Time Efficient Winter Training.

amc

Just finished my 1st season of racing and would like to improve next year so i'd appreciate some pointers on how to make the most of my limited training time.
My biggest problem (after lack of talent) is lack of time. Three kids, weird shifts, working every other weekend etc etc means I rely on a daily London commute (13 miles round trip) plus a race/training session once a fortnight (perhaps with odd sneaky interval session on top).
In my races (Cat 3 now) I seem to be good at suffering and hanging on but lack a good sprint - and i seem to expend so much energy just keeping up that don't have enough left for more than a few weedy attacks.
I guess traditionally (with time allowing) i would get some good zone 2 base rides in over winter to improve my fat burning so i could save some energy for attacks and sprints (which i could also hone).
But with limited time is it even worth doing a long 2 hours plus zone 2 rides once a fortnight? Does the gap between them mean i lose the benefit?
I'll def do some sprint sessions but confused as to what else would be best.
All thoughts gratefully received.

Bronzie

Become one with your turbo trainer - it's the most time-efficient way of training if you can stomach the boredom. You can fit a lot of good training into an hour on the turbo without leaving home and having to spend 10 minutes get dressed up like the Michelin man to venture out of the door.

- make it as entertaining as possible - DVD's, iPod, Sufferfest podcasts
- make sure the little darlings can't disturb you halfway through a session
- get a nice big fan
- get into some decent threshold sessions (2x20's @ Level 4 / solid tempo sessions L3)
- use a rear wheel speedo to pace your sessions and track your progress if you don't have access to a power meter

ut_och_cykla

Bronzies idea is the best if poss. you need to be working on not just hanging on...perhaps getting a coach to deal with teh complicated work/training planning would help? For a Christmas prezzy for example? either way - keep cycling but don't flog yourself too much just now... next spring is still a way off!

softlad

if this was your first season, and you are a 3rd cat, then you must have already gained enough points in races to move up from 4th. So, you were obviously doing something right. Can you remember what were the factors which put you in the points in the first place...??

amc

Thanks guys,

I moved up a cat by winning my 2nd Cat 4 only race in a winter series of circuits in a small (25-30) field - i think i'm good at the suffering so managed to hang on and won a two-up sprint. What with my age, talent and training time, Cat 3 is right for me but i want to compete a bit more if poss.

At the moment i'm not sure if i could stretch to a turbo or a coach (although i have no idea what the latter costs to be honest). I do try and do hard on one leg of my commute, which prob equates to around 20 min TT pace (with obvious stops and starts thrown in).

Do you think it's worth bothering with any zone 2 sessions or just sticking to intensive stuff instead?

Toks

amc wrote:

Thanks guys,

I moved up a cat by winning my 2nd Cat 4 only race in a winter series of circuits in a small (25-30) field - i think i'm good at the suffering so managed to hang on and won a two-up sprint. What with my age, talent and training time, Cat 3 is right for me but i want to compete a bit more if poss.

At the moment I'm not sure if i could stretch to a turbo or a coach (although i have no idea what the latter costs to be honest). I do try and do hard on one leg of my commute, which prob equates to around 20 min TT pace (with obvious stops and starts thrown in).

Do you think it's worth bothering with any zone 2 sessions or just sticking to intensive stuff instead?

Every thing what Bronzie says. Try and get into the 2 x 20's they really are value for money in training terms...If you've only got 5-7 hours training time you should be riding fairly intensively (close to or @ race/TT pace) for most if not all of your rides. If you've got 8-12 hours can afford to mix and match a bit more (tempo/sweet spot - e.g. friendly fast pace with 1-3 threshold/race pace efforts - all depends on your recovery of course. If you've got more than 12 hours training time per week - I'm very jealous, monitor your fatigue levels, mostly tempo + endurance I guess and some threshold sessions till your 5/6 weeks away from racing - then vo2max stuff, chain gang and shorter anaerobic intervals. Glad to hear you've joined the racing game

jibberjim

No need to get a turbo, you can do sessions on the road, drop the commute as any sort of training if it's in London, there's too much recovery and too little on time to make it anything but a sprint session which isn't going to help this far out, you want steady efforts now.

No need to do "2x20" unless you can't do "1x50-60" for some reason, find a nice lit left turn/roundabout based route lasting 50-60 minutes, get some lights and do it in the evening - your local cycling club may well have one already mapped out.

Three of those a week, and commuting at easy pace will likely be all you need, if you can do one of them in a group even better. Then if you can get out and do a longer ride at the weekend when the weather is nice, go for it, long and easy with all out efforts up a few hills.

That's assuming your threshold is not already a high percentage of your 5 minute power.

Also, remember in 3rd cat races, they're often very, very easy until the last 5 minutes when people start working - and it's not a "sprint" that lets you down but simply not having the aerobic fitness for this time. Race a couple of 2-3's on tough courses, or even better 2/3/4's (the 2's go off even harder to drop the 4's) to see if it really is just a "sprint" letting you down.

sheffsimon

jibberjim wrote:

No need to get a turbo, you can do sessions on the road, drop the commute as any sort of training if it's in London, there's too much recovery and too little on time to make it anything but a sprint session which isn't going to help this far out, you want steady efforts now.

No need to do "2x20" unless you can't do "1x50-60" for some reason, find a nice lit left turn/roundabout based route lasting 50-60 minutes, get some lights and do it in the evening - your local cycling club may well have one already mapped out.

Three of those a week, and commuting at easy pace will likely be all you need, if you can do one of them in a group even better. Then if you can get out and do a longer ride at the weekend when the weather is nice, go for it, long and easy with all out efforts up a few hills.

That's assuming your threshold is not already a high percentage of your 5 minute power.

Also, remember in 3rd cat races, they're often very, very easy until the last 5 minutes when people start working - and it's not a "sprint" that lets you down but simply not having the aerobic fitness for this time. Race a couple of 2-3's on tough courses, or even better 2/3/4's (the 2's go off even harder to drop the 4's) to see if it really is just a "sprint" letting you down.

I would agree with all jim has said here. If you can tack your hour of training onto the end of your commute home, then you are already out of the house and warmed up. I do exactly this myself in the winter, got a few streetlit hilly routes (no avoiding the hills in Sheffield ) which I do 2-3 times a week, takes about an hour extra on the commute, plus a 2 hr hard tempo ride on Sundays. Will throw in some sprint sessions early spring.

Last weeks Cycling had an article about us oldies concentrating more on intensity to reduce muscle mass loss, rather than long steady miles. Dont know your age amc but I guess with three kids you are probably not in the first flush of youth

Zachariah

The above sounds like good training practice, but I don't think it addresses the OP's concerns - time. I'm a 36 yr-old father of two with very limited hours to train. I've deliberately extended the commute home from the direct and fairly flat 1.5 miles to an extremely hilly 8.5 run, and on the weekends I can get away for 2hrs in the early morning (either Sat or Sun but not both) to do a fairly intensive tempo run wherever I can. Every month I do one club run but these have so far been pretty sedate.

For me to get up to race fitness, a turbo looks like the only option, as I can use the evenings when the kids are alseep. Right now, evening sessions are not an option.

jibberjim

Zachariah wrote:

For me to get up to race fitness, a turbo looks like the only option, as I can use the evenings when the kids are alseep. Right now, evening sessions are not an option.

If you can't leave the house because you have to look after the kids, then yes you'll have to cycle in doors, but I don't see what else is different? I do a 1 hour threshold session in 67minutes of riding plus the 10 minutes it takes to get changed and showered after. The extra time over a turbo is minimal, particularly if you don't have the room for a permanently set up turbo.

jgsi

jibberjim wrote:

No need to get a turbo, you can do sessions on the road, drop the commute as any sort of training if it's in London, there's too much recovery and too little on time to make it anything but a sprint session which isn't going to help this far out, you want steady efforts now.

No need to do "2x20" unless you can't do "1x50-60" for some reason, find a nice lit left turn/roundabout based route lasting 50-60 minutes, get some lights and do it in the evening - your local cycling club may well have one already mapped out.

Three of those a week, and commuting at easy pace will likely be all you need,.

What intensity do you recommend for this?
I have a 21 mile circuit that has 3 distinct sectors.. 5, 6 and 10 mile .. the 3rd increasing in uphill drag.
My own thought is too keep it 'loose' for this last quarter and then in 2011start pushing it on a bit.

jibberjim

JGSI wrote:

What intensity do you recommend for this?
I have a 21 mile circuit that has 3 distinct sectors.. 5, 6 and 10 mile .. the 3rd increasing in uphill drag.
My own thought is too keep it 'loose' for this last quarter and then in 2011start pushing it on a bit.

I'd do every single session at threshold (ie aiming to complete the course as quickly as possible as if it was a TT), it's 3 hours a week, there's no point doing it less and holding back, you're not doing enough overall volume to make it worthwhile.

You may mentally not be up for that, but that's a seperate issue as to what's better training, and mental issues aren't something I can comment on

Zachariah

jibberjim wrote:

If you can't leave the house because you have to look after the kids, then yes you'll have to cycle in doors, but I don't see what else is different? I do a 1 hour threshold session in 67minutes of riding plus the 10 minutes it takes to get changed and showered after. The extra time over a turbo is minimal, particularly if you don't have the room for a permanently set up turbo.

Agreed, the real issue is I can't leave the house for most of the week (apart from going to work...That's allowed...)

Gav888

Bronzie wrote:

Become one with your turbo trainer - it's the most time-efficient way of training if you can stomach the boredom. You can fit a lot of good training into an hour on the turbo without leaving home and having to spend 10 minutes get dressed up like the Michelin man to venture out of the door.

- make it as entertaining as possible - DVD's, iPod, Sufferfest podcasts
- make sure the little darlings can't disturb you halfway through a session
- get a nice big fan
- get into some decent threshold sessions (2x20's @ Level 4 / solid tempo sessions L3)
- use a rear wheel speedo to pace your sessions and track your progress if you don't have access to a power meter

+1

Thick Tester

amc wrote:

Just finished my 1st season of racing and would like to improve next year so i'd appreciate some pointers on how to make the most of my limited training time.
All thoughts gratefully received.

What are you racing ? Crit's or RR's

amc

Thanks again - lots of food (or at least energy bars) for thought there.
I mainly race crits, but would like to do more road races, except they are on the Sunday when my wife or I usually working.
But jibberjim you are right, although i have a pretty lousy sprint (which i can do some specific sessions to improve at least) i think its the aerobic fitness where i'm particularly weak as it the last 2/3/4 race i did i got dropped at after 55 of the 70 miles and the 3/4 rr i did i finished in the pack after just hanging on for last two laps. I am almost 40 and this was my first year of racing so no shame....but i'd like to do better next year.
But as usual, i'm a bit confused - should i do the 1 * 60 sessions (assuming i can get maybe two in a week) at race pace - or something more akin to level 2. If its at full effort, which i think you're saying, when do i get a chance to improve my fat burning 'skills' that tradition slower winter club rides (which i cannot do) are aimed at.
And if do get out at weekends for a longer one - should that be ideally level 2 with hard effort up hills? Mentally i find it harder to go slower/easy as i'm so short of time i tend end up want to make the most (in my mind ie suffer) of each session.

jibberjim

amc wrote:

But as usual, i'm a bit confused - should i do the 1 * 60 sessions (assuming i can get maybe two in a week) at race pace - or something more akin to level 2. If its at full effort, which i think you're saying, when do i get a chance to improve my fat burning 'skills' that tradition slower winter club rides (which i cannot do) are aimed at.

At full pace yes, and they do train your "fat burning skills". Your body is always using a mixture of fuels at any aerobic energy. But even if it didn't, if you're barely hanging on at the end of a 3/4 road race being able to burn a little more fat isn't going to make any difference to your result. Having a larger threshold will.

This "spend the time in zone 2 learning how to burn fat" is something no-one has been able to explain the processes behind it - your body is continously burning fat 24 hours a day, it knows how to do it. The physiological changes brought about by riding in zone 2 are a subset of the physiological changes you get riding at threshold, nothing is gained. If you can increase your total load such that you accumulate more LOAD with extra zone 2 riding then that's fine, but you can only do that if you have a lot of time. But even then you'd be better off doing more threshold, the problem is your body is unlikely to be able to do more than 5 hours a week of threshold, so anything over that has to be in zone 2 which you could comfortably add a lot more time in.

amc wrote:

And if do get out at weekends for a longer one - should that be ideally level 2 with hard effort up hills? Mentally i find it harder to go slower/easy as i'm so short of time i tend end up want to make the most (in my mind ie suffer) of each session.

Yes, since by going faster in between the hills will really compromise the hill efforts, so whilst you could just hammer it all the time, that will reduce your hill efforts to threshold, you want to get them way above threshold into literally all you can do for 5 minutes unable to pedal at the top.

Bronzie

amc wrote:

when do i get a chance to improve my fat burning 'skills' that tradition slower winter club rides (which i cannot do) are aimed at.

As Jim has posted, to a large extent Levels 2,3 & 4 give similar benefits......you are simply trading intensity and duration. If you can't ride much, then you'd better ride hard.

If you increase your sustainable power at threshold (for example by doing targetted Level 4 work), then you shift the point at which your body switches over to using mainly carbs as fuel upwards.
ie if you ride at 200W average power and your threshold is 300W you will be using more fat as fuel than if your threshold was 250W.

softlad

jibberjim wrote:

if you're barely hanging on at the end of a 3/4 road race being able to burn a little more fat isn't going to make any difference to your result. Having a larger threshold will.

but good threshold isn't going to help at the end of a long RR if your legs are already shot to bits..?

I'll probably get shot down for this, but racing is a combination of heart, lungs and legs. You can develop all the threshold capability you can, but you will still struggle in longer races if you do not have the endurance to ride strongly all the way to the finish line..

jibberjim

softlad wrote:

but good threshold isn't going to help at the end of a long RR if your legs are already shot to bits..?

I'll probably get shot down for this, but racing is a combination of heart, lungs and legs. You can develop all the threshold capability you can, but you will still struggle in longer races if you do not have the endurance to ride strongly all the way to the finish line..

All 3 of heart lungs and legs are built by threshold efforts, whilst you might with lots of slow training be able to change your 3 hour intensity to be 95% of treshold rather than 92% of threshold, but that's barely an improvement compared to increasing your threshold 10%.

What exactly does "legs are already shot to bits" mean?

Bronzie

softlad wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

if you're barely hanging on at the end of a 3/4 road race being able to burn a little more fat isn't going to make any difference to your result. Having a larger threshold will.

but good threshold isn't going to help at the end of a long RR if your legs are already shot to bits..?

I'll probably get shot down for this, but racing is a combination of heart, lungs and legs. You can develop all the threshold capability you can, but you will still struggle in longer races if you do not have the endurance to ride strongly all the way to the finish line..

That is true - you need a decent volume of training behind you (Chronic Training Load for those who train with power) as well as a decent threshold power for the longer races. But that doesn't mean you have to spend all winter chugging along on L2 rides and do nothing else.

softlad

Bronzie wrote:

That is true - you need a decent volume of training behind you (Chronic Training Load for those who train with power) as well as a decent threshold power for the longer races. But that doesn't mean you have to spend all winter chugging along on L2 rides and do nothing else.

agreed..

andypaul99

jibberjim wrote:

This "spend the time in zone 2 learning how to burn fat" is something no-one has been able to explain the processes behind it - your body is continously burning fat 24 hours a day, it knows how to do it.

I thought the same thing so last year i trained hard in zone 3 and 4 for my longish rides, which led me to overtrain/ burn out and wreck the whole summer.

Zone 2 isnt just about burning fat, its about building an aerobic foundation to which you can build on with higher intensitys when the time is right. Its also a zone you can spend alot of time in per ride so you will get a real endurance benefit. Its also an ideal oppertunity to experiment with different fueling techniques, my zone 2 rides rarely last less than 4 hours but i can honestly say its paid dividends with my overall endurance.

If you are just planning to race flat out for 90 mins maybe you wouldnt need as much Z2 work but unless you are a XC racer or doing Cyclocross i would say that long Z2 sessions are vital

Team Banana Spokesman

my threshold of 256 watts is a pro riders 'recovery' zone. L1
he will beat me so bad in any race any time without even trying even if my ctl was 700 and I had a sprint of 2000 watts.

Toks

jibberjim wrote:

No need to do "2x20" unless you can't do "1x50-60" for some reason, find a nice lit left turn/roundabout based route lasting 50-60 minutes, get some lights and do it in the evening - your local cycling club may well have one already mapped out.
.

As has been said before there's nothing magical about 2 x 20's 2 x 15's of even 3 x 30's. If you have thes concentration and dedication to jump straight into a 50+min threshold session - hats off. In my experience the effort tends to tail off in the 2nd half with people new to this training (it did with me - perhaps having a powermeter helps ) A threshold session spilt into two fifteen or twenty minute chunks with a mental breather of a few minutes will be a bit more tolerable especially on those 'I can't-take-it-no-more-days'.

rdt

Toks wrote:

A threshold session spilt into two fifteen or twenty minute chunks with a mental breather of a few minutes will be a bit more tolerable especially on those 'I can't-take-it-no-more-days'.

I'm not averse to the turbo, so long as the sessions are relatively interesting and not too mentally tasking :roll: By that, I mean sessions which have zero variation, but where the effort level requires high concentration to maintain.

For that reason, I'll not usually look forward to a 2x20mins, so may swap it out for e.g. 6 or 7 x 4mins (2mins easy in between), done at a bit higher intensity than the 2x20. Different training effect, no doubt, but at least I'm on the bike. Similarly, I do an uninterrupted 40mins threshold-type session (+10min warm up / 5min warm down), but spend 1.5-2mins standing up during each 5min period of the 40. For me, this mentally breaks the session into something more palatable, bang-for-the-buck taking second place to mental do-ability. I do similar things with other sessions. For those with greater dedication, who've MTF'dU, none of this should apply

jibberjim

Toks wrote:

A threshold session spilt into two fifteen or twenty minute chunks with a mental breather of a few minutes will be a bit more tolerable especially on those 'I can't-take-it-no-more-days'.

Sure, if you can't do it straight, have breaks, time at threshold is what matters.

Outside is a lot more interesting than a turbo, and there's always the hope that the traffic lights will be against you so you can have enforced breaks...

milese

Its worth reading (something like) the Time Crunched Training Plan by Carmicheal to give a bit of an understanding about how your body responds to different types of training and how to make the most out of limited time.

Basically you want to get as much workload as you can into your training to force your body to adapt.

Workload = Intensity x Time

Where you have limited time, you must increase the intensity to get as much workload as possible.

When you have lots of time you must be careful with intensity to protect against fatigue.

Gav888

This came up before and im still not 100% sure what to do personally, but I have approx 6 hour to train per week and going by what has been discussed myself being a 'time crunched' cyclist I should be spending my time at higher work loads, such as z3 / z4 / z5 stuff.

Not a problem doing that, but surely you cannot do that week after week all year round as it would result in burn out? If thats the case, then what do you do when your not doing the higher end stuff, lots of z2 i guess, but as your short on time I guess this is less benefitial?

Would something like a 4 weeks hard, 1 week easy, 4 weeks hard, 1 week easy - all year work for a time crunched person, or would you need longer off in between or longer build periods?

The traditional model of loads of z2 work during the base periods and more higher intersity work during the build periods doesnt work in practise if your limited on time?

I guess im trying to work out a balance between the 2 for a yearly training schedule.

jibberjim

Gav888 wrote:

Not a problem doing that, but surely you cannot do that week after week all year round as it would result in burn out?

What exactly is burn out?

jgsi

"the TCTP is a limited-time offer. You will gain fitness and power rapidly..... but 10 to 12 weeks after you start the program, you'll have to back off and recover. This program can be used 2 or 3 times ina 12 month period..."
quote TTCC: Carmichael , p45.

I think this refers to the possibility of burnout if you just train and train constantly at hi levels?
The TCTP is very much hi octane training is it not?