A letter from Michele Ferrari

iainf72
iainf72 Posts: 15,784
edited July 2010 in Pro race
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/open-le ... le-ferrari

Cor....
Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
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Comments

  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    Was that a gauntlet being thrown down? :shock:
  • ratsbeyfus
    ratsbeyfus Posts: 2,841
    I think BB is formulating his reply now...

    I had one of them red bikes but I don't any more. Sad face.

    @ratsbey
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,730
    It is absolutely false that cyclists contacted me for doping programs: some came to me at first with such request, but never came back twice

    Aside from the fact the second clause renders the first clause false, we all know why they never came back twice with a request - because he always said yes!
    _
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    In summary, "I am not as dodgy as Lemond says I am... but..." . I did laugh when I read:
    Sure, doping has always been rooted in the world of sports and cycling in particular; from my part, I have always tried to dissuade
  • Bakunin
    Bakunin Posts: 868
    I can't wait to read Lemond's response to that.

    Why would the "good" doctor enter the fray?
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Bakunin wrote:
    I can't wait to read Lemond's response to that.

    Why would the "good" doctor enter the fray?

    Read the most recent Lemond blog entry on cyclingnews.com It's a direct response to that.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    not read the blog by Lemond yet but is there really anything in the letter from Ferrari. All he sayd is he hasn't doped anyone and doping has always existed in sport.

    Not checked the CN forums bet they are going crazy over this
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    Who is Ferrari talking about here?
    But what Greg does not know, or pretends not to know, is that one of such “confidants” actually clearly mentions his name and that of his doctor in relation to doping events.
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    It is absolutely false that cyclists contacted me for doping programs: some came to me at first with such request, but never came back twice

    Aside from the fact the second clause renders the first clause false, we all know why they never came back twice with a request - because he always said yes!

    I could be wrong but I think that's a mis-spelling. I think he meant, "contracted." As in signed with him for doping.
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    This is total bull. There's plenty of quotes from him touting doping as a valid choice.
    Sure, doping has always been rooted in the world of sports and cycling in particular; from my part, I have always tried to dissuade, proposing legal and efficient alternatives: training, nutrition, altitude.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,114
    Maybe, in the spirit of openness, Dr Ferrari could identify those riders he's currently coaching? I'm sure the UCI would be very interested in knowing exactly who they are.

    If he's not providing them with doping programmes then why the need to protect their identities.
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    andyp wrote:
    Maybe, in the spirit of openness, Dr Ferrari could identify those riders he's currently coaching? I'm sure the UCI would be very interested in knowing exactly who they are.

    If he's not providing them with doping programmes then why the need to protect their identities.

    You're kidding, right? Even if Ferrari were providing non-doping help to a rider, they'd easily be blackballed from cycling just for using him.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Who would go to Doctor Ferrari just for the sports science advice? It would be a suicidal decision in PR terms. It's like Little Red Riding Hood visiting The Wolf for cookery lessons.

    As for Ferrari's clients, just look for St Moritz. Not all riders going to St Moritz use him but this is where the man is based and operates.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    No mention of Simeoni?

    An article on Ferrari. It's interesting but not completely accurate. For example, the article claims that when Ferrari was convicted of doping-related sporting fraud Armstrong's shunning of him 'was complete'. In reality Armstrong has admitted that once he stopped working with him (officially at any rate :wink: ) he remained a close personal friend of Ferrari.

    http://www.tourdefranceinformation.com/ ... -8,00.html
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    edited July 2010
    Bakunin wrote:
    Why would the "good" doctor enter the fray?
    See my last post. Ferrari and Armstrong are still close friends. :wink:
  • dg74
    dg74 Posts: 656
    Banana Bread.
  • Monty Zoncolan
    Monty Zoncolan Posts: 341
    Didn't Ferrari say doping was as natural as drinking orange juice? Or am I confusing him with someone else.
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    Monty Zoncolan wrote:
    Didn't Ferrari say doping was as natural as drinking orange juice? Or am I confusing him with someone else.
    He said it was no more dangerous than drinking orange juice, or words to that effect.

    "EPO is not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink ten liters of orange juice."
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,114
    donrhummy wrote:

    You're kidding, right? Even if Ferrari were providing non-doping help to a rider, they'd easily be blackballed from cycling just for using him.

    I'm not kidding, but fully appreciate that naming him as your prepatore is tantamount to career suicide these days. I do wonder why if, as the good doctor says, he just provides training advice?
  • msw
    msw Posts: 313
    BikingBernie wrote:
    Monty Zoncolan wrote:
    Didn't Ferrari say doping was as natural as drinking orange juice? Or am I confusing him with someone else.
    He said it was no more dangerous than drinking orange juice, or words to that effect.

    "EPO is not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink ten liters of orange juice."

    I don't think those are really "words to that effect" - he says it's no more dangerous than drinking ten litres of orange juice, which is presumably very dangerous. Also surely he's right (even if extremely ill-advised to put it in those terms)? EPO was after all developed as a medicine for anaemia.
    "We're not holding up traffic. We are traffic."
  • BikingBernie
    BikingBernie Posts: 2,163
    msw wrote:
    BikingBernie wrote:
    Monty Zoncolan wrote:
    Didn't Ferrari say doping was as natural as drinking orange juice? Or am I confusing him with someone else.
    He said it was no more dangerous than drinking orange juice, or words to that effect.

    "EPO is not dangerous, it's the abuse that is. It's also dangerous to drink ten liters of orange juice."
    I don't think those are really "words to that effect" - he says it's no more dangerous than drinking ten litres of orange juice, which is presumably very dangerous. Also surely he's right (even if extremely ill-advised to put it in those terms)? EPO was after all developed as a medicine for anaemia.
    Read it again, he says that it is the abuse of Epo that equates to drinking ten liters of orange juice, not simply using it.

    Epo is also more dangerous than many seem to think, even when used for therapeutic purposes.

    http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/2 ... kill-them/
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    I don't have a problem with that quote of Ferrari. He's right.

    Yet again.... "All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    A hammer is dangerous if you use it wrongly but that's not the point, Ferrari has a history of finessing on the subject of doping and he should not be welcome anyway near the sport.

    To think he's still coaching riders today should make the UCI and others sit up and demand names, he's just not "fit and proper" to be near a cyclist or other athlete. Even his own response to LeMond raises more questions than it answers.
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    I'd like to get one of his 'legitimate' training plans and see how well it works. :oops:
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,328
    DaveyL wrote:
    I don't have a problem with that quote of Ferrari. He's right.

    Yet again.... "All things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus

    Only half right. Firstly, if you take it to that level of abstraction then we can't talk about any medicine, or indeed any other substance, being dangerous. You can overdose on pure water, but it's very difficult to do (see Leah Betts for e.g.)

    Aside from that, the Paracelcius quote refers to poisoning, i.e. the direct toxicity of a substance. There are though a vast amount of substances which are known to cause little or no damage when taken in small amounts for short periods of time, but where prolonged use can lead to serious repercussions and even death. Sometimes that's due to cumulative build up of the toxin in the body, sometimes that's due to accumulative incremental damage with no repair time between doses.

    Besides all that, surely the question is whether EPO can be taken at a dose that is both useful (performance enhancing) and safe, including in the long term? While Lemond was talking about cases of e.g. sudden cardiac arrest, presumably from altering the riders physiology beyond the point which his body could sustain (which could quite plausibly be thought of as a risk associated with uncontrolled EPO abuse) there are other studies which show it to be quite strongly carcinogenic - which could be a risk associated with smaller doses rather than radically messing up physiology. As far as I'm aware, that's not a risk associated with a regular intake of orange juice.
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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,157
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Besides all that, surely the question is whether EPO can be taken at a dose that is both useful (performance enhancing) and safe, including in the long term? While Lemond was talking about cases of e.g. sudden cardiac arrest, presumably from altering the riders physiology beyond the point which his body could sustain (which could quite plausibly be thought of as a risk associated with uncontrolled EPO abuse) there are other studies which show it to be quite strongly carcinogenic - which could be a risk associated with smaller doses rather than radically messing up physiology. As far as I'm aware, that's not a risk associated with a regular intake of orange juice.

    To be fair to Ferrari (not that I want to be), his OJ quote comes from the mid 90s when the long term dangers of EPO use were largely unknown.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • takethehighroad
    takethehighroad Posts: 6,648
    I'm off to buy ten litres of orange juice, let's see how dangerous it really is
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,328
    TakeTheHighRoad wrote:
    I'm off to buy ten litres of orange juice, let's see how dangerous it really is

    You'll do your back in carrying it. Don't say you weren't warned.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,328
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Besides all that, surely the question is whether EPO can be taken at a dose that is both useful (performance enhancing) and safe, including in the long term? While Lemond was talking about cases of e.g. sudden cardiac arrest, presumably from altering the riders physiology beyond the point which his body could sustain (which could quite plausibly be thought of as a risk associated with uncontrolled EPO abuse) there are other studies which show it to be quite strongly carcinogenic - which could be a risk associated with smaller doses rather than radically messing up physiology. As far as I'm aware, that's not a risk associated with a regular intake of orange juice.

    To be fair to Ferrari (not that I want to be), his OJ quote comes from the mid 90s when the long term dangers of EPO use were largely unknown.

    Spoilsport.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 16,863
    RichN95 wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Besides all that, surely the question is whether EPO can be taken at a dose that is both useful (performance enhancing) and safe, including in the long term? While Lemond was talking about cases of e.g. sudden cardiac arrest, presumably from altering the riders physiology beyond the point which his body could sustain (which could quite plausibly be thought of as a risk associated with uncontrolled EPO abuse) there are other studies which show it to be quite strongly carcinogenic - which could be a risk associated with smaller doses rather than radically messing up physiology. As far as I'm aware, that's not a risk associated with a regular intake of orange juice.

    To be fair to Ferrari (not that I want to be), his OJ quote comes from the mid 90s when the long term dangers of EPO use were largely unknown.

    true enough I suppose

    but OTOH

    makes it an even stupider assertion if they where no long term trials from which draw upon


    instead he just makes it up as he goes along... which is what he did.
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm

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