1989 Tour de France - Everything it is held up to be?

CyclingBantam

I often read threads on here where people claim that years Tour was rubbish and their hasn't been a good one since '89. Firstly I am staggered they continue to watch the tour if they have not enjoyed it for years.

Secondly, was the '89 tour THAT good? Don't get me wrong I'm sure it was good but was that more down to the last day excitement? There must have been some dull stages.

I appreciate some people just like to moan about anything but I do wonder I'd they look at that tour through Rose tinted glasses. I bet some moaned after that edition

Matchstick Man

the infamous stage into Aix-En-Provence where the top 5 on GC (Lemond, Fignon, Delgado, Theunisse, Lejaretta) barrelled it into the finish on a supposed "transition" stage and Lemond took the win. When has that happened since? Everyone these days plays ultra-defensive in the top 10 and post 1991 it's basically been a procession since the first long TT or mountain stage
Prologue - Delgado (defending champ) turns up late(!) and loses the Tour right there and then has a 'mare in the TTT a couple of days later.
Lemond and Fignon traded the jersey between them in the last 10 days as they battled each other and their own fatigue and/or saddle sores.
Lemond's use of tri-bars and general resurrection from the dead. Bearing in mind he came back in '88 with PDM and struggled with weight and form and then came to the Tour with a team on a par with Vacansoleil these days. In fact, only Johan Lammerts and he were the only finishers of that team IIRC. He basically did it the hard way, on his own.
You had Fignon and Mottet gving the bunch a lesson on Bastille Day when it was the 200th anniversary of the Revolution.
Several leaders (Acacio Da Silva and others) rather than one or two leaders from start to finish
You had Delgado, Fignon and Lemond duking it out with several Grand Tours to their name before the Tour started and they were all late 20's so at their athletic peak after a great decade of Grand Tours. Lemond and Fignon were talented as precocious 21/22 year olds winning Grand Tours and placing on GT podiums

Essentially an open race the likes of which we've never seen since. It was the depth of the field all of whom could have (and wanted to) win

andyp

The transition stage was to Aix-les-Bains, through the Chartreuse massif, so not really a transition stage at all, more of a middle mountain stage. But you're right to ask when we last saw something like that.

The final 10 days were amazing with Fignon and Lemond knocking lumps out of each other as they sought to gain a race winning advantage. That the final result was in doubt until the final 100 metres of the race tells you what kind of race it was.

CyclingBantam

I think that is a point very well made. Thanks chaps. At least I know now!

DaveyL

Matchstick Man wrote:

post 1991 it's basically been a procession since the first long TT or mountain stage

Really

disquieting_museeuws

The 1989 tour was indeed a classic with many twists & turns & reversals of fortune. I thought this year's edition was very good; I also think that an event of this length should have quieter moments, they've always been part of the Tour and serve to exacerbate the excitement when it comes along.

Other highlights in '89 were a stage with cobbles and a finish on the Spa F1 circuit in the first week. There was also Millar's epic stage win to Superbagneres where he broke away with Mottet after 24 KMs, was joined by Delgado at 95 KMs, and eventually beat the favourites by 3'00 plus. Delgado, who finished with Millar, was only 57 seconds off the lead after the finish. The chasing bunch was down to 25 at the foot of the final climb, including most of the top 10 on GC .

I think 3 of Lemond's team-mates finished (a young Museeuw was definitely amongst them).

2003 was another epic year - most of the Indurain / Armstrong multiple wins are a blur to me.

rick_chasey

'98?


....

rajMAN

I just watched the 89 Tour on DVD (highlights) really enjoyable to see again. Nice bikes too!!

dave_1

Fignon also attacked with Mottet in the last 50km on the stage to Marseille in week two, a flat stage. It caused carnage on what would today be an HTC sprinter train procession or a non gc break type stage. It's very exiciting to see GC guys go out and fight on stages we'd automatically assume are non GC days,. seeing flat stages turned into a GC battle by the tenacious like Fignon. Lemond had to chase alone with Theunisse, Delgdao and Rooks It's the last time a rider in yellow who was a top GC contender used flat stages to gain time when already in yellow. Did Indurain, Riis, Arsmtrong or Pantani, or Contador attack in yellow in such circumstances like Fignon. 1989 TDF was the best bike race there's ever been and Fignon one of the greatest ever TDF riders!

Matchstick Man

DaveyL wrote:

Matchstick Man wrote:

post 1991 it's basically been a procession since the first long TT or mountain stage

Really

ok, let's have a look:
1991 - Indurain
1992 - Indurain
1993 - Indurain
1194 - Indurain
1995 - Indurain
1996 - Riis
1997 - Ullrich
1998 - Pantani
1999 - LA
2000 - LA
2001 - LA
2002 - LA
2003 - LA
2004 - LA
2005 - LA
2006 - Periero
2007 - Contador
2008 - Sastre
2009 - Contador
2010 - Contador

So we've got 20 years to argue about. Ok, LA and Indurain account for 12 of those and they were essentially processions
Riis had his Tour win sewn up and shut down by week 2 in 1996
Ullrich had similar in 1997
Pantani went against a weakened field in 1998 where you had Axel Merckx and Bobby Julich defending their GC positions rather than willing to win the race.
Landis / Periero was only exciting after Morzine and harked back to the 1980's but by the final ITT it was exciting as Lemond taking Chiapucci in the final ITT in 1990
2007 - Another by-the-numbers Bruyneel victory
2008 - Probably the closest to the spirit of '89 with attacking riding by half a dozen GC guys on AlpeD'Huez for instance
2009 - Contador displaying his strength early on and the fear about the Ventoux stage stifled any exciting racing.
2010 - Like 2008 a closer race but only between 2 guys with rest of the field distanced early on

DaveyL

Matchstick Man wrote:

ok, let's have a look:
1991 - Indurain
1992 - Indurain
1993 - Indurain
1194 - Indurain
1995 - Indurain
1996 - Riis
1997 - Ullrich
1998 - Pantani
1999 - LA
2000 - LA
2001 - LA
2002 - LA
2003 - LA
2004 - LA
2005 - LA
2006 - Periero
2007 - Contador
2008 - Sastre
2009 - Contador
2010 - Contador

So we've got 20 years to argue about. Ok, LA and Indurain account for 12 of those and they were essentially processions
Riis had his Tour win sewn up and shut down by week 2 in 1996
Ullrich had similar in 1997
Pantani went against a weakened field in 1998 where you had Axel Merckx and Bobby Julich defending their GC positions rather than willing to win the race.
Landis / Periero was only exciting after Morzine and harked back to the 1980's but by the final ITT it was exciting as Lemond taking Chiapucci in the final ITT in 1990
2007 - Another by-the-numbers Bruyneel victory
2008 - Probably the closest to the spirit of '89 with attacking riding by half a dozen GC guys on AlpeD'Huez for instance
2009 - Contador displaying his strength early on and the fear about the Ventoux stage stifled any exciting racing.
2010 - Like 2008 a closer race but only between 2 guys with rest of the field distanced early on

2003 - Armstrong vs Ullrich was exciting.

2006 - "Landis / Pereiro was only exciting after Morzine and harked back to the 1980's but by the final ITT it was exciting as Lemond taking Chiapucci in the final ITT in 1990" - OK so we are now moving the goalposts to say it was boring from the final TT onwards? :roll:

2007 - "Another by-the-numbers Bruyneel victory" - honestly? Remember the final podium? Going into the last TT, Contador had Evans @1:50 and Leipheimer @2:49. It finished up with 31 seconds between the top three. And that's not even taking into account the drama with Rasmussen.

2008 and 2010 - again, the excitement and uncertainty lasted long beyond the first TT or mountain stage.

rick_chasey

Sod spending the cash on old tour dvds.

Spend it on Spring Classic seasons.

Much better racing, and more nuanced tactics.

Job done.

Matchstick Man

DaveyL wrote:

[2006 - "Landis / Pereiro was only exciting after Morzine and harked back to the 1980's but by the final ITT it was exciting as Lemond taking Chiapucci in the final ITT in 1990" - OK so we are now moving the goalposts to say it was boring from the final TT onwards? :roll:

2007 - "Another by-the-numbers Bruyneel victory" - honestly? Remember the final podium? Going into the last TT, Contador had Evans @1:50 and Leipheimer @2:49. It finished up with 31 seconds between the top three. And that's not even taking into account the drama with Rasmussen.

2006 - Landis looked to have the race sewn up until he collapsed but after his comeback it was back to expecting him to win. The drama came from him falling apart. So for the majority of those 3 weeks it was a foregone conclusion

2007 - Thanks for proving my point - Contador had almost 2 mins going into the final ITT.
I was trying to show that the majority of the Tours post '91 were not that interesting in the context of being compared to '89. Certainly I'll agree that the last couple of years have been better due to there not being one person being heads and shoulders above the rest. I'd argue that 2008 was the best of '06-'10 with this year a close second.

Essentially, isn't this what forums were made for: arguing about stuff like this?

sampras38

Taking the obvious EPO issue out of the equation before the likes of bikebernie pipe up, I personally really enjoyed Lance's first Tour win in 99 and have the DVD.

At that time he wasn't known as a climber and watching how he dominated in most of the mountain stages and TT was pretty awesome imo.

I'm in no way a LA fanboy but I did enjoy that one particularly.

afx237vi

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sod spending the cash on old tour dvds.

Spend it on Spring Classic seasons.

Much better racing, and more nuanced tactics.

Job done.

Except Spring classic races are not always exciting, just as grand tours are not always a procession.

rick_chasey

afx237vi wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Sod spending the cash on old tour dvds.

Spend it on Spring Classic seasons.

Much better racing, and more nuanced tactics.

Job done.

Except Spring classic races are not always exciting, just as grand tours are not always a procession.

Across all the races in a classics season there's more good racing than in a whole tour.

DaveyL

Matchstick Man wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

[2006 - "Landis / Pereiro was only exciting after Morzine and harked back to the 1980's but by the final ITT it was exciting as Lemond taking Chiapucci in the final ITT in 1990" - OK so we are now moving the goalposts to say it was boring from the final TT onwards? :roll:

2007 - "Another by-the-numbers Bruyneel victory" - honestly? Remember the final podium? Going into the last TT, Contador had Evans @1:50 and Leipheimer @2:49. It finished up with 31 seconds between the top three. And that's not even taking into account the drama with Rasmussen.

2006 - Landis looked to have the race sewn up until he collapsed but after his comeback it was back to expecting him to win. The drama came from him falling apart. So for the majority of those 3 weeks it was a foregone conclusion

2007 - Thanks for proving my point - Contador had almost 2 mins going into the final ITT.
I was trying to show that the majority of the Tours post '91 were not that interesting in the context of being compared to '89. Certainly I'll agree that the last couple of years have been better due to there not being one person being heads and shoulders above the rest. I'd argue that 2008 was the best of '06-'10 with this year a close second.

Essentially, isn't this what forums were made for: arguing about stuff like this?

Do you mean proving your original point, or your modified one?

Your summary of 2006 is utterly disingenuous. 2007 finished with three riders 30 seconds apart. If Evans had overhauled Contador in the final TT we'd be comparing it to '89, so it's, what, 30 seconds away from one of the greatest Tours?

You haven't bothered to tell me where I'm wrong with 2003, 2008 and 2010 either.

afx237vi

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Except Spring classic races are not always exciting, just as grand tours are not always a procession.

Across all the races in a classics season there's more good racing than in a whole tour.

Apples and oranges. The two are different by their very nature. You're not going to sit there with a Tour DVD and watch all of the flat stages in their entirety, but if you pick out the highlights, a Tour de France DVD can be just as interesting as a Paris-Roubaix or a Flanders.

On the other hand, there are times when you might watch a certain Spring classic and wonder what all the fuss is about.

A bike race is made exciting by the riders and perhaps the route... not the name that's printed on the front of a DVD case.

Matchstick Man

DaveyL wrote:

Matchstick Man wrote:

[ I'd argue that 2008 was the best of '06-'10 with this year a close second.:

You haven't bothered to tell me where I'm wrong with 2003, 2008 and 2010 either.

I agree with you about 2008 - see above
2003 - LA vs Ullrich saw LA triumph but Ullrich never wore yellow did he?Lance wore yellow from stage 7 onwards, Beloki and Leipheimer crashed out. Lance may have struggled by his standards but i wouldn't class it as exciting, in fact didn't LA ease off once he knew Ullrich had crashed on the final ITT (Millar won that stage). LA still beat Ullrich by a minute didn't he?
2010 - Two guys racing against each other makes for exciting racing but Menchov and Sanchez rode for the podium and the rest just were content to safeguard their positions within the top 10. You knew fairly early on that the winner was going to be one of those two didn't you?

DaveyL

Yes, but in none of those races has it been "a procession from the first TT or mountain stage"

Matchstick Man

DaveyL wrote:

Yes, but in none of those races has it been "a procession from the first TT or mountain stage"

marvellous - we're getting somewhere then! So when I say "basically" can we agree that those races apart, the vast majority of the races post '91 have *basically* been processional?

RichN95.

The 2006-2008 Tours were so predictable that only one person picked the winner on PTP (andyp picking Sastre). No-one picked Rasmussen either.

And there's always more to a Tour than GC.

dave_1

Matchstick Man wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Yes, but in none of those races has it been "a procession from the first TT or mountain stage"

marvellous - we're getting somewhere then! So when I say "basically" can we agree that those races apart, the vast majority of the races post '91 have *basically* been processional?

Schlek certainly had us wondering 30km into the final TT this year and in the 2003 TDF it was very unkown going into the final TT...nobody knew who would win

rick_chasey

afx237vi wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Except Spring classic races are not always exciting, just as grand tours are not always a procession.

Across all the races in a classics season there's more good racing than in a whole tour.

Apples and oranges. The two are different by their very nature. You're not going to sit there with a Tour DVD and watch all of the flat stages in their entirety, but if you pick out the highlights, a Tour de France DVD can be just as interesting as a Paris-Roubaix or a Flanders.

On the other hand, there are times when you might watch a certain Spring classic and wonder what all the fuss is about.

A bike race is made exciting by the riders and perhaps the route... not the name that's printed on the front of a DVD case.

By their very nature, 20 days of classics will be better than 20 days of Tour!

afx237vi

RichN95 wrote:

The 2006-2008 Tours were so predictable that only one person picked the winner on PTP (andyp picking Sastre). No-one picked Rasmussen either.

And there's always more to a Tour than GC.

C'mon man, don't deny me my one moment of glory in the entire history of the competition...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key ... utput=html

afx237vi

Rick Chasey wrote:

By their very nature, 20 days of classics will be better than 20 days of Tour!

Put 20 classics in a row and they wouldn't be raced like classics.

rick_chasey

afx237vi wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

By their very nature, 20 days of classics will be better than 20 days of Tour!

Put 20 classics in a row and they wouldn't be raced like classics.

No, but they never are!

RichN95.

afx237vi wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

The 2006-2008 Tours were so predictable that only one person picked the winner on PTP (andyp picking Sastre). No-one picked Rasmussen either.

And there's always more to a Tour than GC.

C'mon man, don't deny me my one moment of glory in the entire history of the competition...

https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key ... utput=html

Fair enough - I must have missed yours amidst all the pre-race information.

dave_1

afx237vi wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

By their very nature, 20 days of classics will be better than 20 days of Tour!

Put 20 classics in a row and they wouldn't be raced like classics.

there are 7 or 8 stages plus days in yellow at the TDF, that each of which, I guess, will boost a rider's bargaining power like winning a spring classic given the coverage the TDF gets..then add in the two other jerseys,,,10 classic level contract boosters in 3 weeks?? How much is a day on yellow worth for the following season's contract compared to a classic? Same? I have no idea as not been there, not seen contracts..but, maybe a fair comparison? Robert Millar said the TDF was like Olympics year every year...if you were good enough to treat it that seriously

DaveyL

Matchstick Man wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Yes, but in none of those races has it been "a procession from the first TT or mountain stage"

marvellous - we're getting somewhere then! So when I say "basically" can we agree that those races apart, the vast majority of the races post '91 have *basically* been processional?

No

Monty Dog

1989 was a great year - certainly it was no forgone conclusion until the final minutes. What has spoilt my enthusiasm in recent years has been the use of entire teams to control the riding on key stages - pre EPO it was mano-e-mano on key mountain stages as domestiques were shelled on successive climbs. These days you see 85kg rouleurs riding 'tempo' on Cat 1 climbs, effectively neutralising the race. There were indications this year than such preparation is no longer available.