Why is MTBing so male-dominated?

climbingpixie

Wow, lots of replies!! Sorry for not getting back on the thread sooner - I had a computer virus last week that pretty much shut down my laptop and then I went off to the Lakes for the weekend - with the bike of course

I'm pretty much in agreement with Thewaylander, that attitude is the biggest factor that holds women back. So many women I know seem to perceive themselves as weak and helpless and indeed play up to that, either in an attempt to make themselves more attractive/less threatening to men or just to live up to society's definition of femininity (or to avoid putting in any effort). In some ways I think the growing trend of providing women's skills courses and women's maintenance courses actually plays up to and reinforces the stereotype that women can't participate on an equal basis to men. I'm all for learning in supportive and non-competitive environments, I just don't see why they need to be single sex...? Most guys I know also like learning in that kind of environment!

Alitodd's point about 'bikes' and 'women's bikes' is a good one too and I think the existence of the women's forum on this site is a prime example of alienating women from the mainstream of the sport. I can't imagine that my experiences of biking are that wildly different to those of a bloke, or necessarily that similar to those of another woman - I don't get why the possession of a vagina means I need a special place to discuss these?

Twonk

Society generally puts males and females into two groups.

In Western culture, for instance, males are deemed to be more logically (mechanically?) minded, workers, stronger, etc. This probably stems from the distant past where it was realised that males were physically more powerful than females (no argument here; it's a fact).

This is reinforced from a young age; toy guns and cars for boys (worker role), dolls and dresses for girls (mother role).
Obviously, for those that comply to this template (which most of us do, whether we know it or not), the male's progression into liking big cars, real guns, mechanically related subjects, is the most logical path to follow on entering adulthood.

With this simple concept in mind, it's clear why the MTB scene is mostly male-orientated.

If society were at a stage where the sex of a person wasn't the crux of their upbringing and long-term gender role expectations, then the division wouldn't exist, and neither would the two separate sex groups.

I guess!

Bling Bling

climbingpixie

I don't get why the possession of a vagina means I need a special place to discuss these?

Different saddle advice?

We are different though, it is true in every other sport, so it is true in mtbing. I'm not going to go around pretending I can "compete with the boys," quite frankly I just don't have the sideburns to pull it off.

Acknowledging that you're female isn't the same as saying you're weak or not equal. I like being able to chat to other women about women specific elements of the sport (eg. could you imagine asking a guy for advice on sports bras?), or even just for some encouragement from other women. I like that there is a women's forum on this site, it's the reason I joined.

climbingpixie

Bling Bling wrote:

We are different though, it is true in every other sport, so it is true in mtbing. I'm not going to go around pretending I can "compete with the boys," quite frankly I just don't have the sideburns to pull it off.

Yes, but the reason you can't 'compete with the boys' isn't because you're a woman, it's because of personal characterics that you have as an individual. I've been out in mixed groups where I'm the slow one tagging along at the back but that's because I'm inexperienced and unfit, not because of my gender. Conversely I've also been out in mixed groups where I've overtaken people and been the one waiting for a slower rider to catch up. I'm not saying that people have to aspire to be the best or that you should want to improve or 'compete with the boys' but I take issue with anyone using gender as an excuse.

Acknowledging that you're female isn't the same as saying you're weak or not equal. I like being able to chat to other women about women specific elements of the sport (eg. could you imagine asking a guy for advice on sports bras?), or even just for some encouragement from other women. I like that there is a women's forum on this site, it's the reason I joined.

Horses for courses I guess and the fact that we're disagreeing on the value of a women's forum goes to show that sharing the same gender doesn't mean that we will share the same needs and wants. I'm not saying you should ask a bloke for advice on sports bras but what's the harm of posting a women's specific question on a general gear forum? Do men have a special forum if they want to discuss bloke's bike shorts or how to avoid numb bits? FWIW on the climbing forum I use there have been some interesting and lengthy discussions on mooncups and shewees on the general gear forums where men have actually made good contributions based on their second hand experiences of these female specific products.

Anonymous

Grondel wrote:

This is reinforced from a young age; toy guns and cars for boys (worker role), dolls and dresses for girls (mother role).
Obviously, for those that comply to this template (which most of us do, whether we know it or not), the male's progression into liking big cars, real guns, mechanically related subjects, is the most logical path to follow on entering adulthood.

With this simple concept in mind, it's clear why the MTB scene is mostly male-orientated.

If society were at a stage where the sex of a person wasn't the crux of their upbringing and long-term gender role expectations, then the division wouldn't exist, and neither would the two separate sex groups.

I guess!

It's more complex than that though. There have been some very limited experiments done, and the results seemed to suggest that the girls will basically turn out as girls, no matter what toys they are given to play with.
I think the current belief about why girls play with dolls is because they tend to have a more innate "nurturing" side to their personality than boys, and that really is linked to their sex.

Twonk

yeehaamcgee wrote:

It's more complex than that though. There have been some very limited experiments done, and the results seemed to suggest that the girls will basically turn out as girls, no matter what toys they are given to play with.
I think the current belief about why girls play with dolls is because they tend to have a more innate "nurturing" side to their personality than boys, and that really is linked to their sex.

Yeah.

Having the birthing of infants tied to the female requires some base level instincts to exist in order to form a "bond", without which most young would perish.

That's why I pointed out that males are stronger than females also, too; it goes deeper than we're aware of. Nature's balancing act at work, for sure.

Society simply builds on the foundations; nature and nuture both play their parts. I don't really buy into it being one or the other exclusively.

Gazlar

climbingpixie wrote:

Horses for courses I guess and the fact that we're disagreeing on the value of a women's forum goes to show that sharing the same gender doesn't mean that we will share the same needs and wants. I'm not saying you should ask a bloke for advice on sports bras but what's the harm of posting a women's specific question on a general gear forum? Do men have a special forum if they want to discuss bloke's bike shorts or how to avoid numb bits? FWIW on the climbing forum I use there have been some interesting and lengthy discussions on mooncups and shewees on the general gear forums where men have actually made good contributions based on their second hand experiences of these female specific products.

I agree with that, if you aren't seen as the mainstream then you have your own channel you do in a way alienate yourself. The same could be said for things like the asian network on BBC radio, is there a need for it, or would the music and the culture of it be better served integrating it into the mainstream channels. The same could be said for women specific sections. I dont begrudge that area, but come and join in in general chat, or in the crudcatcher more. The crudcatcher gets quite blokey and sometimes a bit letchy (in a fun way)at times but no one would be bothered if a womans persepective was brought up more, in fact, it provides good fun and banter

Speaking as a person who looks after the admin of a mountain biking group. I would love us to have more female members, and not in a bloke perving kind of way, but in the fact that I'd like more members from more different backgrounds enjoying what is a wonderful sport. A lot of the guys who I started the group for, like me, were really new to the sport, but we didn't want our group as one for just newbies. The way you learn is by riding with all kinds of riders, experienced riders can pass on advice and skills, whereas improving riders can also pass on stuff, but are more in tune to how hard it can be to pick up skills. All we ask is that people respect the differences in abilities on our rides and remember we are riding as a group, so you may have to stop and wait for people on occasion, but what does that matter if we are enjoying each other's comapny

The thing I love about MTB is that, I am really competetive when it comes to sport, but mountain biking I see as social excercise rather than a sport as such. I enjoy the thrill of pushing myself to my abilities, but i also enjoy meeting the new people we have met in the last 12 months, be they female or male, let us all join together to enjoy this sport

miss notax

climbingpixie wrote:

In some ways I think the growing trend of providing women's skills courses and women's maintenance courses actually plays up to and reinforces the stereotype that women can't participate on an equal basis to men. I'm all for learning in supportive and non-competitive environments, I just don't see why they need to be single sex...? Most guys I know also like learning in that kind of environment!

Actually, I disagree with this....

I participate in lots of male dominated sports apart from MTBing (sailing, motorsport the main ones) and I have worked in very male dominated environments (RN Officer), and I would agree that women can most definitely participate on an equal basis to men. However, in my opinion, men and women learn in very different ways. Blokes learning a new skill will all be trying to out-do each other and do it bigger / better, whilst waiting for someone (not them!) to have a spectacular off or something to chuckle about. Ladies tend to be a lot more supportive and will all wnat to do it well, rather than trying to beat each other.

I have just completed a ladies only MTBing course and I honestly found it easier and more productive for me to learn new skills in that environment that a mixed one. Does it mean that i'm pitching myself at a different level to the chaps? No. I'm happy to take on anyone

Anyway, i'm rambling. I guess i'm trying to say that I don't think the whole 'womens course' thing is related to the end result, but more about the way we learn.

Gazlar

I have to say I do agree with climbing pixie on that note, It would b refreshing to learn on the style of course you went on miss notax. I agree when it comes to blokes and bravado, thats the way it does tend to happen, but its not the right way, certainly not initially. I saw a guy leading a course at Cwmcarn recently and he just barked out orders to newbies. Thats not saying all male instructors are like that though.

I think the argument here is less about the fact of being male or female, just more about people having the courtesy to support rather than egg on so to speak.Jjust a quick query, would you have felt as comfortable if that ethos of learning had been reinforced into the course and there had been either male learners there or a male instructor?

miss notax

gazderry wrote:

I have to say I do agree with climbing pixie on that note, It would b refreshing to learn on the style of course you went on miss notax. I agree when it comes to blokes and bravado, thats the way it does tend to happen, but its not the right way, certainly not initially. I saw a guy leading a course at Cwmcarn recently and he just barked out orders to newbies. Thats not saying all male instructors are like that though.

I think the argument here is less about the fact of being male or female, just more about people having the courtesy to support rather than egg on so to speak.Jjust a quick query, would you have felt as comfortable if that ethos of learning had been reinforced into the course and there had been either male learners there or a male instructor?

It was a male instructor

Before this course I would actually have purposely booked a mixed course (the ladies only skills course was a pressie) - but having completed it, I think I personally prefer learning in that kind of environment. I obviously have no problem learning with blokes (as I have in the past), but experience tells me that the 'feel' of the course / group would change as a result.

I also strongly suspect that some ladies (not all and i'm not including myself in this) would ONLY feel happy learning in a women-only environment because they don't want to make a fool of themselves in front of blokes.

Gazlar

thats fair comment. I suppose it does highlight the fact that its more down to personal preference, there are women that respond better in this environment, and men who would like to learn in this way, and then guys who would only want to be around the lads etc etc

The key to it is allowing as diverse a way to both enter mountain biking and develop your skills too, but also not have a them and us feel to things. I think the same sort of perceievd divides exist between downhillers and xc riders and other groups too, but the reality is that everyone really gets along

Its just so nice when all sorts of people to enjoy this malarkey, its one of those sports that has the ability to be so social

miss notax

Wholeheartedly agree

Gazlar

me too, lol

this is what I mean, i have no problems with there being a womens specific section to these forums, but I hope that no-one feels that they must chat in there because they are a woman.
I do the bulk of my chatting in the crudcatcher, mainly because I don't take too much too seriously, but its nice to get more and more people in there and mingling whether they be male or female.

andyrm

Another aspect that’s overlooked (and for the record I’m not lumping all shops in here) is that I’ve seen lots of cases where women riders are “blinded by science” by mechanics in their LBS – the “Kwik Fit Disease”, thus keeping them technically ignorant and so spending money unnecessarily and also remaining reliant on them for little jobs they could easily do themselves.

As a result, they remain intimidated by the thought of any bike maintenance type issues, in turn feeding the false impression of maintaining a bike being really difficult.

gb2gw

I have to say andyrm, that's not just a problem for women (although admittedly probably worse for the ladies) judging by a recent experience in our LBS.

While I was trying on shorts in the changing room, hubby Steve overheard this customer (a guy) asking the sales bloke about something fairly basic that he wanted to attempt to fix himself. Apparently the sales guy wouldn't have any of it and told him he'd be better off getting them to sort it as it was quite complicated.
Steve (who previously worked as a bike mechanic so knows his shiz) was quietly seething that they were being so dismissive as the solution was an easy quick-fix anyone could have a go at. He very nearly went up to the bloke and had a quiet word in his ear...!

But that's a separate issue I think - bike shops liking to keep people technically iggerunt.

There's certainly some interesting and thought-provoking discussion on this thread - I'd never really stopped to think about the differences before and the reasons behind them.

Gazlar

yep, Ive had that experience myself in my LBS who told me that I'd be stupid trying to change a headset myself as I'd never done one before and that for 30 notes theyd change it and it would be the best 30 quid I'd ever spend. Fortunately it just made me more determined to do it myself, but It can be daunting people doing their own fettling.

Mrs Toast

Horses for courses I guess and the fact that we're disagreeing on the value of a women's forum goes to show that sharing the same gender doesn't mean that we will share the same needs and wants. I'm not saying you should ask a bloke for advice on sports bras but what's the harm of posting a women's specific question on a general gear forum?

Because asking for advice about bras in the general gear section would probably result in requests for pictures…

Thewaylander

Bling Bling wrote:

climbingpixie

I don't get why the possession of a vagina means I need a special place to discuss these?

Different saddle advice?

We are different though, it is true in every other sport, so it is true in mtbing. I'm not going to go around pretending I can "compete with the boys," quite frankly I just don't have the sideburns to pull it off.

Acknowledging that you're female isn't the same as saying you're weak or not equal. I like being able to chat to other women about women specific elements of the sport (eg. could you imagine asking a guy for advice on sports bras?), or even just for some encouragement from other women. I like that there is a women's forum on this site, it's the reason I joined.

Not sure i agree on the whole.

At the professional level the very top its possible that women can not compete on equal terms as size and power begin to have more effect at them speeds.

But Personally I am no slouch, I rarely get overtaken on my local trail (Cwm Carn) and am never overtaken on the downs, But a woman we ride with (who is a prettty elegant lass) aboslutely takes me apart these days, i can remember her when she started 3 years back pushing herself hard, now on the downs and technmical stuff she is one of the fastest "people" i know bar her fella who rides downhill races too.

Most woman can compete with the boys I've seen it done and been on the receiving end of an ass kicking. But most Ladies I have met make excuses then jsut don't try and push themselves.

roger_merriman

there are lots of good reasons why.

ones that could make life easier are other halfs not riding off up hills on his nice bike while lady struggles with a hire bike made of pig iron....

Thewaylander

roger merriman wrote:

there are lots of good reasons why.

ones that could make life easier are other halfs not riding off up hills on his nice bike while lady struggles with a hire bike made of pig iron....

That though is a good demotivator for person an well pointed out.

BigShot

I'm quite lucky that my LBS is more than happy to do work for me, and at a pretty low price, and equally happy to give me the odd pointer to do it myself. I don't think I'd use a shop that tried to mystify maintenance in order to get more bikes in their workshop.


gb2gw - I've been in similar situations before and actually DID have a quiet word. I usually probe a bit to see if the advice is welcome first, but it's never been badly recieved.


I think the "blinded by science" thing is a pretty big issue, and not just on the maintenance front either. I'm looking at mountain bikes with the missus (for her) now, I'm pretty out of touch with bike tech these days but at least have a basic grasp. Just half an hour ago she said something along the lines of "they all look the same". They all have a huge list of parts in the spec, but the only difference she (and I assume many, many others, male and female alike) can see is colour and price.
I'm not so sure there's an easy fix (which doesn't rely on a biking other that knows 'his' stuff) for that short of some incredibly helpful and honest sales folk in the bike shops.


roger - I've been in that situation... not so much riding off, but alongside and having a very easy time of it... as soon as I realised that the gearing on her pig iron bike was far too tall for her to climb something that didn't even have me on the granny ring... I got her to swap bikes.

Hers was an absolute horror to get up hills. In the lowest gear I had to stand on the pedals to get up some relatively short and tame ups.

I think if most fellas in that situation had a go on the missus' bike for a short while they'd have her straight down the shop picking out a nice lightweight, pink*, flowery* number to replace it. That's exactly what's happening with me and my girlfriend. She's trying to restrain me on budget... I'm trying to persuade her to aim higher... I expect well meet in the middle on a decent bike she'll be able to enjoy riding.

The other bonus of getting on my bike was that even though it's far too big (I'm 6'2", she's 5'5") the easier gearing at the low end made it really clear that it wasn't her fitness, but her bike that was the problem... that wasn't at all obvious to her until then. The quick spin on my bike (before she decided she'd rather ride a heavy bike with hard gearing than a light, easy geared one that was too big) has pretty much killed off the "I'm just not fit enough" mentality and really encouraged her to have a proper go at the sport. Win!


* I jest, obviously! :P

Bling Bling

Just to clarify, as a few people have taken my "competing with the boys" comment the wrong way - I'm not using it as an excuse not to push myself, I do push myself, I just don't have a masculine competitive attitude.

I suppose what I was really saying (in a dry humour sort of way, which doesn't really translate well on the internet) is that I'm not a big fan of this idea that for women to consider themselves equal to men, they should feel the need to compete or be better than men, or be included as one of the lads. I don't think it has much to do with physical fitness or ability, it is an attitude thing.

BigShot

Couldn't agree more, Bling.
In no way do women need to stop being women or try to be a guy, or match themselves against guys, to be equal.

On bikes and boards I've always ridden with people better (fitter, more technically able and more "balls out") than me and it's really helped me progress... but male or female I've never felt I had to be better than them to be equal.

I've taken my turn being the first to drop into an untracked powder chute on my snowboard even when riding with 4 girls and a guy, at least 3 of whom were far, far better riders than me.

I think, (genders reversed obviously) that's the kind of thing you're getting at, right?

Thewaylander

I'm not talking about being competetive with men ont he trail.

But just riding as an equal. Alot of the attitude of I don't have to compete with men is all a pretence i feel. the group of riders i often ride with involves a woman or two. they are treated the same as the blokes, they go as far and ride the same. My point was more to illustrate the using the i'm not as good/or competing with a man as an excuse just not to try if you see? when really they just shouldn't be worrying about it at all and just getting stuck in as another rider.

If a bloke flies down something and you don't the attitude is how did they do that was the technique, and then do it or crash or bail because it actually truly is beyonde the ability scale.

Not that I'm saying this applies to yourselves of course, but it is what I have seen of a lot of ladies on the trail before they give up.

mea00csf

the other thing of course is, unless you're comfortable being around a bunch of blokes you're not going to get into mountain biking, it's not as though there are loads of womens groups to tag along with.

I spend most of my time with men, i did design tech, maths and physics at a-level, engineering at uni and am a consultant engineer by profession, so sociallising with men isn't a big deal to me, it's more "normal" and comfortable to me than socialising with women, but i doubt it's like that for most. So turning up to a club night, even a slowest cyclist/social club ride is going to be daunting to a lot of women and they just wouldn't do. And not knowing other women who cycle, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.