Ullrich burnt out

rick_chasey · August 2010

Ulle's suffering from 'burnt-out' syndrome. He was diagnosed a few days ago.

afx237vi · August 2010

The timing of Ullrich’s announcement today coincides with a ruling against him by a German court in relation to a dispute with anti-doping campaigner Werner Franke. The Hamburg state court has dismissed a suit by the rider, who was trying to stop Franke from making claims that he had paid €35,000 to Fuentes for doping. Ullrich denied doping under oath and could in theory face perjury charges.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/5249/ ... drome.aspx

I wonder if Rudy's finished writing that book yet.

Le Commentateur · August 2010

"Withdaws from public life" – is that like going into hiding?

DaveyL · August 2010

Maybe what he's really suffering from is what Landis was suffering from. If so, he will continue to do so until he unburdens himself.

dave_1 · August 2010

DaveyL wrote:

Maybe what he's really suffering from is what Landis was suffering from. If so, he will continue to do so until he unburdens himself.

he made a comment that if people couldn't add 1 + 1 to realise what was going on in the sport they were beyond his help. An admission of massive amounts of doping I guess. I hope Ulle gets better, whatever it is he's suffering with. The guy is a legend. I don't care if he doped.

DaveyL · August 2010

Dave_1 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Maybe what he's really suffering from is what Landis was suffering from. If so, he will continue to do so until he unburdens himself.

he made a comment that if people couldn't add 1 + 1 to realise what was going on in the sport they were beyond his help. An admission of massive amounts of doping I guess. I hope Ulle gets better, whatever it is he's suffering with. The guy is a legend. I don't care if he doped.

It's not really an admission though, is it? It's a half-arsed attempt at him saying, "Yeah, I was at it, and so was everyone else." He would, I bet, feel a lot better if he came out and said, "Here's what I did, here's how I did it, Ithis is what I took, here's who helped me, etc.". The whole deal.

dave_1 · August 2010

DaveyL wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Maybe what he's really suffering from is what Landis was suffering from. If so, he will continue to do so until he unburdens himself.

he made a comment that if people couldn't add 1 + 1 to realise what was going on in the sport they were beyond his help. An admission of massive amounts of doping I guess. I hope Ulle gets better, whatever it is he's suffering with. The guy is a legend. I don't care if he doped.

It's not really an admission though, is it? It's a half-arsed attempt at him saying, "Yeah, I was at it, and so was everyone else." He would, I bet, feel a lot better if he came out and said, "Here's what I did, here's how I did it, Ithis is what I took, here's who helped me, etc.". The whole deal.

but EPO was totally accepted and widely used when he came into the pro ranks, so it's a liitle mitigating. He was in the wrong place, wrong time as much as he was a cheater, hence my tempered attitude re his 1997 win, his talent

Matchstick Man · August 2010

Dave_1 wrote:

[He was in the wrong place, wrong time as much as he was a cheater, hence my tempered attitude re his 1997 win, his talent

I believe that he was up there with Fignon, Lemond and Andy Shleck as guys who were born to be Tour champs as they all exhibited phenomenal performances in their first Tours. To come in as 21/22 year olds and be on the podium at your first attempt is what makes them out as grand champions. Which is why I feel sorry for A Schleck being on Bjarne's team as much as I feel for Ullrich coming into Telekom - peer pressure to do what everyone does when natural talent suggests otherwise

DaveyL · August 2010

Matchstick Man wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

[He was in the wrong place, wrong time as much as he was a cheater, hence my tempered attitude re his 1997 win, his talent

I believe that he was up there with Fignon, Lemond and Andy Shleck as guys who were born to be Tour champs as they all exhibited phenomenal performances in their first Tours. To come in as 21/22 year olds and be on the podium at your first attempt is what makes them out as grand champions. Which is why I feel sorry for A Schleck being on Bjarne's team as much as I feel for Ullrich coming into Telekom - peer pressure to do what everyone does when natural talent suggests otherwise

You mean Ullrich's "natural talent" in 1996, when his team-mate's crit was up in the 60s?

DaveyL · August 2010

Dave_1 wrote:

but EPO was totally accepted and widely used when he came into the pro ranks

Absolutely, Dave. It didn't seem wrong to those guys back then. It was like an arms race, and they were so enveloped in their world they didn't realise it was wrong.

But now, there is much more of a stigma associated with doping, and he is now far removed from that world. I wouldn't be surprised if he is having trouble with it *now*.

I'm not saying that he is, just that it wouldn't surprise me if this is at the root of it. Or is at least nagging at him.

rick_chasey · August 2010

I'd imagine for athletes or ex athletes, who, by their very nature have a lot energy, this kind of syndrome can be quite tough.

dave_1 · August 2010

DaveyL wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

but EPO was totally accepted and widely used when he came into the pro ranks

Absolutely, Dave. It didn't seem wrong to those guys back then. It was like an arms race, and they were so enveloped in their world they didn't realise it was wrong.

But now, there is much more of a stigma associated with doping, and he is now far removed from that world. I wouldn't be surprised if he is having trouble with it *now*.

I'm not saying that he is, just that it wouldn't surprise me if this is at the root of it. Or is at least nagging at him.

I agree. He seemed to go down the drink and recreational drugs road when times got hard in 2002, so hope he's not falling into that, given he probably has a massive amount he's not saying, trying not to say. If the courts take his wealth off him, one would think he'll talk. And Ullrich was a likeable guy as well, never talked tough or arrogant, just got on with it. His tourmalet attack, though judged silly in today processional formulaic racing culture, was pretty cool. He tried to eliminate team mate type stuff and take it mano a mano with LA. I think if he'd come into the ranks today with things being clamped down on a bit more now he'd still ahve been good..nowadays riders threatening to leave teams if certain riders being signed, TDF winners demanding contract opt out clauses if a rider on their team fails a dope test pre-tour, bio passport and testers willing to argue the toss with riders and their lawyers...it's changed days.

mrushton · August 2010

Am I missing something here? This reads like an Ullrich love-fest. Poor Ullrich, he had to take drugs, everyone else was doing it, it was the pressure. Armstrong (who hasn't burnt out) gets pages slagging him off. How he was the Devil Incarnate and took special NASA drugs to achieve what he did. Ullrich was a product of the East German gymnasia who had drug development in combination with brutal training down to a fine art. Granted he was talented but he came at a time when LA was more 'talented' and Ullrich buckled under the weight of expectation. Let's not shed tears over him. He was as guilty as any of the hate figures on these forums altho'he did look fantastic on a bike. I was stood near him at a stage of the Giro in 2007 and he looked powerful (not fat, not big but powerful). If he has some mental issues then I hope he gets over them and can resume his life. Shame he has to go thro' this stuff when someone like Ricco just takes the pi55 out of cycling and still gets the oxygen of publicity

andyp · August 2010

mrushton wrote:

Am I missing something here? This reads like an Ullrich love-fest. Poor Ullrich, he had to take drugs, everyone else was doing it, it was the pressure. Armstrong (who hasn't burnt out) gets pages slagging him off. How he was the Devil Incarnate and took special NASA drugs to achieve what he did. Ullrich was a product of the East German gymnasia who had drug development in combination with brutal training down to a fine art. Granted he was talented but he came at a time when LA was more 'talented' and Ullrich buckled under the weight of expectation. Let's not shed tears over him. He was as guilty as any of the hate figures on these forums altho'he did look fantastic on a bike. I was stood near him at a stage of the Giro in 2007 and he looked powerful (not fat, not big but powerful). If he has some mental issues then I hope he gets over them and can resume his life. Shame he has to go thro' this stuff when someone like Ricco just takes the pi55 out of cycling and still gets the oxygen of publicity

No you're not missing something. I agree.

tlw1 · August 2010

andyp wrote:

mrushton wrote:

Am I missing something here? This reads like an Ullrich love-fest. Poor Ullrich, he had to take drugs, everyone else was doing it, it was the pressure. Armstrong (who hasn't burnt out) gets pages slagging him off. How he was the Devil Incarnate and took special NASA drugs to achieve what he did. Ullrich was a product of the East German gymnasia who had drug development in combination with brutal training down to a fine art. Granted he was talented but he came at a time when LA was more 'talented' and Ullrich buckled under the weight of expectation. Let's not shed tears over him. He was as guilty as any of the hate figures on these forums altho'he did look fantastic on a bike. I was stood near him at a stage of the Giro in 2007 and he looked powerful (not fat, not big but powerful). If he has some mental issues then I hope he gets over them and can resume his life. Shame he has to go thro' this stuff when someone like Ricco just takes the pi55 out of cycling and still gets the oxygen of publicity

No you're not missing something. I agree.

me too

secretsqirrel · August 2010

He may well wish to 'unburden' himself. What I suspect would stop him, is implicating friends, and contemporaries who are still making a living in the sport. Also the impact this would have on his young family.

Not a nice place to be. I can only imagine the stress he is suffering.

RichN95. · August 2010

mrushton wrote:

Am I missing something here? This reads like an Ullrich love-fest. Poor Ullrich, he had to take drugs, everyone else was doing it, it was the pressure. Armstrong (who hasn't burnt out) gets pages slagging him off. How he was the Devil Incarnate and took special NASA drugs to achieve what he did. Ullrich was a product of the East German gymnasia who had drug development in combination with brutal training down to a fine art. Granted he was talented but he came at a time when LA was more 'talented' and Ullrich buckled under the weight of expectation. Let's not shed tears over him. He was as guilty as any of the hate figures on these forums altho'he did look fantastic on a bike. I was stood near him at a stage of the Giro in 2007 and he looked powerful (not fat, not big but powerful). If he has some mental issues then I hope he gets over them and can resume his life. Shame he has to go thro' this stuff when someone like Ricco just takes the pi55 out of cycling and still gets the oxygen of publicity

Generally, I agree with you. But, because he came through the East German sports system, he was probably exposed to doping at a young and impressionable age and any morality connected to doping would have long been eroded (if it ever existed). If you've been told for as long as you've been in the sport that doping isn't cheating, it can be hard to come to terms with the idea that it is.

DaveyL · August 2010

Agree with all of the posts from mrushton onwards. In general, this is what a grown-up discussing of doping looks like. Others take note...

rick_chasey · August 2010

Not that I should be helping generate traffic for this kind of journalism, but...

http://www.hln.be/hln/nl/1297/Doping-In ... -out.dhtml

Decidedly unfortunate pictures of Ullrich chosen by the journos in this one, especially the one where he's wiping his nose.

BikingBernie · August 2010

mrushton wrote:

Am I missing something here? This reads like an Ullrich love-fest. Poor Ullrich, he had to take drugs, everyone else was doing it, it was the pressure. Armstrong (who hasn't burnt out) gets pages slagging him off.

Yes, you are missing something. The names Bassons and Simeoni, plus the signature at the bottom of this post will give you a few clues.

Also, as far as I know, Ullrich has not fed and exploited anti-French xenophobia in order to defend his position. Nor has he cynically exploited the desire of cancer victims to believe in 'miracles' in order to protect himself from criticism and to generate profits for himself. (As Armstrong has with livestrong.com and endless endorsement deals that play on the 'inspiration' he supposedly gives to cancer sufferers. Inspiration that, in reality, is based on the 'biggest fraud in the history of cycling').

Reasons to Associate Your Brand With LIVESTRONG.COM

Over 70 million wristbands sold worldwide

Lance Armstrong's global awareness is 79 percent*

59 percent of adults 18 to 39 are familiar with the LIVESTRONGSM brand.*

80 percent of the people familiar with the LIVESTRONGSM brand associate it with inspiration.*

Advertising Opportunities.

1. Site and Category Takeovers.

2. Email Newsletter and Advertorials

3. Original Article and Video Sponsorship

4. Widget Sponsorship

5. Profile and Behavioural Targeting

http://mediakit.livestrong.com/

"In the beginning we had this brand of brash Texan, interesting European sport, a phenomenon. Then you layered in cancer survivor, which broadened and deepened the brand." Bill Stapelton.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/2001-07-01/feature4.php

RichN95. · August 2010

Any thoughts on Ullrich BB? Or any other doper not from America? Such a blinkered obsession isn't good for the mind or objectivity.

BikingBernie · August 2010

RichN95 wrote:

Any thoughts on Ullrich BB? Or any other doper not from America? Such a blinkered obsession isn't good for the mind or objectivity.

Mmmm, another ad hominem attack, rather than an attempt to address the points I raise. :roll:

Perhaps you missed the comments I made just a few days ago regarding Indurain. I have also passed unfavourable comments about Millar's criticism of Landis and questioned whether Wiggin's was really clean in last year's Tour. (Suspicions raised by the conflicting accounts he gave of his weight loss programme). Not doping related but I have been very critical of Cavendish as well. So, not so much of a 'blinkered obsession' after all...

DaveyL · August 2010

Yeah, only about 90% of your posts are about you-know-who.

mrushton · August 2010

I'm not worried about about Armstrong and branding. It's his business, literally. His detractors talk of him exploiting his illness yet i don't see any of the pharmaceutical companies handing cancer/aids drugs or patents out. Anyway back to JU. He still got paid a lot of money by a team that had doping as a core part of its training. He was happy to accept the Audi and the Euro millions and the Olympic Gold in 2000 which I notice he hasn't returned yet (that's if did take drugs and is in a quandry). If LA hadn't turned up in 1999 and Ullrich had fulfilled his potential, would he still be 'burnt-out'?

Kléber · August 2010

I think some like Ullrich because of his human failings.
- it was probably never his choice to dope but the East German system started giving him "vitamins" in his mid-teens, probably steroids. What later became EPO was probably only a progression
- he failed and this endears him to people, the cake-eating guy who was too chubby is just more human than the borderline psychopath who weighs his food portions.
- he's been humiliated. He cheated and got busted.

I don't have too much sympathy for him but clearly he's part-victim in the story here. As pointed out above, it's amusing to see him vanish from public life on the day his legal case against Werner Franke collapses, the same day anyone is allowed to call Ullrich a doper in public.

afx237vi · August 2010

Kléber wrote:

I think some like Ullrich because of his human failings.
- it was probably never his choice to dope but the East German system started giving him "vitamins" in his mid-teens, probably steroids. What later became EPO was probably only a progression
- he failed and this endears him to people, the cake-eating guy who was too chubby is just more human than the borderline psychopath who weighs his food portions.
- he's been humiliated. He cheated and got busted.

I don't have too much sympathy for him but clearly he's part-victim in the story here. As pointed out above, it's amusing to see him vanish from public life on the day his legal case against Werner Franke collapses, the same day anyone is allowed to call Ullrich a doper in public.

Who even knew he was in public life? What is the perception of him in Germany? Is he still a big star there, doing the chat shows and the lifestyle magazines and the other celebrity nonsense? I thought he had disappeared soon after OP and was enjoying his retirement.

I agree with everything else you wrote. He's a cheat, for sure, but some cheaters are easier to sympathise with than others.

Kléber · August 2010

afx237vi wrote:

What is the perception of him in Germany? Is he still a big star there, doing the chat shows and the lifestyle magazines and the other celebrity nonsense?.

No idea. I thought Jude Law was a woman, ie Judith Law, until I was correctly informed by a colleague six months ago. So German celebrities, no idea. That said, I think he has done some celebrity stuff. Here he is hanging out with footy legend Lothar Matheus... at a party for Lambertz, the German choc and biscuit maker.
Annual+Lambertz+Party+2PWrlOCu05ll.jpg

frenchfighter · August 2010

del

neilo23 · August 2010

afx237vi wrote:

Kléber wrote:

I think some like Ullrich because of his human failings.
- it was probably never his choice to dope but the East German system started giving him "vitamins" in his mid-teens, probably steroids. What later became EPO was probably only a progression
- he failed and this endears him to people, the cake-eating guy who was too chubby is just more human than the borderline psychopath who weighs his food portions.
- he's been humiliated. He cheated and got busted.

I don't have too much sympathy for him but clearly he's part-victim in the story here. As pointed out above, it's amusing to see him vanish from public life on the day his legal case against Werner Franke collapses, the same day anyone is allowed to call Ullrich a doper in public.

Who even knew he was in public life? What is the perception of him in Germany? Is he still a big star there, doing the chat shows and the lifestyle magazines and the other celebrity nonsense? I thought he had disappeared soon after OP and was enjoying his retirement.

I agree with everything else you wrote. He's a cheat, for sure, but some cheaters are easier to sympathise with than others.

Nope. Haven't seen him on TV for a couple of years. No surprise, cos the German media only talks about doping as soon as the topic turns to bikes. As does the average man on the street. It's very tiresome.

liversedge · August 2010

DaveyL wrote:

Yeah, only about 90% of your posts are about you-know-who.

Where are the other 10% posted, cakestop?

RichN95. · August 2010

BikingBernie wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Any thoughts on Ullrich BB? Or any other doper not from America? Such a blinkered obsession isn't good for the mind or objectivity.

Mmmm, another ad hominem attack, rather than an attempt to address the points I raise. :roll:

Perhaps you missed the comments I made just a few days ago regarding Indurain. I have also passed unfavourable comments about Millar's criticism of Landis and questioned whether Wiggin's was really clean in last year's Tour. (Suspicions raised by the conflicting accounts he gave of his weight loss programme). Not doping related but I have been very critical of Cavendish as well. So, not so much of a 'blinkered obsession' after all...

OK, lets have a look at these other topics you have addressed.

1. Millar's criticism of Landis. Are you really trying to say that this has nothing to do with Armstrong?

2. Recent comments about Indurain. A search of the word 'Indurain' with your poster name reveals only threads with a topic clearly referring to Armstrong. The most recent ones are 'Armstrong to blame for his cancer?' and 'WSJ Part 2'.

3. Wiggins. If we look at the most obvious thread 'Is there anyone on here who genuinely thinks Wiggins doped?'

Your first post is:

There are differences between the two cases though. Figures released by people like Edward Coyle show that Armstrong's post cancer Tour weight was actually within a kilo or so of his weight when he won the world RR championships. On the other hand Wiggins clearly has lost a lot of weight. Whether his previous body fat level really was over 12%, as the figures he gave suggest, is another matter. (This has already been discussed on here).

On another thread - 'Wiggins to publish blood test results', you post:

Yes, this is to take a very sceptical stance, and I really would like to believe that Wiggins is clean, but we have to remember that we can't always rely 100% on data given out by a rider or his team. For example, we know that Armstrong has changed data that he has made public on several occasions, as with the recent changes he made to his haemocrit values, as referred to by Iain, and when he altered his VO2 max figures in response to Lemond's criticism that someone with his reported VO2 max - 81.4 as I recall - could not produce the sort of sustained power outputs he did.

4. Cavendish - no link there. Although he has been friendly with Armstrong in the past, so who knows if that has swayed you.

So essentially you have nothing to say about anything unrelated to Armstrong.

The tragedy is that the vast majority of this forum, including myself, thinks that Armstrong doped. But we still want to chat about cycling and only bring Armstrong into the discussion when appropriate, not derailing threads with an obsessive agenda. The biggest joke being your comments about Armstrong feeding 'anti-french' sentiment, while continually spewing anti-american bile

You on the other hand are a one trick pony. A one cause crusader. A joke, a clown, a fool, our village idiot. To use the name of a local band a 'Manic Street Preacher'. You are the man with the sandwich board proclaiming the end is nigh. Even if we agree with you, we still think you're a little deranged.

Ullrich burnt out

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