Do you think Contador is guilty?
victorponf
Posts: 1,187
I think was the meat
I going to became vegan
I going to became vegan
If you like Flandes, Roubaix or Eroica, you would like GP Canal de Castilla, www.gpcanaldecastilla.com
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Where can I get this clenbuterol enhanced meat?
Eat burgers, get thin! I want me some of that.Not climber, not sprinter, not rouleur0 -
Do you mean is he guilty of doping or is he guilty of deliberately doping? Of the first then yes 100%, he had a banned substance in his system and is therefore guilty. On the second I'm not sure his reason sounds fairly implausible especially that the only other team member tested apparently ate seperately.0
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They say that just the 3 spaniard ate the stake (broght by Lopez Cerron, ex-rider, ex-director (Zor, Amaya in the 80'), and now organizer of Vuelta a Castilla y Leon).
Stake came from Vasque Country, who knows...If you like Flandes, Roubaix or Eroica, you would like GP Canal de Castilla, www.gpcanaldecastilla.com0 -
Sorry if is no new here (i begun tu surf half a hour ago and can't read much)
Contador's scientific expert De Boer details defense
By: Laura WeisloPublished: September 30, 17:08, Updated: September 30, 17:17
Says traces of Clenbuterol demonstrate food contamination
The full report from Alberto Contador's scientific expert, Dr. Douwe de Boer, was made public today by the rider's press officer. In it, De Boer details Contador's test results and provides a long list of examples of Clenbuterol contamination in the general population as a result of food contamination.
Contador announced early on Thursday that he tested positive for the drug on July 21, during the second rest day of the Tour de France. The report gives the concentration of Clenbuterol in the Spaniard's sample as 50 picograms/ml, a value 40 times (not 400 as stated by the UCI) below the value that the laboratory should be able to detect.
De Boer also calls into question the lab's declaring an Adverse Analytical Finding for such a low amount, and argues that 50pg is 180 times less than the amount shown to induce physical effects by the drug.
The report states that Contador showed no traces of the drug on July 19 and 20. After finding 50pg/ml on the 21st, his sample from the next day showed 20pg/ml and then only traces on the following two days.
De Boer is the same expert used by Team RadioShack rider Fuyu Li, who was found positive for Clenbuterol with similar levels to Contador in May.
Clenbuterol, a beta-2 agonist formerly used to treat asthma, is being phased out of human use in favour of safer drugs, but is still used in veterinary applications, especially in livestock, according to the report. Although prohibited in most countries, the drug is used to promote lean muscle growth in livestock, and has been shown to be passed on to humans who consume meat.
"Knowing the history of Clenbuterol intoxications in Spain and knowing the fact that nowadays Clenbuterol can be detected in extremely low amounts, it is obvious that in this particular case the scenario of an accidental intake of Clenbuterol by consumption of meat is extremely likely," the report states.
De Boer lists "a small sample" of human "Clenbuterol intoxication" caused by food sources, including one as recent as 2009 in Guangdong, China, although he points that people can be exposed to the drug at low concentrations without any symptoms.
The World Anti-Doping Agency sets no threshold for declaring a positive for Clenbuterol. It only sets a "Minimum Required Performance Level (MRPL)", De Boer stated. Therefore any amount detected can be turned into an Adverse Analytical Finding.
"Therefore, Adverse Analytical Findings for Clenbuterol may result from concentrations below the MRPL even if such concentrations are far below the MPRL. The reason of course is that Clenbuterol may be abused especially during training periods and if testing is performed after such training periods, that Clenbuterol abuse should still be achievable," he said.
Since Contador showed no traces of the drug prior to July 21, and the first detected level was low, De Boer argues that Contador must have ingested the drug at a level of less than 0.1ng/ml and "it is extremely unlikely that such maximum concentrations resulted in any pharmacological effects," he said.
He suggests that WADA-accredited laboratories should not report Clenbuterol levels which are below 1/10th of the MRPL (ie. 200pg or four-times Contador's level) as a way to avoid excessive doping positives as a result of food contamination.If you like Flandes, Roubaix or Eroica, you would like GP Canal de Castilla, www.gpcanaldecastilla.com0 -
When you fry the meat if it produces lots of water (a expert just say in spanish radio) probably have this clenbuterol. :?:If you like Flandes, Roubaix or Eroica, you would like GP Canal de Castilla, www.gpcanaldecastilla.com0
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There does not seem to be any argument that Clenbuterol was found, the only point of argument therefore is was it taken deliberately?
Science seems to indicate that it wasn't given the levels found. Would those levels give an advantage? Again the science indicates not, therefore no action should be taken.
IN with the U C I rules are levels of drugs found relevant or is it a case of no matter how little you are guilty, isn't this what the passports were supposed to prevent, but again within allowable margins?.
"There are more questions than answers"0 -
Did Contador dope? Yes
Did Contador deliberately ingest clenbuterol? Not sure0 -
that's what he gets for eating halal meat! :roll:
test positive= guilty. I fully expect Alberto to be stripped of his jersey. Sad but true.0 -
The real question: If Contador's name was Lance Armstrong, would you believe he's guilty or innocent?0
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Fastlad wrote:donrhummy wrote:The real question: If Contador's name was Lance Armstrong, would you believe he's guilty or innocent?
No different. Guilty is guilty. But hey, Lance has never tested positive.
Sort of. He did test positive but was able to produce a Therapeutic Use Exemption (TUE) note after the fact that the UCI accepted.0 -
Guilty as sin, please, how can you guys swallow this bullsh*t0
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victorponf wrote:I think was the meat
I going to became vegan
I blame his mate El Pueblo for supplying top-quality super-powered clen infested horse bull meat juice in the middle of the night - a very plausible excuse 0 -
This is going to be an interesting case.
He certainly tested positive of a banned substance regardless of the level found.
The UCI rules state that each rider is resposible for everything they put into thier body, that includes food of course, in other words Contador has no excuses, he tested positive.
What do you think the punishment should be, should he be stripped of his latest tour win? or just recieve a slapped wrist?
TS0 -
Can't beat the meat!0
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this amount didnt help him win the tour
but the shit he took which this stuff is concealing did!Crafted in Italy apparantly0 -
It's a rum 'un....
the dose bit troubles me, as it seems so low as to be pointless. Why would he risk capture, for such a ween teeny bit?!0 -
& I find it hilarious that anyone suggests that WADA/UCI/local anti doping authorities are remotely parallel to meat hygiene agencies.RichN95 wrote:Stuey01 wrote:Where can I get this clenbuterol enhanced meat?
Any supermarket probably.
I find it hilarious that cycling fans think that just because a drug is banned in farming by the EU, that means no-one uses it.
It's even more hilarious that the no-one seems to notice that the idea of "any supermarket" might lead to one or two more positives...
Sorry, but the idea of "contaminated meat" in this manner being commonplace is simply absurd.
EU meat is nasty & messed up in many, many ways. Steroids prob isn't one of them. If you want to look at contamination & the bias towards "cheating," in the meat industry, it's already allowed for in the rules: you don't have to cheat. 100% meat anyone?!?
C'mon, I know facts aren't all that much fun in this discussion, but this one's beyond that....
(Sorry, Rich, nothing personal, but there are lots of posts with a similar vein, I can't answer them all)0 -
Richrd2205 wrote:
& I find it hilarious that anyone suggests that WADA/UCI/local anti doping authorities are remotely parallel to meat hygiene agencies.RichN95 wrote:Stuey01 wrote:Where can I get this clenbuterol enhanced meat?
Any supermarket probably.
I find it hilarious that cycling fans think that just because a drug is banned in farming by the EU, that means no-one uses it.
It's even more hilarious that the no-one seems to notice that the idea of "any supermarket" might lead to one or two more positives...
Sorry, but the idea of "contaminated meat" in this manner being commonplace is simply absurd.
EU meat is nasty & messed up in many, many ways. Steroids prob isn't one of them. If you want to look at contamination & the bias towards "cheating," in the meat industry, it's already allowed for in the rules: you don't have to cheat. 100% meat anyone?!?
C'mon, I know facts aren't all that much fun in this discussion, but this one's beyond that....
(Sorry, Rich, nothing personal, but there are lots of posts with a similar vein, I can't answer them all)
I think you may have missed my point. I'll re-iterate it. (and I wasn't responding to one of your posts anyway)
To some:
Drugs banned in cattle farming = absolutely no drugs in cattle farming
Therefore, by the same logic, it follows
Drugs banned in cycling = absolutely no drugs in cycling
That's a hilarious standpoint, right?
OK, my 'any supermarket', comment was probably over the top, but do you know the source of your meat?Twitter: @RichN950 -
I know you weren't responding to one of my posts (I hadn't made any: that gave me the clueRichN95 wrote:
I think you may have missed my point. I'll re-iterate it. (and I wasn't responding to one of your posts anyway)
To some:
Drugs banned in cattle farming = absolutely no drugs in cattle farming
Therefore, by the same logic, it follows
Drugs banned in cycling = absolutely no drugs in cycling
That's a hilarious standpoint, right?
OK, my 'any supermarket', comment was probably over the top, but do you know the source of your meat?
). I think, however, I got your point but you missed mine....
I accept your analogy without question. Yes, it would be hilarious if there wasn't a gaping hole in the logic (well, actually, one of the implicit premises is utterly wrong), which I tried to point out to you....
The idea that drug testing in cycling is analogous to drug testing in cattle is absurd.
The idea that you need to break to break the rules to make a fortune in beef production is absurd.
The idea that there is any parallel at all in the risk/reward ration of "cheating" in the two areas is absurd.
The 100% meat reference was really just a starting point if you want to look at contamination that's allowed.... (IIRC, "pure" meat would be 106% meat).
If you were suggesting that contamination is possible, then, obviously, yes, however, it is vanishingly unlikely...
I know the source of my meat, yes, I'm vegan, so it's from nowhere. I am, however, qualified, as a meat inspector (don't ask, it's a long story). Anyone who doesn't know their butcher & the farmer they get their meat from is a fool. The industry is shot to hell in all sorts of ways, but Clen contamination likely? Not at all...0 -
If a meat inspector says it smells, it smells!
I'm swinging back to guilty!0 -
There is no need for discussion on this, just pop along to cycle chat where the effing know all Flying Monkey will explain everything even though he knows fruck all abour fruckall.0
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Richrd2205 wrote:I know you weren't responding to one of my posts (I hadn't made any: that gave me the clue ). I think, however, I got your point but you missed mine....
I accept your analogy without question. Yes, it would be hilarious if there wasn't a gaping hole in the logic (well, actually, one of the implicit premises is utterly wrong), which I tried to point out to you....
The idea that drug testing in cycling is analogous to drug testing in cattle is absurd.
The idea that you need to break to break the rules to make a fortune in beef production is absurd.
The idea that there is any parallel at all in the risk/reward ration of "cheating" in the two areas is absurd.
The 100% meat reference was really just a starting point if you want to look at contamination that's allowed.... (IIRC, "pure" meat would be 106% meat).
If you were suggesting that contamination is possible, then, obviously, yes, however, it is vanishingly unlikely...
I know the source of my meat, yes, I'm vegan, so it's from nowhere. I am, however, qualified, as a meat inspector (don't ask, it's a long story). Anyone who doesn't know their butcher & the farmer they get their meat from is a fool. The industry is shot to hell in all sorts of ways, but Clen contamination likely? Not at all...
I buy my meat in Tesco or Sainsburys. Like most others. I don't know the farm it came from. I'm not a fool. I just trust them. But then, no-one drug tests me.
I don't work in agriculture. Do you (even though you may be qualified)? Do you work with the Spanish cattle industry? Let's be honest, neither of us knows what might go on.
The idea that there can't be doping in farming because it's banned and there's testing is daft from any cycling fan.Twitter: @RichN950 -
I simply don't know.
I could though be more convinced of his gulit or innocence if so called doping results could be compared to the general population. If, as he claims his meat was contaminated then I presume a random cross section of people would show similar "contamination" with substances they had unknowingly ingested. Of course I am not suggesting any old person should be subjected to doping tests like athletes. Its just that anyone can have their honesty and integrity questioned and if you are innocent, mere doubt can be devastating and ruin lives.Giant XTC Pro-Carbon
Cove Hustler
Planet X Pro-Carbon0 -
I would like to see them feed meat they have certified as being contaminated to someone - THEN drug test them afterwards for a comparison result. If it was the same, I might lean towards believing this 'whopper' of a story.0
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"I wasn't picking my nose. I was scratching it..."0
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Pokerface wrote:I would like to see them feed meat they have certified as being contaminated to someone - THEN drug test them afterwards for a comparison result. If it was the same, I might lean towards believing this 'whopper' of a story.
Surely, you would want to feed known contaminated meat to someone and then test them, to see if that's consistent with AC's story.
Maybe there are some WADA interns who, as we speak, have been treated to a steak dinner.Twitter: @RichN950
