorcycle, including the length of the M4 where the spark plugs were being sprayed from the front wheel, the ignition system was protected by no more than a couple of seals and the lights, instruments and other electrical gubbins were fully exposed to the weather. The bike never missed a beat"

Was it a Japanese motorcycle by any chance ??