Killed a cyclist? Sorry, I fainted...

Pufftmw

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... wheel.html

Comments?

Me, I think she should lose her licence permanently as it could happen again at any time.

lost_in_thought

Pufftmw wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7987374/Range-Rover-driver-killed-cyclist-after-fainting-at-wheel.html

Comments?

Me, I think she should lose her licence permanently as it could happen again at any time.

Completely agree.

My father was killed by a man who had a known heart condition, and had been instructed by doctors not to drive but did anyway. He had a heart attack and came round a blind bend on the wrong side of the road at speed. There was no quarrel made that this man was guilty, whether or not he was conscious at the time, I don't see why the above shoud be any different - if you have consciousness issues, don't drive.

MrChuck

Pufftmw wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/7987374/Range-Rover-driver-killed-cyclist-after-fainting-at-wheel.html

Comments?

Me, I think she should lose her licence permanently as it could happen again at any time.

But anybody can faint at any time can't they?

EDIT: What I mean is that this woman doesn't necessarily have ongoing consciousness issues, and presumably if anyone involved thought she did she would indeed lose her licence.

bails87

Yep. No recklessness or malice on her part I think, but I'm not sure about her safely driving again.

But then it could just be a random faint, they happen, normally in innocuous situations though.

bigmat

Presumably any condition that could compromise your ability to drive should be notified to the DVLA / RTA insurers. I have to update my driving licence every couple of years as I am diabetic. I could technically "faint" at the wheel but because the condition has been well managed I am allowed to drive. If the woman in question had a genuine condition that was properly managed / unidentified at the time of the accident then arguably it is just very bad luck. If she knew of the condition but hadn't reported it / lied about the seriousness of it, throw the book at her.

alan_sherman

Wow - the school run would be quite quiet when Aunt Flo comes to visit if people at risk of fainting stayed off the roads!

Pufftmw

My sister was very mildly epilectic due to a birth problem but she had to surrender her licence just in case. She had to be symptom/incident free for 3 years before she could get her licence back and still takes pills. Unless this woman can say 100% that she will never faint at the wheel again, then she should lose her licence - at least for a simillar period to my sister.

(FWIW my sister is a pants driver anyway & I wish didn't have a licence at all!)

prj45

If this happened like they said it happened then this looks like a genuine accident, which is rare.

If she had had advice not to drive (or had been ordered not to) then you'd expect to see a prosecution, but if this really was a genuine one off faint then can't really see the issue here.

mtb-idle

from the news article

"I just, I swear to each and every one of you, I swear to you, to her husband and her children, to everybody that loves her, I swear to you from the bottom of my heart, on my son's life, I was not in that car, I swear to you."

So she doesn't even believe that she was in the car driving it?

My first thoughts, and actually secod thoughts too are that her and her brief came up with this as a good wheeze to get away with killing someone through carelessness. :x

prj45

Pufftmw wrote:

Unless this woman can say 100% that she will never faint at the wheel again, then she should lose her licence

Nobody could say that, should we all surrender our licenses?

EKE_38BPM

Mr Chuck, when was the last time you fainted for no good reason?

I've fainted once, I gave blood in the afternoon then in the evening I had a couple of beers, went home and ran up and down a flight of stairs. All of those things were factors in the low blood pressure leading to me fainting.

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

bails87

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

Believe it all you want, but I'm guessing you're not a doctor. They're random faints. They happen.

They apparently tested to see if she had any condition that may cause future faints, but didn't find anything. I imagine they'd have done tilt table tests, among other things, to try to induce a faint. If they can't then it suggests that she's 'normal' and it was just an unfortunate freak event.

As for 'not being in the car'. I think she means she wasn't aware of being conscious and in the car when the accident happened, I don't think she was claiming not to have been driving.

Witnesses said the brake lights didn't come on during the whole incident. Even if you were getting something out of the glovebox, on the phone etc, you'd hit the brakes at some point after hitting 2 cyclists, a car, the kerb and a lampost.

MrChuck

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Mr Chuck, when was the last time you fainted for no good reason?

I've fainted once, I gave blood in the afternoon then in the evening I had a couple of beers, went home and ran up and down a flight of stairs. All of those things were factors in the low blood pressure leading to me fainting.

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

I haven't, but I know people who have. And I presume you haven't driven since your faint?

prj45

EKE_38BPM wrote:

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

Sometimes people do faint for no good reason or underlying medical issues, or even lack of sugar, being drunk etc... they just faint.

TommyEss

The article says that after full cardiological and neurological tests, they found nothing, so doesn't sound like she has a condition to be declared on her licence.

Horrible story though, for all involved.

MrChuck

MTB-Idle wrote:

My first thoughts, and actually secod thoughts too are that her and her brief came up with this as a good wheeze to get away with killing someone through carelessness. :x

And you don't think this came up in court? And if so why do you think it might be that she wasn't done for careless driving?

EKE_38BPM

I haven't given blood since my faint rather than not driving.

Coincidentally, on the news just now there was a piece about Sir Ranaulph Fines (not sure of the spelling) who got 4 points on his licence and a £1000 fine for falling asleep at the wheel, ploughing into another car and causing serious injury to the driver of the other car.

Maybe this woman had just fallen asleep. That would explain the lack of braking. As MTB-Idle says, maybe she came up with this excuse with her brief to explain away having a little nap whillst driving.

And no, I'm not a Doctor, but I've never heard of a healthy person fainting for no reason.

greg66_tri_v2.0

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Mr Chuck, when was the last time you fainted for no good reason?

I've fainted once, I gave blood in the afternoon then in the evening I had a couple of beers, went home and ran up and down a flight of stairs. All of those things were factors in the low blood pressure leading to me fainting.

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

As a matter of interest, are you advised not to drive for a period of time after having given blood, and if so, how long?

TommyEss

EKE_38BPM wrote:

And no, I'm not a Doctor, but I've never heard of a healthy person fainting for no reason.

She (the driver) was on maternity leave at the time - not sure of the dates, but I believe it can take some time post-natal for the body to settle back to normal. Pregnancy's quite traumatic on the body!

*Postulating, not factual*

MrChuck

EKE_38BPM wrote:

And no, I'm not a Doctor, but I've never heard of a healthy person fainting for no reason.

I'm sure there's a reason for every faint that you could pinpoint after it's happened, but surely the point is that it's not neccessarily something you can predict?

EKE_38BPM

Maybe the plausibility of the fainting excuse was increased due to the skill of the brief giving it?


If Shellsuit McChav stands up in court and says "I fink I fainted, ennit?" would he have received the same treatment as Mrs Range Rover-Driver and her brief?

Oh, and let me be the first to congratulate Mr Chuck on his 1000th post which I believe he is composing as I compose this.

attica

MTB-Idle wrote:

from the news article

"I just, I swear to each and every one of you, I swear to you, to her husband and her children, to everybody that loves her, I swear to you from the bottom of my heart, on my son's life, I was not in that car, I swear to you."

So she doesn't even believe that she was in the car driving it?

My first thoughts, and actually secod thoughts too are that her and her brief came up with this as a good wheeze to get away with killing someone through carelessness. :x

I thought that but the witness statement that her first question was "What's happened" does seem to back her case up. Either that or she was capable of thinking very quickly and clearly despite the shock of it all in order to come up with this 'wheeze'.

Horrible events for all concerned

mtb-idle

MrChuck wrote:

And you don't think this came up in court? And if so why do you think it might be that she wasn't done for careless driving?

cos sometimes you win and sometimes you lose.

Big Wib

Greg66 wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Mr Chuck, when was the last time you fainted for no good reason?

I've fainted once, I gave blood in the afternoon then in the evening I had a couple of beers, went home and ran up and down a flight of stairs. All of those things were factors in the low blood pressure leading to me fainting.

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

As a matter of interest, are you advised not to drive for a period of time after having given blood, and if so, how long?

nope, no advice on driving and many people drive to a donor session.

bails87

EKE_38BPM wrote:

And no, I'm not a Doctor, but I've never heard of a healthy person fainting for no reason.

I'm not a doctor either, but I work in that business. It happens fairly regularly, if it happens repeatedly to one person then it will be investigated. But one off faints/syncope are nothing unusual. The body just messes things up occasionally.

EKE_38BPM

I had given blood a few times before and had no ill effects, but I think the sprint up and down the stairs are what did it (and a pint of lager). I can't remember any advice about driving (after donating blood), but I wouldn't drive after donating now and I definitely wouldn't cycle.

MrChuck

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Oh, and let me be the first to congratulate Mr Chuck on his 1000th post which I believe he is composing as I compose this.

Why thank you, I hadn't even noticed!

Anyway, you might well be right about Shellsuit McChav, but that isn't the same as saying that she's guilty.

Like Attica, I don't find the idea that she was quick thinking enough to come up with the dodge, and not brake or steer like you might expect, and have it stand up in court very plausible. Whereas we know that people do faint, and inevitably sometimes it'll happen when they're doing something dangerous, and the jury and the medical experts who were actually there decided that's most likely what happened.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Big Wib wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Mr Chuck, when was the last time you fainted for no good reason?

I've fainted once, I gave blood in the afternoon then in the evening I had a couple of beers, went home and ran up and down a flight of stairs. All of those things were factors in the low blood pressure leading to me fainting.

I believe a healthy person shouldn't faint for no good reason, and if they do, they shouldn't drive.

As a matter of interest, are you advised not to drive for a period of time after having given blood, and if so, how long?

nope, no advice on driving and many people drive to a donor session.

Hmm. That (the absence of advice) doesn't seem terribly sensible.

EKE_38BPM

Greg, don't you know that a few biscuits and some orange cordial sort you right out so that you are OK to drive?

The nutrients in biscuits and cordial are exactly the same as in donated blood.

greg66_tri_v2.0

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Greg, don't you know that a few biscuits and some orange cordial sort you right out so that you are OK to drive?

The nutrients in biscuits and cordial are exactly the same as in donated blood.

Oh. Perhaps we should abandon blood donation and infuse patients with biscuits and cordial...

But the issue is the blood pressure (I speak as someone who has fainted a couple of times from low BP, and can quite often provoke a swimming head when getting up froma prone position quickly). How long does the body take to get the fluid level back up to the full eight pints, I wonder (even if it supplements blood with tissue fluid or water in the short term).

soundninjauk

Greg66 wrote:

EKE_38BPM wrote:

Greg, don't you know that a few biscuits and some orange cordial sort you right out so that you are OK to drive?

The nutrients in biscuits and cordial are exactly the same as in donated blood.

Oh. Perhaps we should abandon blood donation and infuse patients with biscuits and cordial...

But the issue is the blood pressure (I speak as someone who has fainted a couple of times from low BP, and can quite often provoke a swimming head when getting up froma prone position quickly). How long does the body take to get the fluid level back up to the full eight pints, I wonder (even if it supplements blood with tissue fluid or water in the short term).

I've gone light headed once when having blood drawn, but apart from that no ill effects.

Talking about fluid levels though, I go from asleep on on the bike within about 30 - 40 minutes in the morning, without appropriate rehydration generally (apart from a glass of orange juice at breakfast). This is of course something I'd never do if I was heading out on an epic all day mtb session in the Lakes, but when it's only 6 miles to work I do it anyway. Am I making myself more liable to faint?

I've never actually fainted in my life to my recollection though...