Scottish football

Alain Quay

Alas that great oxymoron, the Scottish Premier League, has
started up again. Och, it's so unpredictable. Who will win it?
Hibernian, Hearts, Hamilton, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone,
Inverness, Kilmarnock, Mothwell or maybe St Mirren? :roll:

It's the measure of a country's energy, how they deal with
seemingly intractable issues. In Scotland, where football is king,
they don't qualify for the World Cup, they boo the visiting Lithuanian
team then just defeat them, and its Rangers-Celtic year after year,
but no one ever proposes real change. Is there anything more hopeless?

rick_chasey

The Spanish league?

Or perhaps the Premier league, where only 2 clubs have won it in the last 5 years, and only 3 in the last 15. :roll:

Cleat Eastwood

Perhaps you should make boo-ing the national sport.

pneumatic

It was Liechtenstein, by the way, and, yes, things are pretty bad just now.

It would take 20 years to turn around (starting with the yet unborn players) and involve changes to diet, schooling, cultural attitudes, public amenities, training, investment and a whole lot more pretty fundamental issues.

My boy plays football and he's pretty good. If he had been born in another country, he would be better. In all the years he has been playing for school and local club teams, the SFA have organised two hours of professional training. Last season, they lost ten weeks to snowed in and waterlogged pitches. The nearest indoor football pitch is . . . oh, wait, there aren't any!

However, we give all the responsibility for this situation to some poor sod so completely enmired in the current system that they haven't a hope of changing anything. And then we sack him.

[/rant]

bompington

pneumatic wrote:

It was Liechtenstein, by the way, and, yes, things are pretty bad just now.

It would take 20 years to turn around (starting with the yet unborn players) and involve changes to diet, schooling, cultural attitudes, public amenities, training, investment and a whole lot more pretty fundamental issues.

My boy plays football and he's pretty good. If he had been born in another country, he would be better. In all the years he has been playing for school and local club teams, the SFA have organised two hours of professional training. Last season, they lost ten weeks to snowed in and waterlogged pitches. The nearest indoor football pitch is . . . oh, wait, there aren't any!

However, we give all the responsibility for this situation to some poor sod so completely enmired in the current system that they haven't a hope of changing anything. And then we sack him.

[/rant]

The answer is...in Dundee, unless you're at the south end of the kingdom - SoccerWorld is de rigueur for boys' birthday parties these days.
Whether that will make any difference is doubtful, but at least it tackles one of the issues you (rightly) mention.

And of course Scotland didn't manage to beat Lithuania at all...

eh

Scottish football is .................................... f**king dreadful. How can a country be so bad at its one and only national sport?

Roscobob

Actually we booed the Liechtenstein anthem, not the team.

The only anthem that is ever booed by the Tartan Army is 'God Save The Queen' and Liechtenstein's anthem has exactly the same tune, hence, it was booed.

Sorry to nitpic

Scottish football is pish. Hopefully Sky push through the Old Firm joining the Premiership and the rest of the clubs all having a chance to win the league will rejuvenate the game.

-spider-

The SPL is cr@p.

I follow div 3 (the glorious Queen's Park) and div 1 (the staggies) and have a season ticket for both. Both clubs have excellent coaching schemes and contribute to the development of the sport. Celtic and Rangers just suck Scottish football dry.

BigG67

It is important to separate the different aspects of "Scottish" football before saying what's wrong.

The SPL is a commercial organisation that has no direct reponsibility for the game in it's wider sense and because it has a small commercial catchment (both in size and value) it'll never be able to bring in the revenues to pay to clubs so they can attract top players. So historically powerful clubs with big gate and individual sponsorship revenues will contunue to dominate.

The SFA have a wider range of deliveries to consider than the national team - schools footbal, youth development, facilities, women's football, grassroots support etc etc. And do have some success in these in terms of participate and pathway development. Indeed on facilities there are more being built (BTW I don't go with the "we have crappy weather that's why we don't play great tennis/football/rugby/hockey etc etc" plenty other countries are wet...Hollandfor instance)

For sure we don't perform at the international level we'd like (or used to) but that's both a function of some structural issues in the SFA and their coaching AND because other countries have caught up. Plus other sports have upped their game on recruitment; one of the biggest growths in the last 3 years.....cycling

pneumatic

BigG67 wrote:

It is important to separate the different aspects of "Scottish" football before saying what's wrong.

Fair point: I think the NHS, the education system, the media and, of course, the Scottish people have some responsibilities to discharge here, too.

Culturally, Scottish football is still too much about pies, pints, punches and pish and not enough about participation.

(BTW I don't go with the "we have crappy weather that's why we don't play great tennis/football/rugby/hockey etc etc" plenty other countries are wet...Hollandfor instance)

I didn't mean to suggest that the weather makes us crap; rather that our lack of provision for the weather makes us crap. In northern Europe, it is foolish to rely on scrappy bits of waste ground for your sporting infrastructure. How many square metres of properly drained and/or indoor sports facilities are there per capita in Holland compared to Scotland, I wonder?

daviesee

The SPL and the National team are total crap and getting worse year on year.

Still, at least we have a 2 horse race, not a Chelsea walk-a-thon.

finchy

Roscobob wrote:

Scottish football is pish. Hopefully Sky push through the Old Firm joining the Premiership and the rest of the clubs all having a chance to win the league will rejuvenate the game.

Rangers and Celtic should earn the right to play in the Premier League. They can't just come in and have 2 English clubs kicked out to make way!

Besides, why would they want to do that? Their teams are probably too weak to even compete for UEFA Cup places at the moment. If aren't competing successfully from the off, they won't get into the CL, they'll lose out on all of the CL money, won't be able to attract the best players and end up trapped in the same vicious circle that the English clubs are in.

nwallace

Alain Quay wrote:

Och, it's so unpredictable. Who will win it?
Hibernian, Hearts, Hamilton, Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, St Johnstone,
Inverness, Kilmarnock, Mothwell or maybe St Mirren? :roll:

While in the doubly larger plus a bit more and even more richer we wait with baited breath to see if Stoke City can over haul Blackburn to win the Premier League...

The whole coaching system in Scotland is flawed, but then it's fairly similar to the methods used in England. British Football is altogether miles behind the rest of the world.

Whether or not Ian Cathro's coaching plan works Arabs wait to see, he struggled through his SFA badges because he's expected to play by the SFA's ball, which still assumes that kids have been battering footys around in the street for years.

Aggieboy

johnfinch wrote:

Roscobob wrote:

Scottish football is pish. Hopefully Sky push through the Old Firm joining the Premiership and the rest of the clubs all having a chance to win the league will rejuvenate the game.

Rangers and Celtic should earn the right to play in the Premier League. They can't just come in and have 2 English clubs kicked out to make way!

Besides, why would they want to do that? Their teams are probably too weak to even compete for UEFA Cup places at the moment. If aren't competing successfully from the off, they won't get into the CL, they'll lose out on all of the CL money, won't be able to attract the best players and end up trapped in the same vicious circle that the English clubs are in.

As of next season they won't get CL anyway, unless they qualify through the 3 group matches.

Stoo61

The SPL is boring beyond belief.

While the standard isnt great the same cannot be said about the SFL, especially the first division. (Which we are currently top of) Anyone out of about 5 or 6 teams could win it and its usually tight right to the end.

However, you can say what you like about Scottish Football but you don't choose your football team....unless your a glory hunting basturt like 60% of Scotlands population. :roll:

Aggieboy

Stoo61 wrote:

The SPL is boring beyond belief.

While the standard isnt great the same cannot be said about the SFL, especially the first division. (Which we are currently top of) Anyone out of about 5 or 6 teams could win it and its usually tight right to the end.

However, you can say what you like about Scottish Football but you don't choose your football team....unless your a glory hunting basturt like 60% of Scotlands population. :roll:

Man Utd fans?

Stoo61

Auld Firm fans ofcourse. Every small town with provincial clubs is swarming with them, never going to games and not having a clue.

Spender45

The only way I can see that you would get even football leauges (and this would muck up European football) is to have 12 teams in a structure where all the money generated within the game is put in one pot and divided evenly between the teams. Players are "owned" by the structure and are allocated to each team on a "pick me" arrangement with the team who finished last the season before getting first pick.

The status quo is boring and has been since huge money came into the game in the early 90s. I still pay for my season ticket at Aberdeen but it gets harder to part with the money each season. And that's not just because we are dire.

The EPL does nothing for me as I think it is over sanitised. In fact it may be un-PC but football in the old days when you were packed into terracing and stood for the whole game (perhaps a bit drunk), watched some blood & guts footy, could shout what you wanted for 90 mins and knew that you had to be a bit clever and fleet footed not to get involved in a fight or lifted my the feds, provided a bit of edge and excitement to life.

If I wanted a boring sanitised life I could go and watch the cricket.

Roscobob

johnfinch wrote:

Roscobob wrote:

Scottish football is pish. Hopefully Sky push through the Old Firm joining the Premiership and the rest of the clubs all having a chance to win the league will rejuvenate the game.

Rangers and Celtic should earn the right to play in the Premier League. They can't just come in and have 2 English clubs kicked out to make way!

Besides, why would they want to do that? Their teams are probably too weak to even compete for UEFA Cup places at the moment. If aren't competing successfully from the off, they won't get into the CL, they'll lose out on all of the CL money, won't be able to attract the best players and end up trapped in the same vicious circle that the English clubs are in.

The only 2 clubs in Britain that are bigger than Rangers and Celtic are Man U and Liverpool.

Rangers and Celtic have a massive fanbase internationally and the Old Firm derbies have the biggest box office in Britain for definate but I think it might be the world too, I can't remember.

Sky want them in England because the finance the Premier League brings combined with the size of the clubs that they are would improve on an already massive gold chest for the derby games.

This is not to say that I think they should automatically get in but this is the information I have.

Spender45

What is this based on?

verylonglegs

Roscobob wrote:

johnfinch wrote:

Roscobob wrote:

Scottish football is pish. Hopefully Sky push through the Old Firm joining the Premiership and the rest of the clubs all having a chance to win the league will rejuvenate the game.

Rangers and Celtic should earn the right to play in the Premier League. They can't just come in and have 2 English clubs kicked out to make way!

Besides, why would they want to do that? Their teams are probably too weak to even compete for UEFA Cup places at the moment. If aren't competing successfully from the off, they won't get into the CL, they'll lose out on all of the CL money, won't be able to attract the best players and end up trapped in the same vicious circle that the English clubs are in.

The only 2 clubs in Britain that are bigger than Rangers and Celtic are Man U and Liverpool.

Rangers and Celtic have a massive fanbase internationally and the Old Firm derbies have the biggest box office in Britain for definate but I think it might be the world too, I can't remember.

Sky want them in England because the finance the Premier League brings combined with the size of the clubs that they are would improve on an already massive gold chest for the derby games.

This is not to say that I think they should automatically get in but this is the information I have.

I have always agreed with Mr Finch’s argument on this one, they’ve no right to join the EPL unless it’s on merit. There are a host of championship clubs with a long history of being associated with the top division and a few in league one too who would have every right to complain if Rangers and Celtic just dropped in. If you just arrange league members to suit the size of tv audiences then the integrity of the whole league structure is compromised. Mind you, can’t believe I’m talking about modern day professional football and integrity….

Roscobob

Spender45 wrote:

What is this based on?

Contacts within the clubs.

The box office thing was in an article I read about the amount of supporters clubs both sides have in America.

It may not be 100% accurate but it all seems to fit.

The EPL teams would never allow it because both teams would be too much of a threat to them given the massive finances and the players they could attract. IMHO

pneumatic

Cardiff City, Swansea City, Wrexham??

Of course, they don't get European football by being in the English leagues, do they?

I don't think that is just a question of merit, either. I seem to remember there was a risk of a problem when Cardiff got the Cup Final and the EFA were all ready to deny them a place in Europe if they won.

finchy

Roscobob wrote:

The EPL teams would never allow it because both teams would be too much of a threat to them given the massive finances and the players they could attract. IMHO

Yes, but the whole world knows that Celtic and Rangers aren't in a position to compete in the English PL at the moment, and having a large domestic fanbase isn't enough to guarantee success in the modern world. You need to be able to sell large quanitities of replica shirts to Asian fans. The problem for the Old Firm is that if they can't compete straight away, they won't get access to those markets, as those markets are chiefly made up of gloryhunters. So the difference in wealth between the Old Firm and the Big 4 would grow. I can understand why they'd want to be in the PL, because even mid-table mediocrity would be better for them financially than dominating Scottish football.

Sad, isn't it, when discussing the chances of footballing success turns into a conversation about market penetration in the Far East? :roll:

Anyway, I hope Scottish football gets its problems sorted out. If a country like Slovakia can get into the WC with a similar sized population, absolutely freezing cold winters and baking hot summers, football as a joint national sport (with ice hockey) and a shockingly bad domestic league, then I'm sure that Scotland can turn its fortunes around.

Stewie Griffin

Roscobob wrote:

Spender45 wrote:

What is this based on?

Contacts within the clubs.

The box office thing was in an article I read about the amount of supporters clubs both sides have in America.

It may not be 100% accurate but it all seems to fit.

The EPL teams would never allow it because both teams would be too much of a threat to them given the massive finances and the players they could attract. IMHO

Massive finances? Neither are that secure, particularly Celtic. Also I cant see them doing that well in their first year in the Premiership. How many "difficult" games do they play each season now? Hearts and each other, the premiership would wear them down very quickly as they wont be used to the amount of much stronger teams in the division as a whole and therefore playing harder games week in week out. When they then dont qualify for the Europa or CL next year they will be on a slippery slope. Furthermore, the highest scorer in the history of the SPL plays in our second tier, cant be much cop then.

daviesee

Re the old Firm and EPL.

It was never suggested that they go straight in. They were to go into the Championship League. Still can't see the lower tiers going for that either but money talks.

Their standing in the English league would be much higher than it is now. Most clubs main revenue comes from TV and once the Old Firm tap into that they would be able to attract better players on more money and playing in a better league. Therefore thay would do a lot better than current performances would suggest.

I don't think it will happen but football now is ALL about the money and the Old Firm in the EPL would certainly generate that so who knows......

Won't sort Scottish football though.....

Spender45

I can't see that the OF loyal followers would take to being beaten week in week out if they ever were allowed to move to Engish football. Their fan base outside Glasgow is based upon the fact that they win things, the term glory hunters spring to mind. When they don't win their fan base drops considerably. Therefore revenues would drop and the vicious circle would continue.

pneumatic

Of course, Celtic could join the Irish league and Rangers could join the Dutch league.

Then the rest of us could get on with fixing Scottish football.

rick_chasey

pneumatic wrote:

Of course, Celtic could join the Irish league and Rangers could join the Dutch league.

Then the rest of us could get on with fixing Scottish football.

They'd still get rinsed.

Smokin Joe

The biggest opposition to Celtic and Rangers joining the EPL would come from the English police forces, particularly the Met. They don't fancy 1970's style violence on their patch every week of the football season.

And why should any English clubs have to drop down a division just to allow two clubs who are not particularly good to muscle their way in? If the Old Firm want to play in England let them start in the Conference North and work their way up, like everyone else has to.

pneumatic

Smokin Joe wrote:

The biggest opposition to Celtic and Rangers joining the EPL would come from the English police forces, particularly the Met. They don't fancy 1970's style violence on their patch every week of the football season..

Interesting bit of stereotyping there!

By that logic, Liverpool should never be allowed to play any games outside Stanley Park, in case there was another Heysel.

Or, for that matter, Wolves fans stoning the Notts County buses on Wednesday night should mean Wolves never being allowed to play at home again.

I have in mind two images from Euro 92:

1. A Scottish fan kissing a female police officer through the security fence.
2. A group of England fans kicking a Swedish bloke in the head whilst he was already unconscious on the ground.

I could easily make generalisations based on that, but they wouldn't be fair.