Random Question...

Headhuunter

Not sure if anyone will have experience of this but I'll ask anyway. Since last year my fellow flat owners and I (4 flats in our building) have taken management control off the overpriced and lazy management company which was appointed by the original developer in 1997. This means that we are responsible for sorting out maintanence of the buidling etc ourselves and I've just realised out buildings insurance is up for renewal.

Because our building is a block of flats we can't just stick a call into Direct Line or Money Supermarket for a deal, I think there are only a limited number of firms that will insure a building of flats. Is this true? Does anyone know which firms offer insurance for flats? Where can I get the best deal?

W1

You should have had a set of accounts when you took over - who was it insured with most recently/currently?

Also it's not that unusual - I would think google would still be your friend for this sort of thing.

PBo

I was in a similar situation many years ago.....inertia took hold and we just renewed....

however, as management companies pass all costs on to tenants, they have no incentive to shop around, so no knowing how good a deal it is.

Other than a bit of googling, try asking your council who the use, as they will have insurance for their housing stock, and the tendering process probably ensures they get a reasonable deal.

Doesn't Stewie Griffin work in social housing? If his organisation has housing stock, then he might have some suggestions if you PM him.

Headhuunter

Yeah, got the current policy. It's currently insured by a company called Towergate.... Tried Googling a few months ago in preparation and it was hard to find firms that insure blocks. The minute you enter "buildings insurance" or something like that in Google you get the usual suspects popping up for normal household insurance...

cee

Hey.

I own a flat in an edinburgh tenement block.

The owner of each flat are collectively responsible for the maintenance of the building.

Each flat in the block has their own Buildings Insurance.

We used Money supermarket etc to find the best deal. We ended up going with Hastings Direct....

But basically.....I do not think that only certain insurers will consider you...I do not think you need to arrange a group insurance deal.. Every owner should get their own individual insurance. I don't see how it would be any different to my situation.

Headhuunter

Headhuunter wrote:

Yeah, got the current policy. It's currently insured by a company called Towergate.... Tried Googling a few months ago in preparation and it was hard to find firms that insure blocks. The minute you enter "buildings insurance" or something like that in Google you get the usual suspects popping up for normal household insurance...

I have a feeling that the rules in Scotland are different though, you don't have the same freehold/leasehold laws. In England, unless the flat owners collectively buy the freehold, the land on which many flats rest is often owned by a 3rd party which appoints a management company to manage the communal areas, maintain the exterior etc etc. We are still leasehold but under 2002 Right to Manage legislation we have taken control of the building and fired all the overpriced and unnecessary cleaners, gardeners and other hangers on that the management company employed. But it means that we have to sort things like bldgs insurance out for ourselves now....

PBo

cee wrote:

Hey.

I own a flat in an edinburgh tenement block.

The owner of each flat are collectively responsible for the maintenance of the building.

Each flat in the block has their own Buildings Insurance.

We used Money supermarket etc to find the best deal. We ended up going with Hastings Direct....

But basically.....I do not think that only certain insurers will consider you...I do not think you need to arrange a group insurance deal.. Every owner should get their own individual insurance. I don't see how it would be any different to my situation.

I'm not saying this isn't your situation, Cee, but I don't understand how you've been able to do that.

How can one flat on it's own have a rebuild value? How do you ensure each owner has insurance, 'cos if one lapses, or breaches the terms, or something, you are screwed if the entire block gets burnt down and you are 1/10th or whatever short of the rebuild money....

edit: just seen HH's comment about maybe different scottish law - but still seems odd to me.

W1

Headhuunter wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Yeah, got the current policy. It's currently insured by a company called Towergate.... Tried Googling a few months ago in preparation and it was hard to find firms that insure blocks. The minute you enter "buildings insurance" or something like that in Google you get the usual suspects popping up for normal household insurance...

I have a feeling that the rules in Scotland are different though, you don't have the same freehold/leasehold laws. In England, unless the flat owners collectively buy the freehold, the land on which many flats rest is often owned by a 3rd party which appoints a management company to manage the communal areas, maintain the exterior etc etc. We are still leasehold but under 2002 Right to Manage legislation we have taken control of the building and fired all the overpriced and unnecessary cleaners, gardeners and other hangers on that the management company employed. But it means that we have to sort things like bldgs insurance out for ourselves now....

I agree - you need to consider who will pay for the building to be rebuilt in the event of a fire, for example. Who would pay for the roof? Or the communal areas?

The other thing you could do is try and speak to the large insurance companies - Zurich, Axa, RSA, and see whether this is something they cover.

davmaggs

cee wrote:

Hey.

I own a flat in an edinburgh tenement block.

The owner of each flat are collectively responsible for the maintenance of the building.

Each flat in the block has their own Buildings Insurance.

We used Money supermarket etc to find the best deal. We ended up going with Hastings Direct....

But basically.....I do not think that only certain insurers will consider you...I do not think you need to arrange a group insurance deal.. Every owner should get their own individual insurance. I don't see how it would be any different to my situation.

I don't know how Scottish law works, but I don't think that this is correct. There needs to be a policy for the entire building and then individuals take out there own contents insurance for internal possesions and damage.

The obvious reason being that if someone fails to insure then you are all stuffed as you can't rebuild the structure.

cee

Headhuunter wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Yeah, got the current policy. It's currently insured by a company called Towergate.... Tried Googling a few months ago in preparation and it was hard to find firms that insure blocks. The minute you enter "buildings insurance" or something like that in Google you get the usual suspects popping up for normal household insurance...

I have a feeling that the rules in Scotland are different though, you don't have the same freehold/leasehold laws. In England, unless the flat owners collectively buy the freehold, the land on which many flats rest is often owned by a 3rd party which appoints a management company to manage the communal areas, maintain the exterior etc etc. We are still leasehold but under 2002 Right to Manage legislation we have taken control of the building and fired all the overpriced and unnecessary cleaners, gardeners and other hangers on that the management company employed. But it means that we have to sort things like bldgs insurance out for ourselves now....

ah yes...

we have a Feuhold..which is the equivalent of an english freehold....

my own insurance gives a rebuild value...can't remember the details...I can check though and get back to you....

cee

as for communal repairs...

if the relevant parties cannot come to a jointly mutual undertaking to carry out the repairs....

then the council do the work and bill each flat individually for their share....

davmaggs

I meant to add to the OP that you might want to go to an insurance broker for the cover.

I'm in the same situation, but we appointed a management company as collecting all the monies, organising repairs, and writing letters to anti-social types needs central coordination. We have a meeting tonight so I will ask if anyone can remember which firm does the insurance.

davmaggs

cee wrote:

as for communal repairs...

if the relevant parties cannot come to a jointly mutual undertaking to carry out the repairs....

then the council do the work and bill each flat individually for their share....

It sounds like you might own your freehold, but the council is the managing agent otherwise they'd have no power to bill you.

The way that English freeholds in flats are organised is that you still don't own the freehold as such. Instead you have a share in the company that owns them. That way you cater for those that want to stay leasehold and also you have a central body responsible for maintainance and insurance.

Headhuunter

cee wrote:

as for communal repairs...

if the relevant parties cannot come to a jointly mutual undertaking to carry out the repairs....

then the council do the work and bill each flat individually for their share....

The local council step in to sort out your (privately owned) building for you? I can't see Lewisham Borough Council doing this!

cee

no management by the council....it is a safety measure to ensure that communal repairs can be carried out, even if one owner does not commit to contribute.....what would happen is that the other owners would contact the council and contract them to carry out the work. They then bill each household separately for their share.

it works out more expensive if you have to do that...it is much more preferable to get the repars done mutually.......

as said...we have a Feuhold....which i don't think exists in englandshire....but is like a freehold in a lot of ways.

waddlie

The regs in Scotland are different and don't apply to properties in England.

The OP's best bet is to take a trip to an insurance broker.

Headhuunter

cee wrote:

no management by the council....it is a safety measure to ensure that communal repairs can be carried out, even if one owner does not commit to contribute.....what would happen is that the other owners would contact the council and contract them to carry out the work. They then bill each household separately for their share.

it works out more expensive if you have to do that...it is much more preferable to get the repars done mutually.......

as said...we have a Feuhold....which i don't think exists in englandshire....but is like a freehold in a lot of ways.

Yeah the law is definitely different in Scotland. The only way the council would organise maintanence of a building in England is if they own the freehold, as in a block of council flats, a couple of which may have passed into private hands, but the freehold and maintanence is still carried out by the council. They then bill the private flat owners.

cee

ok...

checked policy...

My policy states a rebuild value which would not cover the entire building. Just my share, although it is much higher than the market value of my property...i guess its expensive to rebuild traditional sandstone tenement buildings!

Also....just realised that many of the legal statues in my policy surround something called the Tenement (Scotland) Act 2004...which, among other things, obliges owners in a block of flats to have buildings insurance for their share (this could be either by communal policy or by individual policies...but each share must be accounted for.)....if you don't have it...you have broken the law!

so clearly there are different legal mechanisms for this kind of thing on england.

on communal repairs....under this act...if the owners have difficulty in reaching agreement between themselves on the repair...we can request what is called a Statutory notice, which is applicable to the following list only...

Roof & Elevation
Blocked Drains
Entryphone Systems
Internal/External Pipes
Wastepipes/Soil Pipes
Boundary Wall
Fallen Masonry
Wet/Dry Rot

We could also organise a home owners association (like it seems you are trying to sort out), or hire a factoring service...

So...probably best ignore all of my comments.....since my experience most definately does not apply to you folks south of the border!

Headhuunter

cee wrote:

ok...

checked policy...

My policy states a rebuild value which would not cover the entire building. Just my share, although it is much higher than the market value of my property...i guess its expensive to rebuild traditional sandstone tenement buildings!

Also....just realised that many of the legal statues in my policy surround something called the Tenement (Scotland) Act 2004...which, among other things, obliges owners in a block of flats to have buildings insurance for their share (this could be either by communal policy or by individual policies...but each share must be accounted for.)....if you don't have it...you have broken the law!

so clearly there are different legal mechanisms for this kind of thing on england.

on communal repairs....under this act...if the owners have difficulty in reaching agreement between themselves on the repair...we can request what is called a Statutory notice, which is applicable to the following list only...

Roof & Elevation
Blocked Drains
Entryphone Systems
Internal/External Pipes
Wastepipes/Soil Pipes
Boundary Wall
Fallen Masonry
Wet/Dry Rot

We could also organise a home owners association (like it seems you are trying to sort out), or hire a factoring service...

So...probably best ignore all of my comments.....since my experience most definitely does not apply to you folks south of the border!

Interesting. I always wondered how it worked in Scotland. We have friend in an Edinburgh tenement and they didn't seem to know how it worked. I wonder who ensures that each flat owner has bldgs insurance? Otherwise it must be like car insurance - lots of uninsured people out there... In England there is the leasehold tribunal which I think, you can turn to to sort out issues with other flat owners, the freeholder, the management company etc. We have already sorted out our own body to manage the building - we set up a private company (of which I am a Director) which manages the building on our behalf and of which we all own a share. We haven't hired in a management "factoring" service, as we can just do everything ourselves, it's hardly a big job, yet the management company used to charge £1-1500 per flat per year.... Unsurprisingly we did not require their services any longer....

Clever Pun

apparently you can use moneysupermarket.com just need to specify the whole block of flats

cee

Headhuunter wrote:

Interesting. I always wondered how it worked in Scotland. We have friend in an Edinburgh tenement and they didn't seem to know how it worked. I wonder who ensures that each flat owner has bldgs insurance? Otherwise it must be like car insurance - lots of uninsured people out there... In England there is the leasehold tribunal which I think, you can turn to to sort out issues with other flat owners, the freeholder, the management company etc. We have already sorted out our own body to manage the building - we set up a private company (of which I am a Director) which manages the building on our behalf and of which we all own a share. We haven't hired in a management "factoring" service, as we can just do everything ourselves, it's hardly a big job, yet the management company used to charge £1-1500 per flat per year.... Unsurprisingly we did not require their services any longer....

I think generally, people buy properties by way of mortgage....mortgages stipulate insurance and require evidence as part of the process.

The solicitor who deals with the cash exchange (i am aware that the buying process is different in scotland too....gazzumping is now almost unheard of...the law association have an agreement which means you get to contract much more quickly than is possible in some cases down south), also have an obligation to check that the insurance is there.

I guess the danger after that is where an individual owner lets their insurance lapse...in that case...the statute is there to protect those who have insurance...rather than punish the individual who does not....although the reality is...if a sandstone tenement burns to the ground...i don't think any of the occupants would ever move back into that property...it could be years before the rebuild is complete (as is the case of the site of the guilded baloon in edinburgh which burnt down in 2002. The site has been cleared, but even still, no rebuild work has even started....)

Perhaps your homeowners association or whatever the term is, can purchase a policy (much like your previous management company would have done) to cover the buildings insurance?

Headhuunter

Clever Pun wrote:

apparently you can use moneysupermarket.com just need to specify the whole block of flats

OK, I'll check up on that. Thanks....

lost_in_thought

HH, I manage blocks of flats and other commercial property for a living, and all the insurance, we go through brokers - if you would like some contacts do let me know.

The policies are generally quite different to those on homes - I can go into more detail if you're interested.

Headhuunter

cee wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Interesting. I always wondered how it worked in Scotland. We have friend in an Edinburgh tenement and they didn't seem to know how it worked. I wonder who ensures that each flat owner has bldgs insurance? Otherwise it must be like car insurance - lots of uninsured people out there... In England there is the leasehold tribunal which I think, you can turn to to sort out issues with other flat owners, the freeholder, the management company etc. We have already sorted out our own body to manage the building - we set up a private company (of which I am a Director) which manages the building on our behalf and of which we all own a share. We haven't hired in a management "factoring" service, as we can just do everything ourselves, it's hardly a big job, yet the management company used to charge £1-1500 per flat per year.... Unsurprisingly we did not require their services any longer....

I think generally, people buy properties by way of mortgage....mortgages stipulate insurance and require evidence as part of the process.

The solicitor who deals with the cash exchange (i am aware that the buying process is different in scotland too....gazzumping is now almost unheard of...the law association have an agreement which means you get to contract much more quickly than is possible in some cases down south), also have an obligation to check that the insurance is there.

I guess the danger after that is where an individual owner lets their insurance lapse...in that case...the statute is there to protect those who have insurance...rather than punish the individual who does not....although the reality is...if a sandstone tenement burns to the ground...i don't think any of the occupants would ever move back into that property...it could be years before the rebuild is complete (as is the case of the site of the guilded baloon in edinburgh which burnt down in 2002. The site has been cleared, but even still, no rebuild work has even started....)

Perhaps your homeowners association or whatever the term is, can purchase a policy (much like your previous management company would have done) to cover the buildings insurance?

The Gilded Balloon was not a mortgaged residence though so is probably a bit different. If people's homes burn down they need to be housed somewhere and will be paying a mortgage on a burnt out shell until it is rebuilt so I would assume it would get rebuilt pretty quickly.

The "homeowners association" is a limited company owned by the flat owners in the building, so it is us who need to sort out the insurance which is why I was asking in the 1st place... The buck stops with us...

Headhuunter

lost_in_thought wrote:

HH, I manage blocks of flats and other commercial property for a living, and all the insurance, we go through brokers - if you would like some contacts do let me know.

The policies are generally quite different to those on homes - I can go into more detail if you're interested.

I'm very interested.... Shall I PM you?

cee

Headhuunter

The guilded baloon building was over about 12 storeys...

GB had the bottom....edinburgh uni had some of their comp sci stuff in there...

at the top though...there were also residentials...

it was a massive block, going from the cowgate, up to north bridge level (maybe 5 -6 storeys..) then up a further 6 storeys...

There was a big mix of ownership, but all under the same hold....

i think the legal wranglings around all that is why it is still an empty site...

i understand that the homeowners association is your private company (ultimately, an agreed association between people who own the homes...)...what i meant was...can that company not buy a policy which covers the building, much the same as your previous management company would have done?

Headhuunter

cee wrote:

Headhuunter

The guilded baloon building was over about 12 storeys...

GB had the bottom....edinburgh uni had some of their comp sci stuff in there...

at the top though...there were also residentials...

it was a massive block, going from the cowgate, up to north bridge level (maybe 5 -6 storeys..) then up a further 6 storeys...

There was a big mix of ownership, but all under the same hold....

i think the legal wranglings around all that is why it is still an empty site...

i understand that the homeowners association is your private company (ultimately, an agreed association between people who own the homes...)...what i meant was...can that company not buy a policy which covers the building, much the same as your previous management company would have done?

Oh OK. Don't know the Guilded Balloon very well.... Yes the company can buy a policy for the building, that's what I'm trying to do and hence the initial question. We no longer have a managing agent to do that for us.

lost_in_thought

Headhuunter wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

HH, I manage blocks of flats and other commercial property for a living, and all the insurance, we go through brokers - if you would like some contacts do let me know.

The policies are generally quite different to those on homes - I can go into more detail if you're interested.

I'm very interested.... Shall I PM you?

In brokers or details?


EDIT: and this is why you need a managing agent.................. :P

cee

cool.

interesting topic

Headhuunter

lost_in_thought wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

HH, I manage blocks of flats and other commercial property for a living, and all the insurance, we go through brokers - if you would like some contacts do let me know.

The policies are generally quite different to those on homes - I can go into more detail if you're interested.

I'm very interested.... Shall I PM you?

In brokers or details?


EDIT: and this is why you need a managing agent.................. :P

Not to draw on your time too much but both. How are the policies different? What should I be looking out for? Which brokers should I try? Cheers very much. I'll buy you a beer or 2 at the Xmas bash if I can make it.....

Headhuunter

lost_in_thought wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

lost_in_thought wrote:

HH, I manage blocks of flats and other commercial property for a living, and all the insurance, we go through brokers - if you would like some contacts do let me know.

The policies are generally quite different to those on homes - I can go into more detail if you're interested.

I'm very interested.... Shall I PM you?

In brokers or details?


EDIT: and this is why you need a managing agent.................. :P

Sorry missed the bit about the managing agent. Yes, I would be happy to have a managing agent but it seems ridiculous to spend £1000 per flat just so that they can sort out insurance which I can sort out myself after a bit of Googling and asking on Bike Radar . If the managing agent charged reasonable prices for their services, they would still be employed....