Van Impe on Charteau

frenchfighter

“What does the leader Charteau do? Get himself in the early escape, gather as many points as possible and give up in the finale. It’s dead easy to do.”

Apparently he has said this for a number of years, even including Virenque.

Van Impe is of the opinion that (not his direct words 'the polka-dot jersey wearer should be contesting the final climbs with the GC leaders, and even winning them (Van Impe won 9 stages at the Tour, Bahamontes 7)'.

I tend to agree with this view in the sense that someone who did it that way is clearly a more worthy wearer of the best climbers jersey

To be fair he has also said:
“Virenque and Jalabert are the ones who started this – but with this difference: they could really climb, and they could win sprints on hors category climbs or even win the stage.”

The double points on final mountains was introudced in a bid to stop the very same strategy that Van Impe refers to.

According to Charteau, in the amateurs he was a pure climber and on turning pro he had to work for his leaders. Effectively this means he was tired before he reached the mountains and individual shows of brilliance were not possible. The point can equally be applied to other riders who could potentially illuminate the climbs but are hampered by helping their team leaders. Not having to work so much for a leader this year left him fresh.

Imagine a Navarro being free to go for the polka dot in true style - the thought is quite exciting.

The man himself. Excellent photo.

takethehighroad

What's your opinion on Rasmussen then?

Not fishing, just interested

Homer J

I always thought it was for the most consistent climber, not necessarily the best climber?

pb21

Like the green jersey is not awarded to the fastest sprinter, the polka dot jersey is not awarded to the fastest climber. It is awarded to the person who gets the most points in the KOM competition.

Its obvious Schleck or Contador were the best climbers but they werent the best in the KOM competition.

afx237vi

frenchfighter wrote:

“What does the leader Charteau do? Get himself in the early escape, gather as many points as possible and give up in the finale. It’s dead easy to do.”

If it's that easy, why wasn't everyone doing it? "Gather as many points as possible." In a points competition! The cheek of the man!

It's pretty insulting towards Charteau that when he wins, everyone starts complaining that there must be something wrong with the competition. The points were there on offer, he took them, he won. End of story.

If someone from Euskaltel had won using the exact same method... I dunno, someone like Txurruka or Egoi Martinez... we wouldn't be having this conversation.

smithy21

afx237vi wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

“What does the leader Charteau do? Get himself in the early escape, gather as many points as possible and give up in the finale. It’s dead easy to do.”

If it's that easy, why wasn't everyone doing it? "Gather as many points as possible." In a points competition! The cheek of the man!

It's pretty insulting towards Charteau that when he wins, everyone starts complaining that there must be something wrong with the competition. The points were there on offer, he took them, he won. End of story.

If someone from Euskaltel had won using the exact same method... I dunno, someone like Txurruka or Egoi Martinez... we wouldn't be having this conversation.

+1

Its not as if no-one else was trying to do the same.

frenchfighter

TTHR, what do you mean by 'then?'. I don't have much of an opinion on him either way - I don't particuarly like him but then never saw over much of his riding.

Garry H

Another "rent a quote" from Van Impe. As great a legend as he is, the Tour itself has changed a ot since his day.

frenchfighter

I do not think Charteau shouldn't have the jersey - just like has been said, the competition is for consistent points even on small climbs and he did that the best. He made some exciting attacks although I don't like his climbing style much.

When I saw I agree with VI, it is in a sense that I would like to see a pure climber go for the KOM without any regard for GC. I said it before and I'll say it now - I wish someone like Sastre had tried to do that...who remembers anyone after 10th really.

Maybe VI is just jealous that he is no longer riding! I think it was Disgruntled Goat that said in the Pure Climbers thread that VI never had a good word to say.

takethehighroad

Rasmussen used to go off early in a stage and get the mountain points then still be there to win the stage at the end, and often it lead to being high up on GC.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?id=results/tour078

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//tour06/?id=results/tour0616

That seems to be the sort of thing that you'd like to see more of, no?

dougzz

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

Rasmussen used to go off early in a stage and get the mountain points then still be there to win the stage at the end, and often it lead to being high up on GC.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?id=results/tour078

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//tour06/?id=results/tour0616

That seems to be the sort of thing that you'd like to see more of, no?

But then the reason he could do this may well be linked to the reason he doesn't get to ride the Tour anymore, no?

morstar

dougzz wrote:

TakeTheHighRoad wrote:

Rasmussen used to go off early in a stage and get the mountain points then still be there to win the stage at the end, and often it lead to being high up on GC.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?id=results/tour078

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006//tour06/?id=results/tour0616

That seems to be the sort of thing that you'd like to see more of, no?

But then the reason he could do this may well be linked to the reason he doesn't get to ride the Tour anymore, no?

I thought something very similar as I read that post! Only difference was I had Chiapucci in my mind but exactly the same scenario.

Abdoujaparov

I wouldn't suggest meddling too much with the traditions of the tour, but I do think the race would benefit from a few tweaks.

It comes down to rewarding brilliance and while I think charteau did a great job I wouldn't call him brilliant.

What's the prize money for finishing fourth on GC? Would cutting money for non-podium gc places have any effect? There must be a way of making fourth to tenth on gc less important...

Think of the benefits that would have on the racing generally.

gabriel959

Abdoujaparov wrote:

I wouldn't suggest meddling too much with the traditions of the tour, but I do think the race would benefit from a few tweaks.

It comes down to rewarding brilliance and while I think charteau did a great job I wouldn't call him brilliant.

What's the prize money for finishing fourth on GC? Would cutting money for non-podium gc places have any effect? There must be a way of making fourth to tenth on gc less important...

Think of the benefits that would have on the racing generally.

I think you might be onto something there, I wish teams didn't give a monkeys about positions 4 to 15 or even 20 these days!!!

FJS

pb21 wrote:

Like the green jersey is not awarded to the fastest sprinter, the polka dot jersey is not awarded to the fastest climber. It is awarded to the person who gets the most points in the KOM competition.

I don't disagree, riders have to play with the rules of the game, and who does so best wins; but there is a difference in that the polka dot jersey is actually officially called 'Classement général du meilleur grimpeur'... which is a little flattering for Charteau. The competition for green is just 'Classement général individuel par points'.

Homer J

IMO, I suppose it's a bit like winning the TDF without winning a stage?

calvjones

frenchfighter wrote:

TTHR, what do you mean by 'then?'. I don't have much of an opinion on him either way - I don't particuarly like him but then never saw over much of his riding.

Eh? How can you possibly be a fan of Contador if you've never seen over much of Rasmussen?

Where were you for the 2007 Tour? That's all you need to know. EPO-fuelled climber on dubious team accelerates repeatedly in his usual style to drop Cadel Evans and ride into yellow.

knedlicky

Abdoujaparov wrote:

What's the prize money for finishing fourth on GC? Would cutting money for non-podium gc places have any effect? There must be a way of making fourth to tenth on gc less important...
Think of the benefits that would have on the racing generally.

4th place gets 70,000 Euro, 5th 50,000 Euro, thereafter winning the polkadot or the green is financially better (25,000 Euro). Top three in any of the secondary comps gets in more money than any GC place beyond 5th, and just two stage wins brings in more than GC 7th. 10th GC gets only 3800 Euro, 20th gets just 950 Euro - hardly worth it for 3 weeks slog, but still over twice what 91st place gets.

So, from the financial rewards point-of-view, I don’t think there’s any argument which warrants cutting money for non-podium GC places and making 4th-10th-20th less important, they already aren’t that important, especially out of the top five.
If you want to cut money, from the GC winnings, taking it from 1st (450,000 Euro) would be arguably more justified. That 1st gets 250,000 Euro more than 2nd seems disproportionate to me.

Eitherway, I don’t agree with increasing the importance of the KOM (or Points) at the expense of lower GC placings for other reasons:
- TdF tradition is the GC, the other comps are small rewards introduced for those who can’t; these comps shouldn’t be elevated to compete with tradition.
- Increase the value of other comps at the expense of non-podium GC placings and you orientate all comps even more to a ‘only winning counts’ philosophy. (This also might have an adverse effect on the racing - constant controls by teams of leading riders in the different comps)
- Vast tracts of France are flat(tish) and other bits very mountainous; to greatly elevate KOM (or Points) in importance would ignore the overall geography of the land and thus the name of the race

frenchfighter

knedlicky wrote:

1st (450,000 Euro) would be arguably more justified. That 1st gets 250,000 Euro more than 2nd seems disproportionate to me.

Typically the leader shares it with his team so they all get 50k.

So you could say that 2nd place gets 200k more than 2nd...

sherer

sometimes i get the feeling people won't be happy until Contador or Schleck win the KOM jersey.

Charteau got more points than all the others and actually climbed very well staying with the main group longer than some of the GC contenders

mididoctors

I liked charteau's ride..no seriously.. not because it was a outstanding display of climbing perfrmance but because he had to ride above his level to achieve it.. some bl00dy hard efforts to stay in some breaks there

but agree the jersey is a pretty cr4p spectacle in the traditional sense.. there was some interest in the competition because it was contested so I am giving it a pass...the mountains GC in most tours is rubbish

rick_chasey

sherer wrote:

sometimes i get the feeling people won't be happy until Contador or Schleck win the KOM jersey.

Charteau got more points than all the others and actually climbed very well staying with the main group longer than some of the GC contenders

Ignoring the jersey, who was the best climber in the Tour?

Now who was "king of the mountains"?


Modern day racing has turned what was a competition that rewarded the best climbers to ones which rewards people who are in breaks during mountain stages.

That certainly has it's place, but let's not kid anyone that Charteau is the king of the mountains in anything but the technical sense that he won the jersey.

I am more interested in seeing the best climbers rewarded.

It just so happens this tour was very climb happy (only 50 odd km of TTing??!?!), and the two current best GC people are climbers first, TTers second ( or third in Andy's case). That's often not the case.

While I'm on the subject, GTs, especially the Tour, seem to be missing rides by GT contenders on non mountain/TT stages (with the exception of the cobbles). You always read in the past of Merckx picking up 30 seconds here on some flat stage, on a rolling hill stage there. This years' neutralised stage almost implied that there is a consensus in the peleton that there are days to race for GC, and days not to.

You see big time gaps in one dayers which are plenty less hilly than many of the stages in the Tour, and they're all ridden by specialsts. Why can't they ride like that every day?

*sigh* my eternal frustration with GTs...

moorjohn

why can't they ride like that (one-day racers) every day?

Surely because they'll be knackered on the day after their big win, and vulnerable to attack from another GC contenter?

rick_chasey

moorjohn wrote:

why can't they ride like that (one-day racers) every day?

Surely because they'll be knackered on the day after their big win, and vulnerable to attack from another GC contenter?

They seem to put the efforts in on back-to-back mountain stages.

chriskempton

Is the depressing conclusion that the sport has developed in such a way that the formula that gives the best prospect of victory is known by everyone?

In 'the good old days', people did things on instinct. We remember the glorious successes, but history forgets the futile failures.

In the modern sport, things are different - tactics have been honed over the years, science tells you what's possible (if you haven't got the W/kg, forget about trying any attacks in the mountains), and everyone knows that winning a GT means finishing in the bunch on the flat stages, hitting the numbers in the TTs and being in the final selection on the mountain stages, which is achieved by keeping your effort on every mountain to within roughly the same parameters as everyone else.

Coming back to the KoM, the problem is that GC contenders are all following the same template for success, and this means that anyone like Charteau who is prepared to blow themselves on the earlier mountains in each stage and amass the points will beat them for polka.

Maybe the answer is to only award points on the last mountain of mountain stages, but then that serves to discourage the great escape we'd all like to see from the great climbers.

dougzz

calvjones wrote:

Eh? How can you possibly be a fan of Contador if you've never seen over much of Rasmussen?

Where were you for the 2007 Tour? That's all you need to know. EPO-fuelled climber on dubious team accelerates repeatedly in his usual style to drop Cadel Evans and ride into yellow.

This is Rasmussen right?

Cumulonimbus

Maybe you could try two categories - one for mountains attacker (must be a better phrase) which deals with the whole mountain stages, and one for the best climber, which only takes into account the last climb of the day?

disgruntledgoat

Cumulonimbus wrote:

Maybe you could try two categories - one for mountains attacker (must be a better phrase) which deals with the whole mountain stages, and one for the best climber, which only takes into account the last climb of the day?

Pardon my ignorance (or stupidity if i failed to pick up on this) but isn't that what the stage result is for?

mididoctors

you don't want too many competitions... becomes too many reasons for different teams to shut down the racing..

plus you get all that 1970's-80's podium melee

rick_chasey

mididoctors wrote:

you don't want too many competitions... becomes too many reasons for different teams to shut down the racing..

plus you get all that 1970's-80's podium melee

You want better racing than the Tour is offering at the moment.

The demise of the value of the polka dot is a nice little microcosm of the problem.

sherer

the people in the top 5 of the GC have a competition to go for, the yellow jersey. I think the KOM works fine as it is, maybe a few outside the top 5 could go for it instead of just a placing but that is about it.

Maybe give a few more UCI points to the jersey might be a good idea