Rest day 2 *SPOILER*

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  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    the green jersey is a fine competitive event..

    awarding points in bunch sprints down to 25th place is sensible... think about it

    as for Thor in green in Paris despite only winning a single stage is fine by me.. the fact the competition can be won a different number of ways is a good thing..

    anyhow I suspect Ale jet is going to win it...thou the champs Elysee is a strange/unpredictable sprint as the lead out is often split on the final chicane...
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    mididoctors wrote:

    awarding points in bunch sprints down to 25th place is sensible... think about it

    Do explain. Half of the top 25 aren't trying for a position. They're lead-out men and whoever happens to be near the front of the bunch.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    RichN95 wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:

    awarding points in bunch sprints down to 25th place is sensible... think about it

    Do explain. Half of the top 25 aren't trying for a position. They're lead-out men and whoever happens to be near the front of the bunch.

    yeah so what would happen if you only awarded the first 6 or 10?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • Pokerface
    Pokerface Posts: 7,960
    mididoctors wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:

    awarding points in bunch sprints down to 25th place is sensible... think about it

    Do explain. Half of the top 25 aren't trying for a position. They're lead-out men and whoever happens to be near the front of the bunch.

    yeah so what would happen if you only awarded the first 6 or 10?

    Then Cav would win the Green Jersey easily. :)
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited July 2010
    mididoctors wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:

    awarding points in bunch sprints down to 25th place is sensible... think about it

    Do explain. Half of the top 25 aren't trying for a position. They're lead-out men and whoever happens to be near the front of the bunch.

    yeah so what would happen if you only awarded the first 6 or 10?

    Well only they would get points. But I was thinking more along the lines of 12-15 and making the gaps between the first three and the others bigger.

    So rather than the current: 35,30,26,24,22,20,19,18,17,16 etc

    I would change it to: 35,25,15,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. (so top 13 only).

    That way there's more of an incentive in going for the top three rather than playing it safe.

    This year we had both Cav and Farrar crashing on stage 1. It makes it hard for them to claw back the deficit against a guy willing to settle for 5th or 6th, who can climb moderately well. With my way, a win puts them right back in the game. It would also bring riders like Chavanel into the equation.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Tom Butcher
    Tom Butcher Posts: 3,830
    The green jersey adds a bit of interest to the race so I'm not knocking it - I just don't see the logic in it.

    If it's a sprinters jersey then why get points for finishing high up on mountain stages. If it's a jersey for consistent finishing then why do the flat stages get prioritised by having more points on offer ?

    I'd rather see it more as a pure sprinters jersey - give more weight to finishing in the top spots on stages that are likely to be contested by the sprinters and make the intermediates fit in with that by not sticking them after cat 1 or HC climbs.
    it's a hard life if you don't weaken.
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    edited July 2010
    RichN95 wrote:

    I would change it to: 35,25,15,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. (so top 13 only).
    no you are missing the point I'm trying to steer you towards..

    the problem is if you weight the points heavily towards the front and/or reduce the number of guys in the points the effect of blocking tactics (deliberate or accidental) starts to be overly dominant.

    the sprints are controversial and dangerous enough as it is
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    Tom Butcher wrote:
    The green jersey adds a bit of interest to the race so I'm not knocking it - I just don't see the logic in it.

    If it's a sprinters jersey then why get points for finishing high up on mountain stages. If it's a jersey for consistent finishing then why do the flat stages get prioritised by having more points on offer ?

    .

    because contador, schleck and co would win it by default for being up on GC
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    Tom Butcher wrote:
    The green jersey adds a bit of interest to the race so I'm not knocking it - I just don't see the logic in it.

    If it's a sprinters jersey then why get points for finishing high up on mountain stages. If it's a jersey for consistent finishing then why do the flat stages get prioritised by having more points on offer ?

    The green jersey is what it is, a general classement on points, rather than a general classement on time. Just like you need certain qualities for the yellow jersey (climbing, TTing, consistency) you need them for the green jersey:a fast sprint and consistency. It's not a prize for the best sprinter.

    I think the Green jersey works fine - there's mostly good battles for green with some of the best riders involved. It's the polka dot that needs sorting out. With all due respect, and realizing it's good for French cycling and all, but Anthony Charteau?
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    FJS wrote:
    Tom Butcher wrote:
    The green jersey adds a bit of interest to the race so I'm not knocking it - I just don't see the logic in it.

    If it's a sprinters jersey then why get points for finishing high up on mountain stages. If it's a jersey for consistent finishing then why do the flat stages get prioritised by having more points on offer ?

    The green jersey is what it is, a general classement on points, rather than a general classement on time. Just like you need certain qualities for the yellow jersey (climbing, TTing, consistency) you need them for the green jersey:a fast sprint and consistency. It's not a prize for the best sprinter.

    I think the Green jersey works fine - there's mostly good battles for green with some of the best riders involved. It's the polka dot that needs sorting out. With all due respect, and realizing it's good for French cycling and all, but Anthony Charteau?

    +1 on the polka dot

    they have fiddled with the jersey points a bit which has made a bit better...

    its more a suicide breakaway jersey than a mountains jersey... been a decent battle this year and charteau has had to ride hard to defend it..not just nip out the front of bunch to nick the points all tour long after 1 long breakaway stage virenque style..

    this year you have to go down the road repeatably
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • jibberjim
    jibberjim Posts: 2,810
    mididoctors wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    the problem is if you weight the points heavily towards the front and/or reduce the number of guys in the points the effect of blocking tactics (deliberate or accidental) starts to be overly dominant.

    And you also have the points being gobbled up by breakaway. A sprint for 7th down is worthwhile if there's points down, but if you're sprinting for only 3 points because the 6 man break took the rest it's pretty meaningless.

    So you'd get even more negative riding from the sprinters teams shutting down breaks.
    Jibbering Sports Stuff: http://jibbering.com/sports/
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    mididoctors wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:

    I would change it to: 35,25,15,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. (so top 13 only).
    no you are missing the point I'm trying to steer you towards..

    the problem is if you weight the points heavily towards the front and/or reduce the number of guys in the points the effect of blocking tactics (deliberate or accidental) starts to be overly dominant.

    the sprints are controversial and dangerous enough as it is

    I don't think that would happen though.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Why not make the polka dot jersey like a GC, but only on time spent on catagorised climbs?

    So say, Contador would have the lowest overall time spent going uphill?
    _
  • skavanagh.bikeradar
    skavanagh.bikeradar Posts: 1,097
    Interesting, but would become hard to police especially on the 4th and 3rd cat hills put in the first week to give the jersey a start. What are the issues with the polka dot jersey?

    For one thing the conservative tactics of the top 20 on GC ruin it as decent climbers that ride mostly in the first group or two just try to 'protect' their 19th place finish. At one time these are the riders that would be trying to win it. Of course the Virenque/US Postal tactics did a lot of harm to the esteem in which it is held.

    The most obvious way to ensure that anyone trying to win it is riding at the front at the end of mountain stages is to make the points at the top of the final climb of the day, especially if it is a summit finish, worth loads more than the others which they already do, but perhaps the weighting needs to be even more skewed to the final climbs? That and reduce points for the other categorised climbs and for 1st cat or HC's that aren't the final climb or come before a particular point in the stage.

    Dunno, but it has lost some of its allure for the riders. Having said that at least someone is racing for it this year and particularly today.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Given the fate of most of the recent polka dot jersey winners, I'm surprised anyone wants to win the damn thing!
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    RichN95 wrote:
    mididoctors wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:

    I would change it to: 35,25,15,10,9,8,7,6,5,4,3,2,1. (so top 13 only).
    no you are missing the point I'm trying to steer you towards..

    the problem is if you weight the points heavily towards the front and/or reduce the number of guys in the points the effect of blocking tactics (deliberate or accidental) starts to be overly dominant.

    the sprints are controversial and dangerous enough as it is

    I don't think that would happen though.

    the carnage to get into the top 3?

    jibberjams point about the need to shut down breaks is interesting... fewer riders scoring on the line may lead to both increased effort to shut down breaks but also the ease of defending a lead by doing nothing increases as well
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:
    Interesting, but would become hard to police especially on the 4th and 3rd cat hills put in the first week to give the jersey a start. What are the issues with the polka dot jersey?

    For one thing the conservative tactics of the top 20 on GC ruin it as decent climbers that ride mostly in the first group or two just try to 'protect' their 19th place finish. At one time these are the riders that would be trying to win it. Of course the Virenque/US Postal tactics did a lot of harm to the esteem in which it is held.

    The most obvious way to ensure that anyone trying to win it is riding at the front at the end of mountain stages is to make the points at the top of the final climb of the day, especially if it is a summit finish, worth loads more than the others which they already do, but perhaps the weighting needs to be even more skewed to the final climbs? That and reduce points for the other categorised climbs and for 1st cat or HC's that aren't the final climb or come before a particular point in the stage.

    Dunno, but it has lost some of its allure for the riders. Having said that at least someone is racing for it this year and particularly today.

    You could provide a few 'bonus' mountain jersey seconds at the top of each climb?

    It's a sure fire way to get the actual best 'climber' of the Tour. Difference is, that it would not necessarily be competed for, just given as a side effect, which is less cool.
    _
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Why do we have to find the ‘best climber’ or to encourage that ’anyone trying to win it (the polka dot jersey) is riding at the front at the end of mountain stages’? It’s just a race, we’re not assigning someone a title like World’s Absolute Best Climber 2010.

    Rather than make changes to ensure the best climber wins the jersey, which other posters are suggesting, I’d go in the other direction and try and open up the competition more by making less differentiation in points able to be won.
    E.g. instead of the first at the top getting 20, 15, 10, 4 and 3 points for the different climb classes (HC, 1st Cat, 2nd Cat, 3rd Cat and 4th Cat), I’d change it to 20, 17, 14, 11 and 8.

    Similarly, on the points jersey, I wouldn’t give different points to the winners of different stages, as now the case (35, 25, 20, for respectively a flat, moderate and difficult stages, difficult being like today’s), but have the same for every stage. This would lead to the green jersey being less of a sprinter’s jersey, which is how I think it should be (i.e. less).

    I would also make a separate intermediate points competition, rather than include points gained at intermediate sprints in the green jersey, and I’d add more intermediate sprints, so that it effectively became a competition which might reward breakaways.
    I think there used to be a separate intermediate sprint competition/jersey in the TdF, but I don’t know when it was stopped.
    There is a competition with prize, although not a jersey, for breakaways in the Giro but it’s more (i.e. too) complicated, being based on how many kms the breakaway escapes for.

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