whey protein

Team Banana Spokesman

question 1
do you drink whey protein drinks while cycling? some people say it stops muscle damage (isnt this what you want when you are training???) and delays fatigue in the process so I could do higher quality intervals or more intervals before I burn out? kinda like epo

question 2
when I get in the house I will have a hot chocolate made with milk for the proteins.

I do it this way because I add sugar also to make it an energy drink. 40g or more does not dissolve in cold water you see.

can I add whey protein to this too? if it is just amino acids then temperature does not matter yes? no?

Anonymous

1 - No, but there is research suggesting that a small amount of protein is beneficial. When my current batch of ready-mix is done I'm going to try making some in the ratio of 4carbs:1protein...

2 - I don't drink milk after riding at all. In fact I don't have much milk in my diet at all... I have some fruit (either a banana or some raisins) for the carbs and some whey protein made with water...

DaveyL

TBS are you sure you're not Bhima?

Check out this interview with expert sports nutritionist and exercise physiologist Asker Jeukendrup

http://competitorradio.competitor.com/2 ... eukendrup/

They discuss many topics, including the 4:1 carb/protein mix and AJ says the best studies (well-controlled etc) show no benefit to having the protein added. He says that he is not surprised by this as he cannot think of a mechanism whereby the protein could have a beneficial effect over the time course of an event - even an ironman-distance triathlon.

Team Banana Spokesman

DaveyL wrote:

TBS are you sure you're not Bhima?

I need the whey protein because today I ate 7 bananas with 6 jars of peanut butter after doing 3 ftp tests at 120% of ftp. so I could be bhima. I cant be sure.

thanks for the mp3 link. will listen to it later.

Team Banana Spokesman

what do you all make of this?

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... pdate.aspx

Past research has shown that these products increase time to exhaustion, rehydrate athletes more effectively than carbohydrate-only sports drinks, reduce exercise-induced muscle damage, accelerate post-exercise muscle protein and glycogen synthesis and improve performance in a subsequent workout.

drinking inbetween intervals could make my interval session more higher quality/last longer?

DaveyL

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19997018

Anonymous

In that case I won't bother trying the 4:1 mix

Team Banana Spokesman

maybe im readiing it wrong: that study looks at strength lost? (irrelevant in cycling??) and also muscle soreness?

why didnt they just do a 2nd TT in the evening or the next day to see who recovered better?

ive often done pb wattage when my legs feel like sh......

DaveyL

The title of the paper gives you a clue

"No effect of carbohydrate-protein on cycling performance and indices of recovery"

Go ahead and use it if you want though, I don't really have a vested interest in your training so I have no desire to dissuade you further..

jibberjim

DaveyL wrote:

The title of the paper gives you a clue

"No effect of carbohydrate-protein on cycling performance and indices of recovery"

Go ahead and use it if you want though, I don't really have a vested interest in your training so I have no desire to dissuade you further..

Problem with the study is that it's a 1 hour effort, threshold intensity is very different to a 5 hour cycle ride with a variety of efforts which is where other proponents of protein have considered to be an advantage.

A 1 hour maximal effort will be fueled by fat and glycogen.

A 5 hour maximal effort will be fueled by fat, glycogen and amino acids.

That's uncontroversial. What is controversial is if consuming protein during the long effort will provide the amino acids, or if they'll continue to come from muscle catabolism anyway.

bilirubin

I find if I drink protein after a training ride I do not ache the next day, if I don't drink it I do ache, I am getting on a bit now (52) and the old bones cannot take the punisment they used too so protein is a deffo for me.

When I get in I have 1 x scoop of whey protein in a small glass of semi skimmed milk or water with a small meal, sorted.

DaveyL

jibberjim wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

The title of the paper gives you a clue

"No effect of carbohydrate-protein on cycling performance and indices of recovery"

Go ahead and use it if you want though, I don't really have a vested interest in your training so I have no desire to dissuade you further..

Problem with the study is that it's a 1 hour effort, threshold intensity is very different to a 5 hour cycle ride with a variety of efforts which is where other proponents of protein have considered to be an advantage.

A 1 hour maximal effort will be fueled by fat and glycogen.

A 5 hour maximal effort will be fueled by fat, glycogen and amino acids.

That's uncontroversial. What is controversial is if consuming protein during the long effort will provide the amino acids, or if they'll continue to come from muscle catabolism anyway.

This is what Jeukendrup is referring to when he says he cannot think of a mechanism by which the ingested protein could be beneficial during the timescale of even an ironman distance triathlon.

DaveyL

Also note the question in the OP was whether it would help during intervals, and the answer to that would be an unequivocal "no".

jibberjim

DaveyL wrote:

A 5 hour maximal effort will be fueled by fat, glycogen and amino acids.

That's uncontroversial. What is controversial is if consuming protein during the long effort will provide the amino acids, or if they'll continue to come from muscle catabolism anyway.

This is what Jeukendrup is referring to when he says he cannot think of a mechanism by which the ingested protein could be beneficial during the timescale of even an ironman distance triathlon.[/quote]

So what are his reasons for supposing that despite amino acids being taken up and making it into the blood over an 8-17 hour timescale, these amino acids are then not used by the body, but instead it continues with muscle catabolism?

I realise you're not him, but I assume you're going to just swallow what he says 'cos he's an "expert".

DaveyL

jibberjim wrote:

So what are his reasons for supposing that despite amino acids being taken up and making it into the blood over an 8-17 hour timescale, these amino acids are then not used by the body, but instead it continues with muscle catabolism?

I realise you're not him, but I assume you're going to just swallow what he says 'cos he's an "expert".

Does your use of quotation marks indicate that you don't think Jeukendrup is an expert?

On a philosophical note, I would say that if you are going to "swallow" (nice pejorative language there) what someone says, then it is probably a good idea to make sure they are an expert! There comes a point where you have to take someone's word for something, otherwise you just end up assuming nothing a priori and have to work everything out from first principles yourself.

Anyway. Protein. Well, as far as I understand it (but this is from "experts" ) protein is only used as a fuel once glycogen stores are *very* low, and even then they only contribute ~15% of the fuel supply. Furthermore, it is only certain amino acids, such as glutamate and BCAAs, which can be used for fuel.

So, sure, in very long endurance events, you may well get to the point where theoretically, ingested protein will partially fuel exercise - but this would assume (1) you had depleted your glycogen stores and (2) that you are already taking in the maximum amount of carbohydrate you can.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth. Jeukendrup does not go into details in the interview. I'm sure you could have a good discussion with him if you e-mailed him though.

Headhuunter

DaveyL wrote:

jibberjim wrote:

So what are his reasons for supposing that despite amino acids being taken up and making it into the blood over an 8-17 hour timescale, these amino acids are then not used by the body, but instead it continues with muscle catabolism?

I realise you're not him, but I assume you're going to just swallow what he says 'cos he's an "expert".

Does your use of quotation marks indicate that you don't think Jeukendrup is an expert?

On a philosophical note, I would say that if you are going to "swallow" (nice pejorative language there) what someone says, then it is probably a good idea to make sure they are an expert! There comes a point where you have to take someone's word for something, otherwise you just end up assuming nothing a priori and have to work everything out from first principles yourself.

Anyway. Protein. Well, as far as I understand it (but this is from "experts" ) protein is only used as a fuel once glycogen stores are *very* low, and even then they only contribute ~15% of the fuel supply. Furthermore, it is only certain amino acids, such as glutamate and BCAAs, which can be used for fuel.

So, sure, in very long endurance events, you may well get to the point where theoretically, ingested protein will partially fuel exercise - but this would assume (1) you had depleted your glycogen stores and (2) that you are already taking in the maximum amount of carbohydrate you can.

Just my opinion, for what it's worth. Jeukendrup does not go into details in the interview. I'm sure you could have a good discussion with him if you e-mailed him though.

I sometimes add whey protein to my energy drinks for long rides.... Has anyone tried adding BCAAs or glutamate? Any thoughts?

Team Banana Spokesman

Thankyou for clearing the whole thing up.

that interveiw is really good. great to hear people talking about this stuff. Easier to understand when I listen. reading (english) is not my strong point.