Lets have, why do people hate the public sector?
Comments
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please make it stop!0
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DonDaddyD wrote:W1 wrote:Rolf F wrote:W1 wrote:I work on a three month notice period - what sort of job securtiy do I have? Why should the public sector be any different?
Because you work on a 3 month notice period, everyone else should as well? What sort of argument is that? In what way is a society where everyone could be kicked out of their jobs at 3 months notice a good one.
Fine, if you want to work under those conditions, great. Others don't and it is reasonable for them not to.
Don't be a fool - I'm not advocating that. All I'm saying is don't get your knickers in a twist about 12 month contracts which - if you're doing your job properly and efficiently - will be renewed.
You raised the issue of job security and bleated about that being unfair - I'm just pointing out that it rarely exists anywhere. Being asked to be on a 12 month contract actually gives more job securtiy than being subject to 3 months notice!
"Jobs for life" is not a driver of efficiency.
3 months notice is usually good and given out to staff in roles too crucial to the organisation to go unfilled.
A PA will be on one months notice a senior manager will be on three. Given that most NHS staff are on one months notice as is most if not all non-management staff of any organisation, the point you are trying to make is seriously moot.
With 3 months notice as oppose to one, you have infact quite good job security. You have three months to find another job, where as most have one.
So, what's the problem with a 12 month contract then? Gives some employees maybe 11 more months of job securtiy than they currently have....0 -
W1 wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:W1 wrote:
I work on a three month notice period - what sort of job securtiy do I have? Why should the public sector be any different? Because of the union power which makes sacking someone incompetent more trouble than it's worth?
it isn't, 90day notice of redundancy/enforced contract change is pretty standard across the working world - look at Duham police recently - every civilian staff member put on 90 day notice. it's happening already where I work my head of dept has been made redundant in a top down review, it will hapen to me or some my colleagues in January when the axe reaches my level.
our place has even used the 90 day option before to drive through unpopular changes to contracts and working hours, certain uni(s)ons rather than being the big militant beasts you fantasize about are quietly tucked in the bosses pocket not raising anything more than a token peep now and again before sitting quietly on their hands again not getting in the way.
where do you and the other private sector bigots get this nonsense that we're swanning about in solid gold ferraris f**king up all day long exempt from the consequences and enjoying magically different redundancy legislation to the private industry?
I was attending to the objection regarding 12 month contracts on the basis of job security by simply outlining that it's actually not that much of a problem - and is a good way to get rid of dead wood.
I think it was gold plated pensions rather than solid gold ferraris (which would be fairly crap, to be honest).
ah the old gold plated pension chestnut - hasn't there been a lot of furore aboout all of these private sector firms closing their final salary schemes over the last few years - were they not gold plated then? or is it only gold plated if it's for someone whose job sector you deem less worthy?
I will lay you generous odds that the vast majority (i.e. rank and file) of public sector staff will have no final salary scheme either by the time this parliament is out and I'm pretty confident that it will be retrospectively applied to people already in their jobs for some time too.
there is no such thing as job security or a gold plated pension scheme for any of us ordinary people down the pecking order whatever side of the public/private sector divide we sit on any more.0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:
ah the old gold plated pension chestnut - hasn't there been a lot of furore aboout all of these private sector firms closing their final salary schemes over the last few years - were they not gold plated then? or is it only gold plated if it's for someone whose job sector you deem less worthy?
The fundamental difference being that the private sector final salary pensions have been contributed to by the wealth of the private sector companies that the employee works for, not the taxpayer.0 -
shouldbeinbed wrote:W1 wrote:shouldbeinbed wrote:W1 wrote:
I work on a three month notice period - what sort of job securtiy do I have? Why should the public sector be any different? Because of the union power which makes sacking someone incompetent more trouble than it's worth?
it isn't, 90day notice of redundancy/enforced contract change is pretty standard across the working world - look at Duham police recently - every civilian staff member put on 90 day notice. it's happening already where I work my head of dept has been made redundant in a top down review, it will hapen to me or some my colleagues in January when the axe reaches my level.
our place has even used the 90 day option before to drive through unpopular changes to contracts and working hours, certain uni(s)ons rather than being the big militant beasts you fantasize about are quietly tucked in the bosses pocket not raising anything more than a token peep now and again before sitting quietly on their hands again not getting in the way.
where do you and the other private sector bigots get this nonsense that we're swanning about in solid gold ferraris f**king up all day long exempt from the consequences and enjoying magically different redundancy legislation to the private industry?
I was attending to the objection regarding 12 month contracts on the basis of job security by simply outlining that it's actually not that much of a problem - and is a good way to get rid of dead wood.
I think it was gold plated pensions rather than solid gold ferraris (which would be fairly crap, to be honest).
ah the old gold plated pension chestnut - hasn't there been a lot of furore aboout all of these private sector firms closing their final salary schemes over the last few years - were they not gold plated then? or is it only gold plated if it's for someone whose job sector you deem less worthy?
I will lay you generous odds that the vast majority (i.e. rank and file) of public sector staff will have no final salary scheme either by the time this parliament is out and I'm pretty confident that it will be retrospectively applied to people already in their jobs for some time too.
there is no such thing as job security or a gold plated pension scheme for any of us ordinary people down the pecking order whatever side of the public/private sector divide we sit on any more.
You do seem to like to embellish peoples words somewhat - still if you need to use hyperbole to make your point it does make it that much more persuasive....0 -
W1 wrote:So, what's the problem with a 12 month contract then? Gives some employees maybe 11
more months of job securtiy than they currently have....
Well, firstly the two are a completely different aspects of employment.
Notice is the period you must work/serve when leaving an organisation
A contract is the length of your employment.
You could be on a 12 month contract and have either one month or three months notice period at the end of the contract. This means that as the contract ends the employer has to tell you one or three months before the end of the contract that they want you to leave or renew the contract.
As an employee should you find another job you have to work for either one or three months (meaning you can't start the new job for one or three months), depending on your notice period.
Obviously three months notice is more desirable if your employment is about to end, you technically have more time employed to find another job.
As I said most jobs only offer one month notice and senior positions tend to give three months.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:W1 wrote:So, what's the problem with a 12 month contract then? Gives some employees maybe 11
more months of job securtiy than they currently have....
Well, firstly the two are a completely different aspects of employment.
Notice is the period you must work/serve when leaving an organisation
A contract is the length of your employment.
You could be on a 12 month contract and have either one month or three months notice period at the end of the contract. This means that as the contract ends the employer has to tell you one or three months before the end of the contract that they want you to leave or renew the contract.
As an employee should you find another job you have to work for either one or three months (meaning you can't start the new job for one or three months), depending on your notice period.
Obviously three months notice is more desirable if your employment is about to end, you technically have more time employed to find another job.
As I said most jobs only offer one month notice and senior positions tend to give three months.
Typically at the end of a 12 month contract period there is no "notice period". It ends on day 365. End of. Final. Typically you will find out a month or so ahead of the 12 month point.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:W1 wrote:So, what's the problem with a 12 month contract then? Gives some employees maybe 11
more months of job securtiy than they currently have....
Well, firstly the two are a completely different aspects of employment.
Notice is the period you must work/serve when leaving an organisation
A contract is the length of your employment.
You could be on a 12 month contract and have either one month or three months notice period at the end of the contract. This means that as the contract ends the employer has to tell you one or three months before the end of the contract that they want you to leave or renew the contract.
As an employee should you find another job you have to work for either one or three months (meaning you can't start the new job for one or three months), depending on your notice period.
Obviously three months notice is more desirable if your employment is about to end, you technically have more time employed to find another job.
As I said most jobs only offer one month notice and senior positions tend to give three months.
Thanks for the lesson but I can assure you I know the difference between a notice period and a contract period. You're supposing that the contract will carry any notice period at all (which it most likely will do, but by it's definition is otherwise a fixed period).
But you haven't answered the question. A 12 month contract is an incentive to perform.0 -
PBo wrote:please make it stop!
amen0 -
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jimmypippa wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?
I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.
Giant Octopus Eats Sharks at Aquarium
From the National Geographic
Hardly a mega shark..... :P0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Monkeypump wrote:Righto, I think it's a good idea. Therefore it is. Fact. Right?
Only as much as anyone elses opinion. Why should mine be any less?
And to be fair I didn't say that it was a good idea what I said was that for some doing contract work and having a distinct lack of job secruity won't motivate them in fact it will demotivate. Basic GCSE business studies (theories on staff motivation) will teach you that job security is very much a motivator so it takes a certain type of person to do contract work.
Contractors aren't always the best person for the job. When you have (I'm going to use the NHS) staff working with vulnerable people who need to build a rapport with the (lets say) community care worker or psychologist, knowing that person is only going to be there for 12 months may hinder their treatment.
So i think I'll stand by what I've said.
It's not really a good suggestion.
But this is my opinion, you are entitled to yours.
Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs helps us understand behaviour, but isn't necessarily a direct correlation to motivation.
That aside, and using your illustration of your own point, vulnerable patients needn't (and I suspect, in most cases don't) know the employment status of their carers. If that carer is incentivised by the prospect of contract renewal depending directly on their performance, they might do their job better and be in post longer.
I concede that someone working on a contract they know will end may not give a monkeys and behave accordingly. To counter that, an FTE can easily become complacent if they know their job is safe but a pay rise or promotion is unlikely.
Contractors are a perfectly good solution if used appropriately.0 -
lost_in_thought wrote:jimmypippa wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?
I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.
Giant Octopus Eats Sharks at Aquarium
From the National Geographic
Hardly a mega shark..... :P
It didn't work - this thread is now well and truly hijacked by the TUC and the Adam Smith institute.0 -
I am not sure the private sector truly exists any more - because banks are now publicly owned.0
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lost_in_thought wrote:jimmypippa wrote:lost_in_thought wrote:Is that a mega shark fighting a giant octopus?
I don't see how the octopus could ever win that one.
Giant Octopus Eats Sharks at Aquarium
From the National Geographic
Hardly a mega shark..... :P
But the octopus could grab hold of the shark and keep out of the way of the mouth whilst using its beak and teeth on its suckers to attack...
And other octopodes have venom as well...
(There's a CBBC programme called Deadly 60 that my kids watch, and I seem to have found myself learning about octopodes and other cephalopods)0 -
In answer to the original question - the public sector is hated - because it is a burden on powerful taxpayers. Your rank file taxpayer isn't a media mogul, or ediotor of a right wing tabliod - but those with a hefty tax bill generally weild some influence - they resent paying taxes - as they don't many of the public services, they don't use public transport - they can pay private if they get sick. They use the influence to slur the public sector with anecdotal stories in the media....I ll redress the balance here
My bro is in sales, a days work can be a day the races, slurping £90 a bottle champers, & fine dining - he can justify it - because he gets the sales. His wife works as a nurse - they have conflicts about the amount of unpaid hours she puts in.
Sure there waste in public sector - but as much as you are told. Some low paid public sector jobs are damm hard work - check out the £13k that a ward clerk may get, Ive seen them bawled at, humilated in front of other staff, (or sometimes the public)
Its no picnic in the public sector - yes there are some good jobs, but the career structure is very hit and miss. Ive been a public sector manager its very hard, very stressful work.
There are lots of short term contracts in the NHS, some in weeks - a colleague of mine coming to the end of his contract - only found out 3 days before that his contract wouldn't be extended, not because he wasn't good as job, just there was no money to pay him. Ironically he had come from the private sector - and confided in me that he hoped his next job was in the private sector.0 -
Monkeypump wrote:Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs
I can't be the only one who got a little bit of wood at that point. Can I? :oops:Never be tempted to race against a Barclays Cycle Hire bike. If you do, there are only two outcomes. Of these, by far the better is that you now have the scalp of a Boris Bike.0 -
I was talking about this thread to one of my clients yesterday, he has a pretty similar business development/project management role to me and actually came up with some pretty positive insights. What the public sector needs isn't a new tier of management, it needs a good hard corporate troubleshooter, someone like Terry Leahy or Philip Green to go into each vertical and review the entire operation from a business efficiency standpoint. Both have demonstrable experience of achieving sustained growth and cost cutting where necessary, both are powerful figureheads who will likely motivate the indoctrinated majority and scare off the lazy minority, which is a good thing. We're talking a long process of organisational change but I see it as achievable with the right troubleshooters. The only likely barrier is political as the unions and left wing know there will be an inevitable cull of wasteful staff. It's the job the National Audit Office should have been doing, but they too were little more than indoctrinated public sector grey men, so would never put their heads above the parapet.0
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andyrm wrote:I was talking about this thread to one of my clients yesterday, he has a pretty similar business development/project management role to me and actually came up with some pretty positive insights. What the public sector needs isn't a new tier of management, it needs a good hard corporate troubleshooter, someone like Terry Leahy or Philip Green to go into each vertical and review the entire operation from a business efficiency standpoint. Both have demonstrable experience of achieving sustained growth and cost cutting where necessary, both are powerful figureheads who will likely motivate the indoctrinated majority and scare off the lazy minority, which is a good thing. We're talking a long process of organisational change but I see it as achievable with the right troubleshooters. The only likely barrier is political as the unions and left wing know there will be an inevitable cull of wasteful staff. It's the job the National Audit Office should have been doing, but they too were little more than indoctrinated public sector grey men, so would never put their heads above the parapet.
WTF did you set your alarm early to get up, use an internet random business buzzword generator to spew out the above? :shock:
No hang on, you haven't even been to bed have you, you're too busy giving 150% working a 48 hour weekend for the evil private sector
:shock:
edit: I'm up early btw cos at 6.30 I took my wife to the hospital to work a 12.5 hour shift as a neo-natal intensive care nurse. She literally helps save babies lives everyday.....works her ass off and has to put up with hassle from some right dregs of society - who have a disproportionate amount of the severely premature babies. if she f*cks up, not only could she lose her job and nursing registration - she possibly could end up in prison!! So she gives 200% and can barely talk when she finishes her shift, she's so tired.
So stick that up your private sector "we are under so much pressure boohoo, it's so easy in the public sector" jacksie.0 -
Woah there! Talk about a totally disproportionate response....Not once have I said anything degrading the work of nurses so I'm at a bit of a loss as to that response to be honest. Seems to be yet another case of this uber-defensiveness around the public sector as soon as someone asks a question and puts forward a suggestion of how to look at making improvement....and for the record I got up early after a 62 hour week as the builder's going to be here soon to finish the decking. Paid for by the benefits of working really hard in a tough industry.0
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I don't accept the premise of the question, most people I come across don't hate the public sector. It is right-wing politicians that tend to scaremonger and spit out disparaging rhetoric.
Most public servants are very lowly paid and have grim prospects for the next 4 years.
I wonder why they don't hate the private sector, frankly.
I think a better question is about the relationship between the heads of government and the people *they* are supposed to be serving...--
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com0 -
andyrm wrote:Woah there! Talk about a totally disproportionate response....Not once have I said anything degrading the work of nurses so I'm at a bit of a loss as to that response to be honest. Seems to be yet another case of this uber-defensiveness around the public sector as soon as someone asks a question and puts forward a suggestion of how to look at making improvement....and for the record I got up early after a 62 hour week as the builder's going to be here soon to finish the decking. Paid for by the benefits of working really hard in a tough industry.
To be fair, that post of yours was pretty comical though. In ten years or so you'll probably see that for yourself. For now, at least try to hold back on the sweeping generalisations. Surely those private sector heros of yours don't over simplify on a grand scale?Faster than a tent.......0 -
Sorry - thought I'd browsed onto the Daily Mail's website by mistake - don't scare me like this.
Do politicians count as public sector workers?Steve C0 -
+1 sc999cs.
The daily mail would be proud of some of this guff.
The godzuki/jaws/king kong debate was better.0 -
andyrm wrote:The only likely barrier is political as the unions and left wing know there will be an inevitable cull of wasteful staff.
lol, just lol.0 -
i was debating whether to put my two pence worth in as it all seems to be a bit mad in here but decided to anyway
I work in the private sector and have to work bloody hard but i love my job. Ok i do have quite a good sense of job security but i havent had a pay rise in 4 years apart from working hard and moving grades. Im now a deputy manager but the pay is quite appalling for the work and responsibilty i have, especially when the manager is away and i have to run the place.
The reason some may hate the public sector is the way that they can be so called "blazey" with their rules such as sick pay and pay rises etc.
I can have 4 weeks full sick pay per year and lose the first days pay regardless, however people starting at my company now will only recieve ssp. My gf works in the private sector, can have 6 months full sick pay, has a pay rise every year, and earns almost double my wage. She works very hard, works mon - fri has all bank holidays, easter, xmas etc off and is never on call.
My job i could work any day, dont get any extra for bank holidays, on call almost all time to sort problems, work weekends. Yes i could prob get a better paid job in the public sector but im happy and content in my job and progression is available. Also i like the fact that although the company is quite big you tend to know quite a lot of people in the area work wise. I do also find that people want to do the job because their heart is in it and not money focused as the money isnt great.
overall people get annoyed for the points explained above, to be honest i think the public sector is invaluable but you do get people taking liberties, i know of some people who complete abuse sick pay policies. Also some of the people in public sectors will do the job because the money is better and therefore sometimes not be as motivated to do the job to their full potential.
Please note i say some so im trying not to generalise0 -
This thread still going on? I gave up back at about page 12.
Summary
The Public Sector is bad.
The Private Sector is good.
Some people are lazy.
Unions are bad.
Unions are good.
Some people are not lazy.
The Public Sector is good.
The Private Sector is bad.
My dad is bigger than yours.
-Spider-0 -
No my dad is bigger than yours.
And I was 3rd hardest in the infants.0 -
No my dad is bigger than yours.
And I was 3rd hardest in the infants.0
