Mobiles and cycling

chedabob

yeehaamcgee wrote:

I call bullcrap on the phone driving nonsense. Pretty much everyone used to drive and talk, at least at some point, but the casualties, and especially fatalities were significantly less in total number than those caused by drunk driving, which only a tiny minority of the population has ever been engaged in.

I think what you have there is a typical, textbook perfect, example, of a government funded study, to assist in passing new laws.
Why these laws are passed, is anyone's guess. But I suspect it has something to do with some government body like the accidents agency or whatever it's called, which lobbies to make EVERYTHING safe.
It's similar bodies to them, that are responsible for banning mobile phone use on garage forecourts, even though there is ZERO link between mobile phone use and petrol station fires.

Anonymous

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/aug/0 ... vanvasagar

I remember the chaos on the M3 caused that day. Okay it's not a hands free incident, but this is...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... crash.html

Anonymous

Citation?
Well, the best (most reliable) figures I could find stated that around 3,000 people a year are killed or injured in the UK as a result of drunk driving.
I could find no such figures on mobile phone usage, simply guesstimates.

So, that's a lot of crashes due to drink driving, and a seemingly unknown quantity related to phones.

curiously, on Wikipedia (the, er, not always factual source of information, but still, interesting reading), the following can be found... (relating to US figures)

Driver inattention is estimated to be a factor in between 20 to 50 percent of all police-reported crashes. Driver distraction, a sub-category of inattention, has been estimated to be a contributing factor in 8 to 13 percent of all crashes. Of distraction-related accidents, cell phone use may range from 1.5 to 5 percent of contributing factors

So, taking a worst case scenario of 50% of accidents caused by inattention.
13% Of THAT50 % can be blamed on driver distraction.
5% of that 13% of 50% could be contributed to by cell phones.

That's less than a third of a single percent of accidents being linked to cell phones in the US.

Now this is circumstantial evidence at best, but it shows that there really aren't that many accidents involving phones.

Anonymous

PMSL, from that second article linked to by deadkenny

Around 30 deaths on the roads each year are linked to mobile phone use, but the Royal Society for the Prevention of Accidents (RoSPA) believes this is "just the tip of the iceberg" because so few drivers admit to using mobile phones when they cause crashes.

Tip of the iceberg? Sounds like a very small iceberg. More like a hailstone.

MountainMonster

deadkenny wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

I am certain that using a phone can decrease your concentration. So can changing radio channels, changing cd, smoking, looking for change for the Dartford Crossing/M6/etc.

And that brings it all back to "without due care and consideration" and the original post. Whether it's a mobile or whatever else, if plod thinks you aren't paying attention then he's got every right to slap a fine.

The points are another matter.

And in the car, yes even hands free is a distraction. I know from experience that I'm not paying enough attention to the road when I use it so I try to avoid it. Whether it's banned or not, if you have a smash and it was clear you were distracted you can still get slapped with fines or worse.

And no one has superior skills that enables them to multi-task enough to not be distracted. The confidence people have with it just comes from the fact they have not had an accident yet.

Comparing using a phone with driving whilst drunk (even though not actually backed up by the tests posted above), is ridiculous.

No it isn't. Both impair your ability to concentrate on the road and what is going on around you. Both can and have been proven to cause accidents (fatal). It doesn't just take some study you can scoff at. I have seen the results for myself!

You sir sound like a complete sheeple of the government. If they told you jumping off a bridge is safer now than x thing, would you do it? Sounds to me like you would.

There are a million and 1 things that can impair your concentration much more than talking on a phone while driving a car. Needing a wee and having anyone who you have some form of conversation with in the car are just as bad, but noone says anything about those things.

Yeehaa is perfectly right, it may have been a study that the government says is from reputable sources, but they are only reputable to them because they are following their agenda. The government doesn't care about safe, all it cares about is getting it's money. And if it means screwin the little guy causing noone harm just talking on his phone and paying attention to the ride, then they'll do it.

Stop being a sheep.

Bar Shaker

I seriously think the phone law was brought because some people found it difficult to maintain concentration whilst driving and talking so lobbied that no one should be allowed to do it. These are the same people that campaign for draconian punishment against speeders and cite speed cameras as having done a fantastic job... even though there are no stats to prove this.

There always have been laws regarding driving without due care and attention and these can be used to prosecute motorists for all sorts of errant driving. They should not be used for the persecution of motorists who are quite capable of talking whilst driving. The study listed above which said that hands free use was just as dangerous is a case in point. The government banned holding mobile phones but using hands free was deemed to be going too far. Is the danger from holding the phone (holding anything?) or from having a conversation?

I can suggest some other activities that should result in the driver receiving a ticket for DWODCAA... sitting in the middle lane of a motorway when not overtaking; driving up to a roundabout, coming to a halt and then looking to see if it is clear to proceed; leaving a carpark at night an not putting your lights on - just to name three. By doing either of these acts, you are advertising that you are not paying due care and attention to other road users. That you are doing these things actually shows that you don't even know if there are any other road users.

Only you know if you are unable to drive safely if having a conversation. If you can't do it, either holding a phone or on hands free, then don't do it. But please do not put those of us that do this every day, safely, in the same category as drunk drivers.

chedabob

Bar Shaker wrote:

Only you know if you are unable to drive safely if having a conversation. If you can't do it, either holding a phone or on hands free, then don't do it.

If only it was that simple...

alfablue

Bar Shaker wrote:

Only you know if you are unable to drive safely if having a conversation. If you can't do it, either holding a phone or on hands free, then don't do it. But please do not put those of us that do this every day, safely, in the same category as drunk drivers.

So you know you can do it safely because . . . ? You haven't had an accident yet :roll:

The last people who are able to judge how safe they are is the driver themselves, and those that arrogantly claim they are safe when doing x,y,z when they are driving are the most worrying! :roll: :x

Bar Shaker

alfablue wrote:

The last people who are able to judge how safe they are is the driver themselves, and those that arrogantly claim they are safe when doing x,y,z when they are driving are the most worrying! :roll: :x

Sorry but people who consider that because they are not breaking any laws, they must be totally safe are the most worrying. Those that do 55-60mph down country lanes because that's the speed limit so it must be a safe speed... irrespective of the bends ahead and the cyclists/horse riders that may be around the corner. Those that tailgate other cars because there is no law telling them what distance to keep back, those that think 30mph is OK in residential streets where it is clearly too fast. They are the most worrying.

Those that are unable to decide what is and isn't safe, relying on the government to tell them, they are the drivers who worry me. The nanny state cannot hold your hand all the time and those who are able to assess danger for themselves will always be safer than those that blindly follow the rules.

alfablue

So how do you sort this problem out then? Have two sets of laws, one for brilliant drivers like yourself that allows mobile phone use, and another set for those that can't decide if they are safe? Hmmm. . .

bails87

And what about people who decide what behaviour within the law is safe. It's what I do.

I'm not allowed to drive at over 30 on some roads so I don't. On other roads, the limit is 60, but I stay under 40 because it's narrow with lots of blind bends.

How do you know if you miss things when you're on the phone? How can you possibly know that you haven't seen something? :?

Anonymous

MountainMonster wrote:

You sir sound like a complete sheeple of the government. If they told you jumping off a bridge is safer now than x thing, would you do it? Sounds to me like you would.

Nope. I'm the last person to agree with government lies and statistics. I'm talking from experience and what I've witnessed.

There are a million and 1 things that can impair your concentration much more than talking on a phone while driving a car. Needing a wee and having anyone who you have some form of conversation with in the car are just as bad, but noone says anything about those things.

Does it matter how much more or less of a distraction it is? If you are distracted for a split second you can have a crash. I know, because I've done it (not with a mobile but it could have easily been). Having used a mobile in a car I've been aware often that I'm not paying so much attention to the road, and thought that if 'XYZ' happened then the result could have been bad. I had been lucky that's all. Just because I'm lucky doesn't mean I'm going to carry on regardless.

Get involved in an accident or see emergency services extracting the remains of a person from a crumpled mess of a car caused by inattention/distraction and you'll have a different outlook on driving.

Age has something to do with it too. When I was younger I thought I was indestructible on the roads. So do the vast majority of drivers who are involved in accidents, who are generally under 25. Which is why the insurance is so high for them.

Anyway, it's my choice not to use a mobile when driving or even cycling (though the latter is more just because I'll likely fall off!). No government propaganda has done this. It's experience and near misses.

Bar Shaker

alfablue wrote:

So how do you sort this problem out then? Have two sets of laws, one for brilliant drivers like yourself that allows mobile phone use, and another set for those that can't decide if they are safe? Hmmm. . .

This is the problem with much legislation. It is designed for those least able to process their environment and ends up getting ignored but those more able.

I am no brilliant driver. I understand car control and have done well over 100 track days. I have done the Essex Police week long advanced driver training course, albeit that I am not a Police driver. I have been driving for 30 years and think nothing of driving to the Alps several times a season, or driving to the Med for a long weekend or driving into the west end of London to go to work. I enjoy driving and treat it as something that should be done well or not at all. Motoring laws that treat me as an idiot annoy me.

The point that I am trying to make is that some people are distracted from their driving by by mobile phone conversations, some are not. You can legally make a mobile phone call whilst driving, provided you are not holding the phone equipment. You can legally make such a phone call whilst holding a banana against the side of your head. The same may be true of riding a bike. For some people it is holding the telephone conversation that is the problem, not holding the equipment. By legislating as it has, the government has told people that it is safe for them to drive whilst talking on a hands free system and this may well not be the case.

Only the driver can decide.

Those not able to decide have had the decision made for them. Were the law only that you must not drive without due care and attention, many people may conclude that having any phone conversation whilst driving is dangerous. The law tells them that this is not the case and that, my friends, is where it fails.

cooldad

Re earlier point about having a conversation whilst driving - it's been shown that having a conversation with a passenger is less distracting as the passenger can see what the driver is doing, and the conversation can be broken when the driver needs to concentrate etc. The other person on the phione cannot, so the conversation carries on regardless, whilst the driver's concentration is divided.

As I said earlier "The problem with laws is that many are brought in to prevent morons killing themselves or others.
Use a bit of common sense."

Judging from some of the atitudes here, bit of common sense lacking.

alfablue

I think having any mobile phone conversation whilst driving should be prohibited, whether handheld or hands free. It seems to me that the average driver is a poor one, therefore laws need to relate to this. Whilst there are obviously some excellent drivers out there that might be able to multi-task safely, it is unfortunate that they must be frustrated in order to protect the masses from themselves.

bails87

Bar Shaker wrote:

You can legally make such a phone call whilst holding a banana against the side of your head.

Is that not driving without due care and attention?

Bar Shaker wrote:

By legislating as it has, the government has told people that it is safe for them to drive whilst talking on a hands free system.

Wait, so if the government doesn't specifically ban something, they're saying it's safe?

Were the law only that you must not drive without due care and attention, many people may conclude that having any phone conversation whilst driving is dangerous.

But if they got rid of the specific ban on holding a mobile phone, people would stop using mobile phones while driving?

Make your mind up.

it is holding the telephone conversation that is the problem, not holding the equipment

I'd say it's both. How do you safely turn your wipers, lights or indicators on, or change gear, or go round a roundabout using only one hand?

You might be a good driver. Plenty aren't.

Bar Shaker

Bails you missed the point.

Its like the government legislating that you cannot juggle red balls whilst driving because it is dangerous. The driving public naturally conclude that juggling balls of any other colour must be safe otherwise the colour would not have been mentioned.

In what we are talking about, the equipment used to make the call has little effect on the safety of my driving. Fair enough, my car is an automatic, with sensors for everything from lights, to rain, to whatever. Driving my first car, a Mini Cooper, would have been different. But by telling me one method is dangerous and, if I want make calls it must be with such and such equipment, the safety decision is taken away from the driver and the safety benefit is lost. I'm not saying anyone here would make a call in a dangerous manner, but plenty do and the law, as written, enshrines their right to do this.

We were talking about whether or not talking on the phone whilst cycling is dangerous. The simple answer is 'it can be'. The answer will depend on the cyclist, the circumstances and the environment. Being threatened by plod for doing so, if clearly it was not dangerous, this just diminishes plod's image in the eyes of the public.

I have a phone holder on my mtb for using the phone GPS. I have had hands free calls and it hasn't affected my riding. My panting may have affected the call quality. In the case of the OP, I suspect the copper over reacted to make his point and instead made an arse of himself. A simple conversation asking the cyclist to consider his actions would have worked much better, leaving him to remember that conversation when deciding on the safety of accepting a call or not in the future.

bails87

Bar Shaker
Fair enough, I agree with most of that.


I still don't think you can safely negotiate a junction whilst on the phone though.

Edit: Not you personally, just drivers in general (myself included).

Anonymous

I've seen Jackie Stewart slide a car round a junction, whilst casually reaching down to change a tape on the radio

Anonymous

bails87 wrote:

You might be a good driver. Plenty aren't.

Good drivers can make mistakes or be distracted. As much as some like to claim they can hold a conversation without distraction, it only takes a second to miss something.

I recall something on the TV recently where a supposedly good driver was given tests in a simulator, with and without holding conversations on a phone. With the conversations the driver was making mistakes.

Personally no matter how good I may like to think I am, I don't have a superiority complex that makes me believe I'm a perfect driver. I don't believe there is such a thing as a perfect driver.

Anonymous

im a much better driver with a drink in me, i can corner harder, brake later and accelerate much more aggressively i think the rules should allow you to be shyters when driving.

seriously. i really mean it.

biff55

wow , this threads' got all anal in a hurry.
shame that no meaning advice has been offered to the OP for the last 2 pages.

Anonymous

he got all the info he needed in the first page. If he needs more than that, there's a new advice thread.

Bar Shaker

yeehaamcgee wrote:

I've seen Jackie Stewart slide a car round a junction, whilst casually reaching down to change a tape on the radio

That would have been an Eight Track. They were easy to change. The biggest danger was getting a tape under the peddles.

Anonymous

Was it an eight track? I'm almost certain it was a cassette. It was on a television documentary, and he was really getting on a bit.

He'd done it years ago to some journalist, apparently. so in this documentary, they recreated the stunt

drkawaszelong

i know this was ages ago, but what was the result of this?

TOMathon

yeehaamcgee wrote:

I call bullcrap on the phone driving nonsense. Pretty much everyone used to drive and talk, at least at some point, but the casualties, and especially fatalities were significantly less in total number than those caused by drunk driving, which only a tiny minority of the population has ever been engaged in.

I think what you have there is a typical, textbook perfect, example, of a government funded study, to assist in passing new laws.
Why these laws are passed, is anyone's guess. But I suspect it has something to do with some government body like the accidents agency or whatever it's called, which lobbies to make EVERYTHING safe.
It's similar bodies to them, that are responsible for banning mobile phone use on garage forecourts, even though there is ZERO link between mobile phone use and petrol station fires.

Bullcrap seconded on yehaamcgee's post. Again, lacking definitive citations, but common sense.

Firstly, are you sure that everyone used to drive and talk? Or was this in the days of not only much lower phone ownership, but much lower phone use? Nowadays, people own more, more complex phones and they use them more. Phones are now no longer stuffed in gloveboxes for emergencies, but sit prominently on dashboards, beckoning to be fondled, fiddled with, all to make a quick call.

Also, there IS a link between mobile phone use and petrol station fires. Small, granted, but surely you can resist tweeting and texting for a few minutes to save yourself from a massive explosion?

This guy couldn't, at 1:20 he checks his mobile.

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/06/dont-inspect-a-fuel-tanker-with-a-lighter-if-you-dont-want-to-catch-on-fire/

CraigXXL

I have no problems with hands free telephone usage in cars or on bikes as we all have conversations in cars or on bikes without problems. People who hold their phones whilst talking or worse texting should be punished as the law dictates.
I gave up riding motorbikes on the road due to the amount of times drivers using their phones cut me up or changed lanes. Many wing mirrors have been lost but it wasn't worth the risk any longer.
To the original OP if you'd been cycling, holding your phone and cut me up as result of your lack of controI I would have rammed the phone so far up your backside it would have become handsfree. Law or not, common sense previals otherwise a law will be created to protect idiots from themselves and to protect others from your stupidity.

Anonymous

Oh dear. Not this thread again! :shock:

Steve_F

Haven't read through the data for the tests re mobile use vs drink driving but is it not a test against someone pretty close to the legal limit? ie a pint and a half or so?

Not really fair to class drink driving as safer if it's at the lower levels, double the amount of alcohol and there's no way the stats show drinking is safer than talking on a mobile.

Definitely agree that speaking on a mobile can be ok but given a pressure situation, like someone giving you directions when you're on a tight deadline it can be all to easy to cruise straight through a red light....

On the texting argument, I blame the phone makers for making that dangerous, it used to be soooo easy to type up a text without looking at the phone but it's nearly impossible on the iPhone! Never done this driving of course.

Back to the OP - obviously the police officer was in the wrong threatening to endorse your licence but they caught you doing something they thought was dangerous, act like a grownup and deal with it even if you don't agree. Threatening to report him for pulling you up for something that someone else deemed as dangerous is like a child crying cause they got told off.

I think the police should be taking a lot more interest in the cyclists who are doing stupid things like no lights and dark clothes at night. Can see the headlines after some 'poor little angel' gets knocked off their bike as the driver really couldn't see them until too late and we all lay into the demon driver. I am not including talking on the phone in this category - just pointing out that cyclists get away with pretty much anything on the roads....