From fast to trashed in one ride..any ideas why?

turboslave

Hi all,

I'm in need of some help and/or advice regarding my training condition, I am curently coming out of an awful loss of form, and have noticed this is becoming a regular occurance.

Basically it would appear that I am in some kind of training adaptation phase lasting approx an 8 week cycle.

This cycle goes from feeling wasted inc no form, consiting of a high heart rate off the bike with a low heart rate on the bike, heavy legs and trashed after 20 miles of easy riding, at the other end of the cycle I am riding way over what I would say is my current conditioning and am flying, able to dig very deep and maintain big efforts.

It is after this progressive build cycle that things go horribly wrong, I dont believe it is a case of overtraining, there are no other signs until I get back on the bike from the last great session and i'm trashed and it is taking about 3 weeks to get the heart rate back to normal and then a progressive build up of form begins.

The only positive I can take from this is that each peak is greater than the last, however I am concerned over the complete loss of form,, and this is taking up too much valuable training time.

Anyone have any ideas?

Anonymous

I have the same issues. Just have to deal with it!

turboslave

Nap,

Why would you say that, you counting posts......................thought more of you, especially with a coach on board.

Lets hope someone with a bit of experience will be along soon.

Anonymous

turboslave wrote:

Nap,

Why would you say that, you counting posts......................thought more of you, especially with a coach on board.

Lets hope someone with a bit of experience will be along soon.

WTF?

I say it because that's what happens.

It's a known phenomenon.

You can't constantly go up all the time. I have 3 -4 good weeks then a 'bad' one. It just happens. I use the 'bad one' as a recovery week. You can't carry form 365 days a year.

turboslave

Better, but still not the same thing going on.

I agree with your 3-4 week cycle, and in the past that is pretty much what my body has been working to, that is also a sensible periodisation training phase, but I appear to be on an 8 week cycle, my concern is the amount of form I am losing which lasts 3-4 weeks prior to being capable of a 3-4 week build up phase.



Something is not quite right, hence me Q.

ireland57

What are you eating?

ut_och_cykla

Food - lack of right or sufficient food to support training/recovery
Hormones - are you a female?, thyroid
work shift patterns?
Could be overtraining even tho' you don't recognise any symptoms. Poor sleep, raised resting pulse, lack of 'drive' in rest of life.....
If you're very worried about the heart rate symptoms see a doctor!

SBezza

Without knowing what sort of training you are doing, what you are eating, how much sleep and rest you get, how much other stress you have in your life, how this lack form manifests itself etc, how on earth are forum members going to be able to advise you.

I would agree with some of the points made by ut_och_cykla, but without more information it is like pissing in the wind to be honest.

Having bad weeks is not normal, having poor rides with low HR following a block of training rides can be normal, but this should recover with a rest day, or possibly 2 if your recovery is slow. If you are peaking, what are you peaking for?

Toks

turboslave wrote:

Hi all,

I'm in need of some help and/or advice regarding my training condition, I am curently coming out of an awful loss of form, and have noticed this is becoming a regular occurance.

Basically it would appear that I am in some kind of training adaptation phase lasting approx an 8 week cycle.

This cycle goes from feeling wasted inc no form, consiting of a high heart rate off the bike with a low heart rate on the bike, heavy legs and trashed after 20 miles of easy riding, at the other end of the cycle I am riding way over what I would say is my current conditioning and am flying, able to dig very deep and maintain big efforts.

It is after this progressive build cycle that things go horribly wrong, I dont believe it is a case of overtraining, there are no other signs until I get back on the bike from the last great session and i'm trashed and it is taking about 3 weeks to get the heart rate back to normal and then a progressive build up of form begins.

The only positive I can take from this is that each peak is greater than the last, however I am concerned over the complete loss of form,, and this is taking up too much valuable training time.

Anyone have any ideas?

You've given absolutley no ifo on yourself: training history, training hours, training intensity, nutrition, sleep, health etc. Its always gonna be hard to sus things out on an internet forum but you haven't exactly given people much to go on :roll:

turboslave

Hi all, thanks for taking time to reply,

History, male aged 45.

I am returning to cycling after a long break, 6.5 years to be exact and have been riding again for just over a year, in this time I have spent most of it trying to build a good base, steady rides combined with faster group rides 2-3 times per week. Due to my work comitments I regularly miss a week and use this as recovery.
I plan to get back into racing in 2 years time as I am now a vet, this would give me 3 years worth of riding/training to slowly and progressivly build my form.
I eat a fairly balanced diet of carbs protiens vitamins etc and use suppliments in the form of energy drinks bars and gels.
If I have one weakness it is hyradtion, never drink enough fluids and have noticed this on occassional rides.
I have a busy and hectic job and also a young family, however I am fortunate to be able to switch off and most nights I get 7 hrs quality sleep.
I have been cycling for over 25yrs including the break and know only two well about overtraining, I am also pretty good at self annilizing my current state after each ride, but this complete loss of form has got me wondering what I am doing wrong.
As an example I am mainly riding at about 65% of my previous fitness levels prior to the break, on the weeks I peak I am back upto 90-95% then the drop is as low as 20%, surely this variation is too great.

Any ideas/feedback would be welcome.

Bronzie

turboslave wrote:

Due to my work comitments I regularly miss a week and use this as recovery.

I wouldn't call having a complete week off the bike "recovery". I'd call it missing a week's training.

turboslave wrote:

As an example I am mainly riding at about 65% of my previous fitness levels prior to the break, on the weeks I peak I am back upto 90-95% then the drop is as low as 20%, surely this variation is too great.

This is purely subjective presumably? Do you have any power or speed data to back up how you are feeling?

Toks

turboslave wrote:

Hi all, thanks for taking time to reply,

History, male aged 45.

I am returning to cycling after a long break, 6.5 years to be exact and have been riding again for just over a year, in this time I have spent most of it trying to build a good base, steady rides combined with faster group rides 2-3 times per week. Due to my work comitments I regularly miss a week and use this as recovery.


I plan to get back into racing in 2 years time as I am now a vet, this would give me 3 years worth of riding/training to slowly and progressivly build my form.
I eat a fairly balanced diet of carbs protiens vitamins etc and use suppliments in the form of energy drinks bars and gels.
If I have one weakness it is hyradtion, never drink enough fluids and have noticed this on occassional rides.
I have a busy and hectic job and also a young family, however I am fortunate to be able to switch off and most nights I get 7 hrs quality sleep.
I have been cycling for over 25yrs including the break and know only two well about overtraining, I am also pretty good at self annilizing my current state after each ride, but this complete loss of form has got me wondering what I am doing wrong.
As an example I am mainly riding at about 65% of my previous fitness levels prior to the break, on the weeks I peak I am back upto 90-95% then the drop is as low as 20%, surely this variation is too great.

Any ideas/feedback would be welcome.

Hmm still not great!
Roughly how many hours are you riding each week?
How many rides is this?
What is the duration and instensity of the ride?
What are you calling steady?
How are you guaging 65% of previous fitness levels?
Back up to 90-95% of what? Av Power; Av speed; Av heart rate: perceived exertion?

Cleat Eastwood

Seems to me youre riding by numbers. Forget the figures, just ride and listen to your body. heart rates and talk of 65% of previous....can often mask simple solutions like, as has been suggested, not listening to your body and resting up.

Pokerface

Bronzie wrote:

turboslave wrote:

Due to my work comitments I regularly miss a week and use this as recovery.

I wouldn't call having a complete week off the bike "recovery". I'd call it missing a week's training.

+1 - A week of light riding is a recovery week. A week of no riding will contribute to a loss of form.

Bronzie

Pokerface wrote:

A week of no riding will contribute to a loss of form.

Not only that, but having a wildly varying training load from week to week normally leaves me feeling all over the place.

turboslave

Hi all,

Thanks again for the words of wisdom, I generally ride to my heart rate, my example of % was very loose to give an idea of where I am in context to where I was and to highlight the difference from peak to trough. I generally ride 6-8hrs per week over 3 sessions, 4hr group ride, 2x 2hr solo ride, generally on feel, could be steady, sometimes hard fast ride at 80% max hr or intervals.
My current max hr is 177, last year when I came back it was 182 so a drop of 5 beats, I thought the fitter you were the greater the heart rate.
Resting hr varies between 55 - 95, many moons ago my resting hr was 29 but I was 20 years younger.
I have completed several bench tests for comparison from the start of this season until a few weeks ago, over a 3 mile distance I have knocked off over a minute, on a local climb I am using bigger gears and improved by almost 2 minutes, in general riding I have gained 1-2 mph so there have been some gains.
My concerns are not so much when riding by myself, I am able to control the efforts more, however I expected to be riding better on the fast saturday club rides, this is where it seems to be going horribly wrong, the circuit is a 40 mile rolling ride averaging between 17-20pmh ave, my 8 week cycle consists of being dropped for several weeks to hanging on, finishing comfortable then going to attatcking on the climbs and the usual sprint finish, then back having no form for about 3 weeks.

If I can point out that when using my working weeks as recovery, these are actually a few days not the whole week.

Thanks again for your comments.

outofbreath2

turboslave wrote:

Hi all,

My current max hr is 177, last year when I came back it was 182 so a drop of 5 beats, I thought the fitter you were the greater the heart rate.
.

It's the other way around. The fitter you are the lower the rate. This represents the fact that the heart is more efficient at doing it's job and therefore doesn't have do work as hard - simply put. Put another way, you have to work harder to get your heart rate up, getting fitter in the process.

Also, the fitter you are the faster the recovery. That's what I've found anyway.

I think you'd be better off measuring resting heart rate (RHR) as a rough guide to fitness rather than max HR since I think you can only get an accurate one of those readings on a treadmilll in a lab. Measure RHR before you rise in the morning. A RHR of up to 95 indicates you've got a very loud alarm clock, although not beyond the realms of possibility.

Bronzie

turboslave wrote:

My current max hr is 177, last year when I came back it was 182 so a drop of 5 beats, I thought the fitter you were the greater the heart rate.

I doubt your true MHR has changed much if at all. I tend to find it easier (more common) to hit higher heart rates when I'm less fit. When I'm fit I have to go very deep indeed to get near it.

turboslave wrote:

Resting hr varies between 55 - 95

I'm not a medical man but I'd be quite alarmed if my RHR varied as much as that. It might be worth getting checked out by your doctor.

turboslave wrote:

however I expected to be riding better on the fast saturday club rides

Problem with group rides is that they can be harder some weeks than others depending on who turns up, what mood they're in, how strong the wind is and which direction it's blowing. I wouldn't use my perfomance in a group ride as a sole indicator of my fitness level.

ut_och_cykla

I don't see anything taht would seriously contribute to teh scenario you describe and I think (like Bronzie & others) that the heart variation should be checked out by a doctor... maybe nothing , maybe a heart problem. Raised resting pulse suggests something is wrong - overtrained or ill in some way. And a sudden drop of max is also a bit unusual - normally one reckons on a beat per year but many people who keep in shape keep similar maxes for years. Get yourself checked out prperly - not fobbed off by a tired GP either. Your young family will thank you for it

Pokerface

+1 for getting checked if your resting HR varies that much (or if it reaches 95 at rest).


Resting HR usually measured upon waking - before getting out of bed, etc. If your resting HR is 95 under these conditions, then you have a problem - that is very high.

By the same token a resting HR of 29 is quite low (although not unheard of - regardless of age).

outofbreath2

Whilst it's a +1 on getting a checkup, let's not give the OP palpitations unnecessarily - not least because he clearly can't afford them ...... only joking

It's important to differentiate between average and normal. 60-80 beats/min, depending on everything, is average. Anything up to 100 is still normal.

petejuk

I would suggest a check up just to be on the safe side. It sounds like you may be at the early stages of over training even though you may think you're not doing too much. I would ease back entirely over the next four week cycle and lose the group rides initially. For the first week, I would begin with a recovery ride and some endurance rides at slow pace concentrating keeping your heart rate down. Plenty of early nights and good healthy food also.
It seems your physiological condition is out of balance - you are bouncing from good form to an inexplicable dip in form which may indicate a break from the current programme may set things in order.
Just my input- I suffer much in the same way with a constant, formal training program- it seems to overcook my body even if I don't feel like I'm stressing it enough. I have to throw in a few weeks of informal training.

ireland57

I'm betting (and I do NOT bet) on overtraining.

Hanging on in group rides is very hard at times.

The 20 yrs of riding certainly helps muscle memory but in 6.5 years our bodies change a lot, especially from 39 to 45.

I just did 2 months of "overriding" enjoying every minute of the hard but great rides I went on with the mates. August caught up with me. I can still ride well and reasonably quick but cut back from about 16-18 down to 8 rides for August. The one endurance race I did was very average.

I'm back on track now but at the start of August when the tiredness started it came on slowly and I didn't recognise it for a while.

Back off a little with some of it.
Check the heart thing out; it's probably nothing but needs to be cleared.

turboslave

Thanks for the advice all, I did have an ecg last year after some pains but got the all clear, I've been out tonight and everything is back to normal, almost as though the body has reset itself, I was wondering if by chance when on good form I am digging so deep that I am straining and over stressing the body more than its capable of at this stage.

The mind is strong and willing but the long lay off has taken its toll, the only positive I have been able to take from it all is that I am stil capable of digging deep, perhaps as you say I will take another test, good thing about that is the doc used to treat the british common wealth athletes so he knows a bit about sports training, I will also drop the group rides for a while, too many racing boys trying to keep thier form.

Thanks to all for the positives.

TS