Bicycle Lights and UK Law

fossyant

Mr Plum wrote:

theblender wrote:

I don't worry about being compliant, I worry about being seen.
As long as you are happy that you are visible to other road users, then you'll be fine.

That's a massive amount of naivety. As mentioned above, sh*t happens regardless of whether you're lit up like a Christmas tree or not...

It's not......... you worry about putting some inferior BS light on your bike, I'll stick with my bad ass bright ones, coupled with reflectors and reflective stickers etc etc.

In my earlier post, the police/lawyers aren't interested in the British Standard, just that you are visible.

Mr Plum

fossyant wrote:

Mr Plum wrote:

theblender wrote:

I don't worry about being compliant, I worry about being seen.
As long as you are happy that you are visible to other road users, then you'll be fine.

That's a massive amount of naivety. As mentioned above, sh*t happens regardless of whether you're lit up like a Christmas tree or not...

It's not......... you worry about putting some inferior BS light on your bike, I'll stick with my bad ass bright ones, coupled with reflectors and reflective stickers etc etc.

In my earlier post, the police/lawyers aren't interested in the British Standard, just that you are visible.

I can't see how thinking that as long as you're visible then you're not going to be hit isn't massively naive? ...unless it was meant as "you'll be fine" with regards to the law?

Mr Plum

PBo wrote:

I've got that light too. I believe that a reflector has to conform to BS6102/2/ not /3, so that mark is for the light I think.

As regards your question about flashing modes "If capable of emitting a steady light it must be marked as conforming to BS3648, or BS6102/3" - if it can be steady then it needs to be marked, even if you use it flashing

Ah ok, I think I'm starting to understand it... ish :? :P

desweller

I run two lights front and rear, one fixed and one flashing at both ends. The fixed lamps are BS compliant. No pedal reflectors though (although, I have to say, they do work pretty well - I have noticed many a light-less cyclist in the dark thanks to those).

I wonder if spen666 is aware of any cases where a cyclist has lost his/her case due to not having pedal reflectors?

geordiefella

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I keep meaning to put some of that black but lit when torched scotlite stuff on my pedal stems to act like reflectors...

i got some of that on my black commuter during last winter. its great. lights up white when shone upon. best position i felt was side showing angles where i am less lit up, and rear portion of mudguard stay for extra rear visability. great stuff. bought on ebay. thick strip and some slimmer strips. you absolutely can't see it daytime, if your bike is black of course.

spen666

DesWeller wrote:

...
I wonder if spen666 is aware of any cases where a cyclist has lost his/her case due to not having pedal reflectors?

My expertise is in criminal law. I'd be suprised to see a case brought if cyclist has appropriate ( even if not legal) lighting but no pedal reflectors. If you were summonsed for this by police, I'd expect CPS to drop case if you pleaded not guilty.

In civil law, the issue is more about negligence than strict compliance with letter of law. Driver would need to show that somehow the lack of pedal reflectors contributed to the accident.

Pedal reflectors are actually very effective because they show up as light moving up and down - ie different to most lighting you see and therefore the brain picks up on it more than light at fixed height

DCowling

geordiefella wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

I keep meaning to put some of that black but lit when torched scotlite stuff on my pedal stems to act like reflectors...

i got some of that on my black commuter during last winter. its great. lights up white when shone upon. best position i felt was side showing angles where i am less lit up, and rear portion of mudguard stay for extra rear visability. great stuff. bought on ebay. thick strip and some slimmer strips. you absolutely can't see it daytime, if your bike is black of course.

Hi
I have had a look on ebay but cannot see it, is there a trade / label name for it
Thanks

Headhuunter

When I had my crash last year the sol at RJW asked if I had been wearing anything hi viz but she didn't ask anything about lights. To be honest it was after 8am and although a little dingy and cloudy it wasn't pitch black. Anyway the claim is settled now and other than my sol asking about hi viz the other side didn't even mention it...

PBo

spen666 wrote:

DesWeller wrote:

...
I wonder if spen666 is aware of any cases where a cyclist has lost his/her case due to not having pedal reflectors?

My expertise is in criminal law. I'd be suprised to see a case brought if cyclist has appropriate ( even if not legal) lighting but no pedal reflectors. If you were summonsed for this by police, I'd expect CPS to drop case if you pleaded not guilty.

In civil law, the issue is more about negligence than strict compliance with letter of law. Driver would need to show that somehow the lack of pedal reflectors contributed to the accident.

Pedal reflectors are actually very effective because they show up as light moving up and down - ie different to most lighting you see and therefore the brain picks up on it more than light at fixed height

If I'm being rational, I think that the decent but non-legal lights would be very hard for the drivers insurers to claim contributory neg. I guess if you have some cheap lights, that maybe aren't bright enough, or don't have a sufficient angle of visibilty, then there's more of a possibility. I guess I'm lucky - all my cycling is urban, so I have got some moderate BS lights front and back, and other lights too - but I don't need lights to see by, most of which don't seem to be BS approved.

What worries me - and combats the above rational opinion - is that many people on here talk about claims taking around a year to go through, and I just feel that leaving yourself open to anything that risks muddying the waters of the case makes a bad situation worse. Cynic that I am, I guess I feel that the worse the crash, and the more compo is at stake, the more likely the insurers are to try to reduce their liability. It's all hassle that's not needed.....

The pedal reflectors are interesting - once again, I'm legal because I use "half and half" SPD pedals with BS reflectors. My own observation as a driver agrees with you Spen, they are really effective at drawing attention, more so than a constant rear light. I guess that this effectiveness could be used against you in a contrib. neg argument even more so than non legal lights. And its certainly more clear cut. "The cyclist did not have a legally required - and very effective - visibility aid on his bike, clearly contributing to his lack of visibilty" is better than. "the cyclist didn't have legal lights" "But he had lights.....?" "yes, but not BS lights" "ok, where they of sufficiently poor quality to contribute to the lack of visibilty?" "Er....well no, actually he was lit up like the proverbial xmas tree - but they weren't legal" "So the driver couldn't see this xmas tree just because the lights didn't have BS6102/3 stamped on them...?" "eeerrrrrr......bugg3r. You smell!"

PBo

just need to get my wooden spoon out...... :twisted:

How many here, who abuse RLJ-ers, ride clipless, ie without pedal reflectors.......

jds_1981

I don't abuse RLJs who do so sensibly. I also don't have pedal reflectors on my SPDs.

Mr Plum

Definitely thinking about getting some of the reflective tape for the front and back of my clipless pedals - seems like a better compromise than loosing the double sided ability.

geordiefella wrote:

best position i felt was side showing angles where i am less lit up, and rear portion of mudguard stay for extra rear visability

That's a really good point. Think I may have to do this.

re-cycles

Slightly off topic, but I picked up some of the 3M reflective vinyl from my local sign maker. They had loads of off cuts from commercial vehicles and I got enough to do the front forks and rear stays on 3 bikes plus loads of odd bits to put here and there for just a fiver!

The Rookie

Another +1 for the scotchlite tape, I have a big piece of it, crank arms are a good place to put it as a side reflector, on my old Deore arms I shaped it to fill the fillet, can't do that with my PFF's, so less neat.

Simon

notsoblue

Is there anything in the law about lights being *too* bright?

Headhuunter

notsoblue wrote:

Is there anything in the law about lights being *too* bright?

A guy from work uses the Exposure Maxx as his main front light, as well as a couple of helmet lights and an Exposure Flare on the back with a one of those fat Cat Eye multi LED ones. He looks like a bloody comet on the way down the road but has never been stopped. Says that cars positively swerve to avoid him though. Probably to save their retinas...

gaz545

My legs spin so fast that pedal reflectors would be useless anyway.

OldSkoolKona

You could buy a roll of that Scotchlite and have a complete bike covered in it - very Tron!

http://www.fabricuk.com/reflective.php

Mr Plum

notsoblue wrote:

Is there anything in the law about lights being *too* bright?

I was wondering about this too. From reading a bit online I get the impression that as long as you don't have something crazy like a 1000 lumen light glaring the eyes of oncoming traffic then you should be fine. Keep really bright lights slightly tilted towards the road maybe?

I got some abuse last week from a guy in a car coming towards me on a main road for having my Smart 1W (bright, but not as bright as some) strobing straight at eye level. I guess he had a a point - I could see it reflecting off road signs about 500m away on long straight roads.

Specialized Needs

PBo wrote:

just need to get my wooden spoon out...... :twisted:

How many here, who abuse RLJ-ers, ride clipless, ie without pedal reflectors.......

Adding some custard powder to your mix ...

I use the PD22's I mentioned earlier (well, i do when my arm isn't in plaster :evil:). However, my lights are non-BS compliant. My objection to RLJ (although I don't express it on the road except by looking disappointed) is about the secondary impact it has on me, both presumably to people's attitudes towards me on the road (applying their stereotype to me) and wasting hours of my time at work/pub/social events having to explain to sceptical people that, even though I cycle to work, I don't RLJ :roll:

I have never been called on to justify not using BS approved lights or lacking pedal reflectors, nor am I under the impression that this is part of the average person's stereotype of a cyclist. Oddly, thinking about it, others tend to presume I will RLJ but they ask whether I use lights. Strange.

Headhuunter

Specialized Needs wrote:

PBo wrote:

just need to get my wooden spoon out...... :twisted:

How many here, who abuse RLJ-ers, ride clipless, ie without pedal reflectors.......

Adding some custard powder to your mix ...

I use the PD22's I mentioned earlier (well, i do when my arm isn't in plaster :evil:). However, my lights are non-BS compliant. My objection to RLJ (although I don't express it on the road except by looking disappointed) is about the secondary impact it has on me, both presumably to people's attitudes towards me on the road (applying their stereotype to me) and wasting hours of my time at work/pub/social events having to explain to sceptical people that, even though I cycle to work, I don't RLJ :roll:

I have never been called on to justify not using BS approved lights or lacking pedal reflectors, nor am I under the impression that this is part of the average person's stereotype of a cyclist. Oddly, thinking about it, others tend to presume I will RLJ but they ask whether I use lights. Strange.

Good point about lights and RLJ-ing. Both are breaking the law yet some people get all high and mighty about RLJ-ing. In my view if people choose to have a Daily Mail rant about ALL cyclists RLJ-ing that's their problem. I generally have a rant back about car drivers ALL speeding, ALL parking illegally and ALL talking on their mobiles. However usually people overlook these little "foibles" from drivers, they're just one of those things.

In fact a guy I met on a train a couple of months who had lost his licence for drink driving (or was it driving whilst using a mobile?) anyway he told me about it with a grin on his face, yet I bet if I'd told him that as a cyclist I RLJ-ed, he would probably have been flabbergasted. Some things need to be viewed with a little more perspective.

Mr Plum

Just spoke to a 'bobby on a bike' about this... well, there were 2 of them...

He said that as far as he is concerned, if you've got lights then he doesn't give a hairy rats arse about whether they're compliant with the relevant BS standard, and he pretty much assured me that a defence lawyer wouldn't have much (or any) of a case for contributory negligence as long as your lights are of at least equal brightness to a set of BS approved lights - as long as this can be proved in court. He stressed that this was personal opinion, of course...

BTW - we checked the lights he and his colleague were using... they weren't marked as being BS approved either.

dondare

Quote

"Exceptions and explanations
Age brings privileges. To name but two: cycles manufactured before October 1990 can have any kind of white front lamp that is visible from a reasonable distance, and pre-October 1985 cycles don’t need pedal reflectors."

That's me alright then. My bike is old enough to be privileged.

Underscore

Mr Plum wrote:

notsoblue wrote:

Is there anything in the law about lights being *too* bright?

I was wondering about this too. From reading a bit online I get the impression that as long as you don't have something crazy like a 1000 lumen light glaring the eyes of oncoming traffic then you should be fine. Keep really bright lights slightly tilted towards the road maybe?

I got some abuse last week from a guy in a car coming towards me on a main road for having my Smart 1W (bright, but not as bright as some) strobing straight at eye level. I guess he had a a point - I could see it reflecting off road signs about 500m away on long straight roads.

From Guidance about lights on pedal bicycles:

The Department of Transport wrote:

Optional lamps and reflectors

1. Additional lighting to the above mentioned obligatory lights is permitted under certain conditions:
2. - It must not dazzle other road users
- It must be the correct colour (white to front, red to rear)
- If it flashes it must conform to the required flash rate (1-4 equal flashes per second)
3. Optional lights are not required to conform to BS 6102-3 and there is no minimum level of intensity. So for example, on the rear of the cycle a cyclist may wish to have both a steady red lamp which conforms to BS 6102-3 and an additional flashing lamp which is not meeting the minimum level of 4 candela.

HTH,

_

snooks

OldSkoolKona wrote:

You could buy a roll of that Scotchlite and have a complete bike covered in it - very Tron!

http://www.fabricuk.com/reflective.php

I was actually thinking about having "ol' rusty" powder coated a light grey colour to match the tape, then put the tape on the frame as before, so it's not noticeable during the day but at night it a case of WTF???

Mine is the marine grade SOLAS 3M stuff....blooming expensive tho

Fireblade96

I bought a roll of SOLAS sew-on tape - the sort they use on sailing gear and life jackets - and have sewn a length of it onto each of my rucsac straps. Now need (when fingers recover from this sewing malarkey) a strip on the back of the rucsac, and I'm Mr. Hi Viz without needing to wear a silly vest :-)

Mr Plum

I got some reflective stuff for the bike I use for the commute:





Put it on both sides of the forks and front/back of both crank arms. I've got a dirty feeling like I've defaced it now...

PBo

dude - is that a purpley/pinky colour? With some kind of flowery pattern?

Why not just get handle bar tassles

jeremyrundle

flashes it must conform to the required flash rate (1-4 equal flashes per second)


This is because at this rate it will not induce a fit in someone suffering epilepsy, drivers etc.

Fireblade96

PBo wrote:

dude - is that a purpley/pinky colour? With some kind of flowery pattern?

Why not just get handle bar tassles

Don't knock pinky purple bikes, especially if they're for commuting !
(I've had one for years, it's all part of the anti-theft strategy. That and the wire basket on the rack...)