Fairly interesting Sky article

iainf72

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/ju ... our-france?

There is no denying that large slices of humble pie have been forced down the throats of a brand new team who came to France with a budget putting them among the top four in the peloton

shakey88

Unlike some teams,they will be back all the more stronger next year having gained valuable experience and probably a few new faces too.
Plus they arer 100% drug free unlike some

William H

Harsh on EBH, who has sprinted pretty well really.

mattsy666

shakey88 wrote:

Plus they arer 100% drug free unlike some

how do you know they are 'drug free' ... marginal gains don't seem to be the difference maker so what is the secret of DB's previous successes ... a bunch of also-rans suddenly world beaters across all disciplines ... seems to me that theme has played out before ...

Jez mon

mattsy666 wrote:

shakey88 wrote:

Plus they arer 100% drug free unlike some

how do you know they are 'drug free' ... marginal gains don't seem to be the difference maker so what is the secret of DB's previous successes ... a bunch of also-rans suddenly world beaters across all disciplines ... seems to me that theme has played out before ...

Not the first and won't be the last to say this...

Marginal Gains work on the track, where you can control everything. Translating that to the road is difficult.

stagehopper

mattsy666 wrote:

how do you know they are 'drug free' ... marginal gains don't seem to be the difference maker so what is the secret of DB's previous successes ... a bunch of also-rans suddenly world beaters across all disciplines ... seems to me that theme has played out before ...

Any serious analysis of the 2008 Olympic success has to remember two things - 4 individual golds came from three riders: Hoy, Pendleton and Wiggins all long established world class performers. The two team golds came in events where Britain had a long track record (excuse the non-intentional puns) using Hoy and Wiggins as the hub of that success.

The "oddity" was the women's individual pursuit win which was a very weak year across the board - think the winning time had gone backwards by about four seconds from 2004 and other riders have gone faster in winning the worlds since.

Traditional track nations such as Australia were in a down cycle in terms of talent come 2008 - they back on the up cycle in a massive way now. Similarly the male French sprinters seemed to have a bad year but have bounced back since. In a way it was as much about the weakness of others in 2008 being exploited by Britain having a crop of good cyclists, on form, who were extremely well funded with superb facilities.

stagehopper

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jul/24/team-sky-bradley-wiggins-tour-france?

There is no denying that large slices of humble pie have been forced down the throats of a brand new team who came to France with a budget putting them among the top four in the peloton

They'll be getting a missive from Brailsford on that - he's been at pains to point out numerous times that the UCI have confirmed they have the 6th largest budget in the peloton.

Scrumple

I like their ambition...

Excellence comes from being brave, taking risks, and upsetting some people.

I'm not going to criticise them for poaching, bragging, or being different.

Roll on next year!

wicked

Jez mon wrote:

mattsy666 wrote:

shakey88 wrote:

Plus they arer 100% drug free unlike some

how do you know they are 'drug free' ... marginal gains don't seem to be the difference maker so what is the secret of DB's previous successes ... a bunch of also-rans suddenly world beaters across all disciplines ... seems to me that theme has played out before ...

Not the first and won't be the last to say this...

Marginal Gains work on the track, where you can control everything. Translating that to the road is difficult.

Tosh.
If teams or individuals do not continually attemp to improve they stagnate and go backwards. F1 is the pinnacle in racing terms, do you think they adopt your attitude and assume it's a waste of time trying to improve every area that affect performance?

wicked

Jez mon wrote:

mattsy666 wrote:

shakey88 wrote:

Plus they arer 100% drug free unlike some

how do you know they are 'drug free' ... marginal gains don't seem to be the difference maker so what is the secret of DB's previous successes ... a bunch of also-rans suddenly world beaters across all disciplines ... seems to me that theme has played out before ...

Not the first and won't be the last to say this...

Marginal Gains work on the track, where you can control everything. Translating that to the road is difficult.

Tosh.
If teams or individuals do not continually attempt to improve they stagnate and go backwards. F1 is the pinnacle in racing terms, do you think they adopt your attitude and assume it's a waste of time trying to improve every area that affect performance?

Kléber

Sky aren't the only team focussed on improving their riders

Note several teams wear tight fitting jerseys, use wind tunnels and other ways to improve. Milram was the first team on the circuit to use ice baths. The concept of marginal gains is not exclusive to Sky. I remember a feature on Channel 4's Tour coverage from 1989 when they sung the praises of the PDM team for the way it had the comfiest coach and used all sorts of recovery techniques, including accupuncture - 21 years ago.

I would have hoped for more from Sky. But many teams come along with a big budget and a fanfare and disappoint. It takes time to make a team spirit. Especially when some riders don't have a lot of faith in the team management and Yates and Sutton aren't exactly the Gary Kasparov and Bobby Fischer of the Pro Tour, their management style can make HTC's Brian Holm look gentle.

mattsy666

Kléber wrote:

Sky aren't the only team focussed on improving their riders

they must be ... they have 'professional' in their team name after all ... handily implying that everyone else is a bunch of amateurs ... amateurs that have felt Sky's ar$e all TdF mind you (yesterday's lead out and Bradley's TT today being a classic example) ...

nice kit tho ... shame the team ethos would never allow me to wear it ...

Moomaloid

They need to sign Nibali...

holybinch

mattsy666 wrote:

Kléber wrote:

Sky aren't the only team focussed on improving their riders

they must be ... they have 'professional' in their team name after all ... handily implying that everyone else is a bunch of amateurs ... amateurs that have felt Sky's ar$e all TdF mind you (yesterday's lead out and Bradley's TT today being a classic example) ...

nice kit tho ... shame the team ethos would never allow me to wear it ...

Ditto, team ethos and company they represent. Brrr...

GroupOfOne MkII

"There's a lot of enthusiasm out here. People now have a team with which they can make an emotional connection. That's something I've learnt."

That just makes me shudder. Sorry Dave, no emotional connection here, you're just another team.

BikingBernie

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2010/jul/24/team-sky-bradley-wiggins-tour-france?

According to Wiggins himself, the assessment of the man with the PhD is that he has been suffering in the last few kilometres of the major climbs.

Er, isn't that simply the point where the real racing usually starts these days?

RichN95.

mattsy666 wrote:

they must be ... they have 'professional' in their team name after all ... handily implying that everyone else is a bunch of amateurs ... amateurs that have felt Sky's ar$e all TdF mind you (yesterday's lead out and Bradley's TT today being a classic example) ...

nice kit tho ... shame the team ethos would never allow me to wear it ...

Wiggins's time trial was actually very decent - the only one of the top 50 on GC to make the top ten

hotoph88

The analysis of the track results in 2008 is right. But then with 3 men's medals for the same basic performance criteria - sprinting, wasn't Hoy was doing what the French rider did in 1996 or 2000 when he won 3 medals (was it 2 golds and a silver or 3 golds?) And then pursuit and team pursuit are similar again. Team GB got it right, just as others got it right before them. The rewards in terms of medal haul were disproportionate. On the road BC did have great successs. Cooke was at long last given a foil rather than being a one person army and suddenly she translated World Cup winning form into World medals. Pooley showed on a unique TT course that she had done her homework better than virtually everyone else.

What I just cannot understand is why Sky don't run a women's team like Cervelo or High Road. They could have all the reflected glory from Cooke and Pooley for a tiny fraction of their budget. They run the women's national squad so they have the infrastructure and since wages are near to non-existent or are non-existent on women's teams, there is no such thing as team loyalty, a team jersey is only a flag of convenience to enable participation.

mididoctors

hotoph88 wrote:

What I just cannot understand is why Sky don't run a women's team like Cervelo or High Road. They could have all the reflected glory from Cooke and Pooley for a tiny fraction of their budget. They run the women's national squad so they have the infrastructure and since wages are near to non-existent or are non-existent on women's teams, there is no such thing as team loyalty, a team jersey is only a flag of convenience to enable participation. Sky and Brailsford just seemed to miss a great chance. It would then deflect a lot of the criticism they are getting for failure to achieve on the road. As it is they have not lived up to their self generated hype and to anyone who follows women's cycling, they have acted in a misogynistic manner, which whilst not a rarity in competitive cycling circles, is hardly best practice or setting the scene right for when Brailsford starts to put the work in on the other job he receives a salary for.

thats a good post

BikingBernie

hotoph88 wrote:

they have acted in a misogynistic manner...

I can appreciate the argument for supporting a womens' team, even if the publicity it would generate would be miniscule compared to that generated by a male team actually winning the Tour. However, I think you overstate your case a little here. Would you similarly argue that Orange are guilty of misandry for promoting a women-only literature prize?

mroli

Maybe they felt they had enough on their plate for this year supporting a men's pro-race team from scratch. Certainly the track cycling programme benefits men and women, so can't see any reason why they would not do so. Also Cooke is not in contract, but aren't most of the other women?

BikingBernie

mroli wrote:

Cooke is not in contract, but aren't most of the other women?

Which might well say a lot about Cooke's ability to work as part of a team. I can't see her taking well to Brailsford's 'leadership style' either. It often seems that what she really wants is for someone to give her a barrow-load of cash to form 'Team Cooke', with everyone riding to her own greater glory.

stjohnswell

mididoctors wrote:

hotoph88 wrote:

What I just cannot understand is why Sky don't run a women's team like Cervelo or High Road. They could have all the reflected glory from Cooke and Pooley for a tiny fraction of their budget. They run the women's national squad so they have the infrastructure and since wages are near to non-existent or are non-existent on women's teams, there is no such thing as team loyalty, a team jersey is only a flag of convenience to enable participation. Sky and Brailsford just seemed to miss a great chance. It would then deflect a lot of the criticism they are getting for failure to achieve on the road. As it is they have not lived up to their self generated hype and to anyone who follows women's cycling, they have acted in a misogynistic manner, which whilst not a rarity in competitive cycling circles, is hardly best practice or setting the scene right for when Brailsford starts to put the work in on the other job he receives a salary for.

thats a good post

seconded.

Kléber

Womens cycling still requires a big outlay. Would the women get two buses? It'd be unfair if they didn't get the same support, no?

But you spend a lot of money, only to get little back in TV coverage and publicity. I'm all in favour of womens racing but I'd never hurry home to watch a race, even if it was televised.

hotoph88

[Folks sorry about the long reply - but if I make it short, I will only have to either ignore the holes lack of a comprehensive answer generates or keep on coming back to BB's ripostes.]

BB it depends what ones view is of acceptable behaviour. Your oft stated view about women's sport is that you only are entertained by sport because you want to see higher, faster stronger. Women’s sport being lesser than that of the male equivalent in these respects, generates no interest and therefore with media and commercial interests following these essential drivers – all women’s sport is an irrelevancy. There are too many holes and contradictions in that argument for me to align my views with it.

Personally, I find significantly disturbing any “social” activity that is exclusive. I extend into that arena sport. I like swimming and athletics, we get to see boys and girls compete and neither are placed in a hierarchy by some journalists who predetermines for me which human body competing I should hold in greater regard. I also love the fact that unlike women's tennis, it cannot become a fashion show. The necessity of getting to touch first drives costume design. There are no muppet comments from media idiots "Doesn't Duncan look like a fruitcake in that girls bathing hat". S*d what he or she is dressed in - I want "my" girl/boy to win - go there and do it - stick it to them. I want to leap up at the end and scream YYYEEEESSSSS. Golf gets right up my nose. Firstly it fails that fundamental – you don’t get out of breath doing it, then, for heavens sake, apparently hitting a ball with a stick, which I could do as a child – and on occasions get a hole in one in a glorified, grass based, version of roulette, it requires that I only marvel at men. The recent media feeding frenzy at St Andrews was wholly unhealthy, in any society that thinks it has progressed to a state where the “the poorest he hath ….equal to the greatest he”. Any woman, no matter her talent or charisma is prevented from access to commercial success. The character of any female participant will remain opaque to us because we never learn about her. The administration of the sport sets the foundation. This is then re-enforced by the activity and attitudes of its key competitors, which are then mirrored in the media reporting. I find the “sport” of Golf unacceptable at so many levels. Great, do it as a pastime on a Sunday morning to unwind and if in the 21st century, any twits are fool enough to join social clubs which are heavily biased with norms and standards of the views of women taken from the 18th century, then let them get on with it. However, don’t let a single penny of public money go their way and make sure their media image is that of a weird bunch, out of step with society. I find the media portrayal of golf as a “sport” with its overweight, male only, heroes presented as aspiration role models to our young, very, disturbing.

And I think in that analysis of golf, you have a summary of my views on the sport of cycling. I love the freedom the pastime has generated for me throughout my life. I love the fact that the sport exists at so many levels, right through to multi-stage road racing where there is the blend of athletic achievement, both individual and team based, as well as tactical endeavour, all set against a fantastic backdrop. Its open access to spectate adds to the egalitarian sense of the sport. This egalitarian sense has at its roots the fact that, in a previous time, the equipment needed to compete was relatively modest in cost. There was no need for a stable and fields, employment of hands to clean all the polo ponies, show jumpers etc. For very little money one could ride the same Reynolds 531 frame that Eddy used.

Thus it is like a dagger cutting deep, that the egalitarian sport I admire has made such an incredibly poor fist of assimilating female competition, during my lifetime. I cannot stand the fact that it is exclusive and the “threatened little boy” mentality that attaches to its governance and media. The more these type of individuals are pushed, the more they cling to and defend the indefensible – this is for boys only. Whilst the story from the late 1950’s through to 2000 was one of modest progression, the story 2003 on is one in which the trajectory of female competitive participation is seriously downward. The Women’s World Cup is falling apart. Races have been lost everywhere. Governance and the media are the bloody hands on the knife.

One would have to be blind not to understand that to offer commercial support to competitive cycling – male only - would be to act in a misogynistic manner. The argument about the need for money to follow press coverage is ridiculous. The unfairness is obvious, either you make a decision which exploits and re-enforces unfairness or one makes a “correct” decision and either one does not offer sponsorship or facilitate on a male only basis or one does so on the proviso that it addresses the iniquity of the status quo. To pretend that the unfairness is not there is the attitude of the golf club - “Only us boys really know how to chase that ball around the field with the stick”.

As to book prizes - I don’t know. I cannot fathom the book publishing business. I listen to the radio as the latest Booker prize is read to us and I have no understanding of the motive for the award. But then I think there are so many apocryphal tales of the latest million seller book having been touted to 50 different publishing houses and having received 50 different rejections before some obscure house picked it up and it became a success, I think- neither do the “experts”. Whatever takes ones fancy – prizes are via a lottery of selection – might as well watch golf. As to women only prizes – I am not sure that women writers are repressed in the same way that so many sports have a governance designed to prevent access by females at anything other than a token. My uninformed view is that the emancipation of female writers has been evidenced with the last 150 years of achievement. Isn’t JK Rowling the highest earning author at the current time ? I don’t think she is the exception that proves the rule. So is there some other motive for this female only prize ? Was this competition run to encourage the publishing of the female perspective on some aspect of the World that normally attracts male only authorship ? Or perhaps it is - a prize given by a group of women, for women, designed to ensure men are excluded from a highly lucrative field of exclusivity that is governed ensuring men have zero access to it.

BB, I selected my words in my first post on this thread very carefully. Since 1998 we had the proof that elite formation of the sport was infected and corrupted to the core. I am with you – Armstrong is the totem of the deception that has been swept over us. Only with his exposure will the sport heal. The other great wound is the endemic misogyny. As we observe in the drugs debate, to those who don’t want to see, there is no problem to address. BC to a greater extent as the leader and designers of the program and Sky for being corporately without spine, have lost serious amounts of credibility with myself for failing to do the right thing and run a women's team. That they can do so, when it was actually in their interests to act properly, releases an odour not unlike that generated by cycling’s other problem. Brailsford could restore his credibility by forming a women’s team for next year. I watch and will make my judgements accordingly. Since 1998 I have formed a view of the governance of our sport based on the actions of the UCI. “Floyd gets a yellow jersey for nuisance category”. Hein, I begrudge every penny of my BC membership money or any other funding that gets from the public to your coffers. The governance of this sport is a significant part of the problem of the failure to adequately address the PEDs issue.

William H

Women's cycling only gets coverage at the worlds and the olympics, and there the riders wear a national kit that his plenty of Sky branding anyway

Abdoujaparov

Hotoph, media and governance of the sport aren't simply causes of the situation you describe - they're effects of the underlying cause.

The main reasons are, our society and, even deeper than that, evolution.

There are notable exceptions where women are involved on a similar level to men in certain sports, but these tend to be either when there is no money at stake or when the sport has been cocooned in the upper and upper-middle classes in its early development(e.g. tennis).

Cumulonimbus

Just to throw something out there I'd say that tennis and athletics are the two major sports where women can compete on a comparable level to men in terms of prize money and perhaps so in terms of publicity, etc. Both these sports have major events where both sexes compete at the same time and IMHO this helps the women's event. Maybe the answer for cycling would be to have a women's tdf going along the same or similar route, maybe a day in advance say?

mididoctors

Cumulonimbus wrote:

Just to throw something out there I'd say that tennis and athletics are the two major sports where women can compete on a comparable level to men in terms of prize money and perhaps so in terms of publicity, etc. Both these sports have major events where both sexes compete at the same time and IMHO this helps the women's event. Maybe the answer for cycling would be to have a women's tdf going along the same or similar route, maybe a day in advance say?

same day shorter stages set off earlier?

the silly caravan is the problem

mididoctors

better idea for starters

a 7 day event in the 2nd week finishes earlier

or epic one day races on the rest days?

Jez mon

wicked wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

mattsy666 wrote:

shakey88 wrote:

Plus they arer 100% drug free unlike some

how do you know they are 'drug free' ... marginal gains don't seem to be the difference maker so what is the secret of DB's previous successes ... a bunch of also-rans suddenly world beaters across all disciplines ... seems to me that theme has played out before ...

Not the first and won't be the last to say this...

Marginal Gains work on the track, where you can control everything. Translating that to the road is difficult.

Tosh.
If teams or individuals do not continually attempt to improve they stagnate and go backwards. F1 is the pinnacle in racing terms, do you think they adopt your attitude and assume it's a waste of time trying to improve every area that affect performance?

Huh?

Seriously where have I said that teams shouldn't bother improving on performance :?

My point is that it is difficult to translate the marginal gains ethos, from the track where gains in performance are very easy to measure and the race results easy to predict, to the road where gains in performance are (slightly) less tangible and race results much harder to predict.

Think about it, on the track if you are training for the pursuit, you can replicate the pursuit exactly, you just can't get the same effect training for road races...