Report to police or not?

Raphe

Coming into work this morning I saw a man on a bike wobbling through the traffic. He had a small child sitting on the rear rack, holding on to his jacket and another child sitting on the crossbar. I’m pretty sure the kids were both under 5.

The best bit was when he swung out into the path of an oncoming Range Rover when trying to filter to the front of the queue; I think the driver may have pooped her pants.

My colleagues reckon I should report this to the police. Any thoughts from you commuter types?

rf6

Are you able to identify him? If not, I'm not too sure what they could do, unless he rides there every day.

Monkeypump

Yes, definitely.

Is he likely to be on CCTV?

shm_uk

Report it.

Just as dangerous (& illegal) as if his kids weren't wearing a seat belt in a car.

Although there's not a lot the Police can do without a +ve ID ...

Raphe

Don’t think I could identify him and there is no CCTV that I’m aware of. You are right I’ll give the police a call, at least I will have tried to do something.

White Horse

What offence was committed?

The police are interested in catching and prosecuting criminal activity. I'm sure what he was doing was dangerous but unless it breaks a specific law you're probably better off telling social services.

decca234uk

What an idiot. Could be a case of child abuse. If you see it again report it using 999 the children are in danger, you'd be doing them a favour.

Raphe

I called and explained what I saw; they had one other call about the same guy and will investigate.

As for a specific offense I’m not sure, reckless cycling maybe, or some law regarding endangering a child?

PBo

Raphe wrote:

I called and explained what I saw; they had one other call about the same guy and will investigate.

As for a specific offense I’m not sure, reckless cycling maybe, or some law regarding endangering a child?

if anything its probably a child protection issue - but the police are hooked into that system.

Calling 101 would have been my choice......

thelawnet

shm_uk wrote:

Report it.

Just as dangerous (& illegal) as if his kids weren't wearing a seat belt in a car.

Well no that's not true is it. There is a law about seatbelts in cars. No such laws for bikes.

Not sure about the kid on the crossbar, but one on the rack doesn't seem so bad.

Anonymous

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blott9b

thelawnet wrote:

shm_uk wrote:

Report it.

Just as dangerous (& illegal) as if his kids weren't wearing a seat belt in a car.

Well no that's not true is it. There is a law about seatbelts in cars. No such laws for bikes.

Not sure about the kid on the crossbar, but one on the rack doesn't seem so bad.

Er what about
Rule 68 of the highway code
You MUST NOT
carry a passenger unless your cycle has been built or adapted to carry one

Must not in the highway code is about law not advice, so unless they were in a child seat then they were breaking the law

tomb353

to be honest I have done this myself with my kids on the way to their school (one on the crossbar, one on the rack). It is illegal, but lets face it you would see this in holand any day of the week. Ignoring traffic the real problem with it is the kids getting toes caught in the spokes which can be nasty. Main difference I guess is that I did it mostly on the pavement! Turn me in guvner, its a fair cop!

Sounds to me like the guy is a) and experienced cyclist (few people could control a bike like this). b) knows the route and is fed up with being held up by queuing cars & c) is doing what dads do best which is introducing an element of controlled risk into his kids lives and making sure they have fun.

You should hang your head in shame for involving the police in this. Leave the guy alone and mind your own business. :evil:

nwallace

Construction and Use offence, the bike is designed for 1 occupant then you can only have 1 occupant.

There are a number of cars available in the UK with an odd number of seats.
e.g. 4 seater hot hatches, even if you fitted a central lap belt you can't carry 5 occupants as it's registered as a 4 seater.

Other one is 7 seater MPVs, 8 seats makes it a minibus*

*No It's 9 to 19 seats for a minibus.

Probably also an argument for Inconsiderate, careless or even Dangerous cycling.

zanelad

tomb353 wrote:

to be honest I have done this myself with my kids on the way to their school (one on the crossbar, one on the rack). It is illegal, but lets face it you would see this in holand any day of the week. Ignoring traffic the real problem with it is the kids getting toes caught in the spokes which can be nasty. Main difference I guess is that I did it mostly on the pavement! Turn me in guvner, its a fair cop!

Sounds to me like the guy is a) and experienced cyclist (few people could control a bike like this). b) knows the route and is fed up with being held up by queuing cars & c) is doing what dads do best which is introducing an element of controlled risk into his kids lives and making sure they have fun.

You should hang your head in shame for involving the police in this. Leave the guy alone and mind your own business. :evil:

Well said.

I despair at the nation of tell tales we're becoming.

tx14

tomb353 wrote:

to be honest I have done this myself with my kids on the way to their school (one on the crossbar, one on the rack). It is illegal, but lets face it you would see this in holand any day of the week. Ignoring traffic the real problem with it is the kids getting toes caught in the spokes which can be nasty. Main difference I guess is that I did it mostly on the pavement! Turn me in guvner, its a fair cop!

Sounds to me like the guy is a) and experienced cyclist (few people could control a bike like this). b) knows the route and is fed up with being held up by queuing cars & c) is doing what dads do best which is introducing an element of controlled risk into his kids lives and making sure they have fun.

You should hang your head in shame for involving the police in this. Leave the guy alone and mind your own business. :evil:

please tell me this is sarcasm.
in case it's not, i would leave the man alone, but not the kids.

tomb353

for the avoidance of doubt, please also leave his kids alone

thelawnet

blott9b wrote:

thelawnet wrote:

shm_uk wrote:

Report it.

Just as dangerous (& illegal) as if his kids weren't wearing a seat belt in a car.

Well no that's not true is it. There is a law about seatbelts in cars. No such laws for bikes.

Not sure about the kid on the crossbar, but one on the rack doesn't seem so bad.

Er what about
Rule 68 of the highway code
You MUST NOT
carry a passenger unless your cycle has been built or adapted to carry one

Must not in the highway code is about law not advice, so unless they were in a child seat then they were breaking the law

Well it doesn't say that they have to be in a child seat. The law is the Road Traffic Act 1988 s24.

"Not more than one person may be carried on a road on a bicycle not propelled by mechanical power unless it is constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one person."

A rack is an adaptation.

But yes, there is a law, you are right.

tomb353

you could argue that any racks which are designed for the dutch market are engineered to take the weight of an adult, as it is assumed that people will use them in this way.

Do we think BMX pegs count as an adaption too?

mtb-idle

couldn't you have just had a word with him yourself?

tomb353

I think I can safely say that most parents do not appreciate any comments or advice from 3rd parties on what to do / not do with their kids.

There is a theory out there that people, particularly women, are evolutionarily programmed to be critical and interferring in how other people bring up their children. Sort of an inate instinct to watch our for other peoples kids in the village (not hard to see the evolutionary advantage in this). In a modern environment this can cause a lot of mothers acute stress, feeling that they are being judged etc. However most fathers I know seem able to blissfully ignore outside criticism and will happily do what the hell they want bringing up their kids. Neither appreciate comments from strangers.

biondino

If a child is sat on the bars and the rider has to stop abruptly, what stops the child being flung off?

Personally I think you're obscenely irresponsible to risk your children's lives like that (and I tink that teaching them that reckless endangerment is "fun" is just as bad). But what do I know, I don't have kids.

blott9b

thelawnet wrote:

blott9b wrote:

thelawnet wrote:

shm_uk wrote:

Report it.

Just as dangerous (& illegal) as if his kids weren't wearing a seat belt in a car.

Well no that's not true is it. There is a law about seatbelts in cars. No such laws for bikes.

Not sure about the kid on the crossbar, but one on the rack doesn't seem so bad.

Er what about
Rule 68 of the highway code
You MUST NOT
carry a passenger unless your cycle has been built or adapted to carry one

Must not in the highway code is about law not advice, so unless they were in a child seat then they were breaking the law

Well it doesn't say that they have to be in a child seat. The law is the Road Traffic Act 1988 s24.

"Not more than one person may be carried on a road on a bicycle not propelled by mechanical power unless it is constructed or adapted for the carriage of more than one person."

A rack is an adaptation.

But yes, there is a law, you are right.

<pedantry>
but not an adaptation to carry an additional person so still illegal
</penantry>

Raphe

Spotted him again on Friday morning as he tried to pass a dustbin lorry on the left. He was a midge’s baw hair away from getting squashed when the lorry turned left at the lights, he bailed onto the pavement.

Some people stopped and at least one woman was having words with him, he made a kind of flapping mouth gesture with his hand then wobbled off into the traffic.

But no you’re right tomb353 and Zanelad, this guy is obviously a highly experienced cyclist who clearly knows what he’s about. Next time I see someone endangering kids’ lives I’ll put it down to them being introduced to risk and let evolution take its course.

PBo

Raphe wrote:

Spotted him again on Friday morning as he tried to pass a dustbin lorry on the left. He was a midge’s baw hair away from getting squashed when the lorry turned left at the lights, he bailed onto the pavement.

Some people stopped and at least one woman was having words with him, he made a kind of flapping mouth gesture with his hand then wobbled off into the traffic.

But no you’re right tomb353 and Zanelad, this guy is obviously a highly experienced cyclist who clearly knows what he’s about. Next time I see someone endangering kids’ lives I’ll put it down to them being introduced to risk and let evolution take its course.

+1

Last I looked, protecting kids was actually a kind of community responsibility. If this guy was tootling along a cycle path, proper child seats, and had everything control, then fine. If he was under control on quiet roads, even without proper seats, I'd probably give the benefit of the doubt.

But based on the two eyewitness reports above - a 100% hit rate of observing near disasters - it sounds bl00dy irresponsible.

Oh hang on, he's a bloke, and doesn't like interference in how he brings up his kids.

How about this for an epithet on his kids' graves?

"daddy didn't like interfering busybodies"

tomb353

but he isn't actually hurting or injuring his kids is he? All you have is a perception of risk, which he clearly sees as being less than you do. FYI I have no wish for protection of my kids from me to be some sort of community responsibility, and nor does this guy, so but out......

A lot of kids are currently having a pretty miserable childhood because of the cult of overprotection that has developed in the last few years.

PBo

tomb353 wrote:

but he isn't actually hurting or injuring his kids is he? All you have is a perception of risk, which he clearly sees as being less than you do. FYI I have no wish for protection of my kids from me to be some sort of community responsibility, and nor does this guy, so but out......

A lot of kids are currently having a pretty miserable childhood because of the cult of overprotection that has developed in the last few years.

Nothing LIKE the number of kids who have a sh1t childhood because their parents aren't fit and not enough is said or done for them.

Raphe

To be honest I generally would not get involved in other people’s business but this genuinely bothered me and it clearly bothered other people...

• I asked my colleagues, quite a few who have kids and cycle, and all of them said I should report the guy. Some of them were quite annoyed I had not done it straight away.
• When I did call they told me other people had already reported him.
• Other people who spotted him stopped to stare at him, clearly concerned
• One woman actually remonstrated with him

Anyway, right or wrong it’s done now

bigflangesmallsprocket

Erm, he may not have hurt anybody YET, but Raphe stated in his first post that the chap was wobbing, and he's just said that he very nearly had an accident, well, thats how I see the term 'bailed out' being used, which means he made a panic/emergency manoeuvre.

Even the most experienced riders make mistakes, and this chap not only has the traffic to contend with, but also his kids! And what if a motorist makes a mistake; or another cyclist or pedestrian or moped rider comes zipping out of nowhere (not exactly a rare occurence), thats a disaster waiting to happen. Also, some roadusers may well be alarmed and panic when confronted with a cyclist bearing down on them with numerous kids wrapped round said bike, as the description of this fellas riding style suggests he actually is not as expert as he might like to think he is, and he very definitely will have reduced control, especially with children not being secured/seated by safe means.

Tomb, it seems to me that by defending this chap you're trying to defend yourself, riding on the road is a dodgy business at the best of times. On pavements at a sedate pace, I would say this might be a reasonably safe riding method for a confident and skillful rider (though not something I'd like to try myself), but definitely not otherwise. and I don't think I'm being overprotective, I'm all for children learning about independance etc and I think most folks are aware of the concept of controlled risk-taking. I don't see much control here though, more self-indulgence in an adult believing they're invincible and putting their children right in SERIOUS harms way through direct neglect.

I once watched a chap riding a bike, with kids in tow on their own bikes, riding along a busy stretch of road. Without looking behind, he moved right into the middle of the road, then took a right turn, kids following his moves exactly. He didn't check traffic, he didn't signal, he didn't check his kids progress. I would put that chap at about same level of care as this one.

shouldbeinbed

Parents don't like other people to interfere in their kids life/community shoud butt out - Winner of the Gary Glitter childcare award

adaption -how is the crossbar adapted? illegal by the definitions give even if the rack is a grey area.

controlled risk - psychic powers controlling the cars then? or by the sound of it dumb luck with the range rover and an enforced crash with the bin lorry.

no grievance with how he chooses to put himself about on the roads but to force children too - hmmm.

wih kids and bikes, controlled risk is teaching them on grass so they dont hurt as much when they fall off and introducing them to the dangers of the road on their own bikes on quiet roads allowing them to get their own risk perception up.
you sure neither of the kids are going to flinch at a near miss and overbalance themself or the whole contraption, or turn and point at a dog on the pavemet or wave at the funny car with the blue light flashing behind them

hurting the kids - have you SAT on a crossbar? & some of the roads are bad enough on a saddle.

experience doesn't filter big blind spot vehicles, experience doesn't force cars into emergency stopping by randomly pulling out.

bike control and experience on the roads are 2 different things and by doing what he is doing, riding as you describe and making flappy mouth gestures at people, he seems to be an arrogant prick -for the kids sake you need to keep on highlighting this but you're wasting your time until he's arrested or a child is hurt/killed (won't be his fault tho)

rjsterry

shouldbeinbed wrote:

Parents don't like other people to interfere in their kids life/community shoud butt out - Winner of the Gary Glitter childcare award

Quite, we wouldn't want to upset anyone by questioning what they are doing now would we?