Annoyed a cyclist today-didn't take much.

sturmey

Commuted to work today by bicycle as usual. however this has nothing to do with my own cycling experience.My job requires me to drive while at work.
So am out in the car about 4.45pm in the Chorlton area. Approach traffic lights on wide dual carriageway signalling red. Stop car, not really noticing the green cycle box in front of the stop line and, to my eternal shame, i stopped the car half way into the box.As did the car on my right.No cyclists about though.Traffic very light.

Male commuter on blue (Isaac?) road bike(not a young man by any means) and rear pannier approaches from behind, filters through the middle of the two cars and proceeds to wag finger and shake head at myself and the other driver while pointing somewhat petulantly at the cycle box. Neither driver responded in any way to upset him.
He then positions himself 12 inches in front of me square in the middle of my front bumper,despite there being a more than generous gap to my left. So when the lights changed I had to wait for him to wobble off while he asserted his absolute right to be on that part of the road.
Anyway,this has nothing to do with his right to be on the road or his right to use the cycle box or any of that other nonsense.
My question is about his level of commonsense, or lack of it. He is commuting through a busy inner city area, populated by some fairly aggressive drivers who are anything but pro cycling yet he clearly has few qualms about risking antagonising drivers(decent ones as it turns out this time) by making provocative gestures and placing himself physically in a position on the road where he is likely to come into conflict with them.
Perhaps he has led a charmed life. Perhaps next time he does this he will meet someone less tolerant of cyclists to whom violent road rage is seen as a mere peccadillo.Perhaps then he will learn that being a cyclist in itself does not bestow on him some degree of saintliness which renders him immune to physical harm.
I fear for his long-term future as an inner city cyclist if this is all it takes for him to unleash his indignation on motorists.

iPete

Reminds me of the guy with the HD video camera who cycled into the back of a car because he wanted to tell everyone off.

Not worth it for many many reasons.

-liam-

I've actually crossed paths on two separate occasions with a couple of cyclists recently that appear to be wearing big fat chips on their shoulders. Both were firmly planted roughly half way to two thirds of the way across the left hand lane, clearly making sure that no motorists can pass them unless they have a clear opportunity to pass whilst 100% in opposing lane. Now, being a cyclist myself, I always give other cyclists plenty of room but even I know that I don't need to be as far across as these chaps appeared to be demanding. Indeed, sometimes it is just not practical. The first chap turned off and I let it go. The second chap I did tag at a junction and wound my window down. I told him that a bus could pass down the gap he was leaving on the inside. He went on the attack straight away..."I've a right to ride safely on the road blah blah blah" I lost my cool a bit and told him he had a "f***ing duty to pay consideration to other road users" and if he carries on, he'll end up being hit by something that doesnt think he deserves the respect that I initially would of given him.

The more this happens, the more cyclists will lose. Apply a little common sense and be safe.

The Chingford Skinhead

Blimey, have I passed into a parallel universe.

Sturney - you say you didn't notice the big green box on the floor as you approached the lights. Isn't paying due care and attention a part of being a considerate driver. He had every right to point out that you were in the box and every right to position himself so that you saw him. So he delayed you by a few seconds - so what? Why should he ride in the gutter or in a more dangerous position just so you can race to your destination a full five seconds faster. As for it being a rough area - hats off to the guy. it is becuase so many people have let aggressive and rude people get away by being shrinking violets that those same people now dominate our roads and society.

Liam - would you have reacted the same if the cyclist had instead been a horse, a tractor, a bus, a lorry... not letting you pass until it was SAFE to do so. You don't say if there were parked cars to his left - perhaps he was avoiding being doored. Perhaps he didn't want to weave in and out of areas of parked cars and cycle lane. Again, how much was your journey delayed by, 30 seconds, a minute? Was that lenght of delay more important than his safety or encouraging other people to take up cycling without the fear of being abused by some irate driver at the next set of lights having the gall to lecture them on consideration for other road users.

Sheesh!

sturmey

Blimey, have I passed into a parallel universe

It would seem that way.
Poor you...

-liam-

The Chingford Skinhead wrote:

Liam - would you have reacted the same if the cyclist had instead been a horse, a tractor, a bus, a lorry... not letting you pass until it was SAFE to do so. You don't say if there were parked cars to his left - perhaps he was avoiding being doored. Perhaps he didn't want to weave in and out of areas of parked cars and cycle lane. Again, how much was your journey delayed by, 30 seconds, a minute? Was that lenght of delay more important than his safety or encouraging other people to take up cycling without the fear of being abused by some irate driver at the next set of lights having the gall to lecture them on consideration for other road users.

Sheesh!

If he was passing parked car etc etc I would of said. It hard to explain the geography of the road but it made thing difficult for a good half a mile and a 10mph,that is a frustrating period of time. I'm a sensible chap and a sensible driver and on both occasions these cyclists for want of a better word were being cocks.... Obviously I'm a cyclist but I'm considerate enough to show respect for drivers, knowing how frustrating it is getting stuck behind a cyclist or even a horse as you point out lol and that in turn, that frustration can lead to the driver making rash decisions and perhaps ending up hurting the cyclist. Clearly this chap didn't think of that as a consideration. Its as much for his own safety as anything else.

Heaven forgive me saying anything negative about cyclists again, but sometimes you need to see thing from both points of view

Anonymous

sturmey - I basicly agree with your point, there are definitely some cyclists out there with a chip on their shoulder, this chap sounds like a right knob.

What I always find strange is that we always describe road users by what they're 'doing', for example cyclists, peds, taxi drivers, bus drivers, white van men(or women).

I see things a bit different. You have two groups - considerate people and non-considerate people.

A considerate car driver will wait to pass, a considerate cyclist will pull over slightly to make it easier for the car to pass.

And what's with all this wagging fingers and shaking heads disapprovingly? Now I completely support your right to 'have a go' at someone if they actively do something to endanger you. But quite frankly if they haven't...

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

And if you do feel the need to bollock people for every little mistake they make, perhaps consider a career as a Traffic Warden, or Community Support Officer.

spen666

sturmey wrote:

Commuted to work today by bicycle as usual. however this has nothing to do with my own cycling experience.My job requires me to drive while at work.
So am out in the car about 4.45pm in the Chorlton area. Approach traffic lights on wide dual carriageway signalling red. Stop car, not really noticing the green cycle box in front of the stop line and, to my eternal shame, i stopped the car half way into the box.As did the car on my right.No cyclists about though.Traffic very light.

Male commuter on blue (Isaac?) road bike(not a young man by any means) and rear pannier approaches from behind, filters through the middle of the two cars and proceeds to wag finger and shake head at myself and the other driver while pointing somewhat petulantly at the cycle box. Neither driver responded in any way to upset him.
He then positions himself 12 inches in front of me square in the middle of my front bumper,despite there being a more than generous gap to my left. So when the lights changed I had to wait for him to wobble off while he asserted his absolute right to be on that part of the road.
Anyway,this has nothing to do with his right to be on the road or his right to use the cycle box or any of that other nonsense.
My question is about his level of commonsense, or lack of it. He is commuting through a busy inner city area, populated by some fairly aggressive drivers who are anything but pro cycling yet he clearly has few qualms about risking antagonising drivers(decent ones as it turns out this time) by making provocative gestures and placing himself physically in a position on the road where he is likely to come into conflict with them.
Perhaps he has led a charmed life. Perhaps next time he does this he will meet someone less tolerant of cyclists to whom violent road rage is seen as a mere peccadillo.Perhaps then he will learn that being a cyclist in itself does not bestow on him some degree of saintliness which renders him immune to physical harm.
I fear for his long-term future as an inner city cyclist if this is all it takes for him to unleash his indignation on motorists.

Got to say Sturmey, the only person in the wrong / wrong attitude here seems to be you

1. Paying so little attention to the road in front of you that you drive into ASL - what if there had been cyclist a;ready in here, you'd have hit him as you would not have seen him as you were not paying attention to the road ahead.

2. Cyclist stops in the ASL - which is funnily enough designed for cyclists to stop in. How dare he do such a thing eh?

3. Cyclist points out your illegal act. Should cyclists just ignore this and give over the ASL to motorists defeating the point of the same

4. Cyclist positions himself out of the gutter - again, how dare he position himself in a safe position. Far better the cyclist stays in the gutter on the left and gets cut up or hit by left turning motorists than ensure his safety.

5. So you were held up for a short time. Well, if you had stopped where you were supposed to, then the hold up would have been shorter as you would have started from further back. You are blaming the cyclist for your bad driving.

6. Why should he not express his disapproval of those who break the law? are motorists exempt from requirements to obey the law and have consideration for other road users. Its not appropriate to allow the bullying behaviour to go unchecked where appropriate. What you are advocating seems to be rewarding bad driving by allowing the bullying motorists to get away with their bullying. This will just encourage more bad driving

Sorry mate you drove badly and seem to show a very anti cyclist selfish attitude when behind the wheel.

sturmey

Have you finished your self-righteous rant which I have to say seems purely motivated by the shameful wickedness I have clearly demonstrated by daring to drive a car and find fault with another road user who happens to share the same mode ot transport as you? Good.

Well, I will repeat the essence of what I said as you clearly have a poor grasp of it.

1) I fully endorse the cyclist's RIGHT to be on the road and have his share of it.
Why wouldn't I as a cyclist myself? Perhaps you mistakenly think the same unpleasant transformation comes over me when I'm in a car as so clearly comes over you(and this guy) when your on a bike?

2) I merely questioned the wisdom of this cyclist being so confrontational about affirming those precious 'rights' of his to other road users, as he obviously has no concern for self-preservation.
Which sadly seems to be the case with you also.
Never mind...

spen666

sturmey wrote:

Have you finished your self-righteous rant which I have to say seems purely motivated by the shameful wickedness I have clearly demonstrated by daring to drive a car and find fault with another road user who happens to share the same mode ot transport as you? Good.

Well, I will repeat the essence of what I said as you clearly have a poor grasp of it.

1) I fully endorse the cyclist's RIGHT to be on the road and have his share of it.
Why wouldn't I as a cyclist myself? Perhaps you mistakenly think the same unpleasant transformation comes over me when I'm in a car as so clearly comes over you(and this guy) when your on a bike?

2) I merely questioned the wisdom of this cyclist being so confrontational about affirming those precious 'rights' of his to other road users, as he obviously has no concern for self-preservation.
Which sadly seems to be the case with you also.
Never mind...

Pot and kettle comne to mind


You started this with your rant trying to justify your bad driving, failing to observe the road, failing to stop etc
#
You then tryy to justify it by blaming the cyclist who does nothing wrong.

You then have the never to complain you were held up -yes you were, because you were in a position you were not allowed to be in.

Try looking at your own faults and stop blaming others for your bad driving and your aggressive impatience

El Gordo

I'm with Sturmey on this, sure he made a small mistake by driving into the ASL a bit but everyone makes mistakes (apart from Spen I believe) and this one is hardly a big deal.

The cyclist could have filtered up to the front and stopped in what remained of the ASL then rode off when the lights changed. The sanctamonious finger waggling was pointless antagonism which will at the very least reinforce the commonly held view that all cyclists are arrogant c##ks and at the worst will get him beaten up one day.

snailracer

Part of the reasoning behind the ASL is that cyclists wobble when they set off. So they might wobble right into Sturmey's car, even if the cyclist did start off from the gutter.

Much better to be in front in the first place, and move over later after the wobbling stops. Wobbling might not be a problem for most of the young-ish posters on this forum, but where I ride there are a lot of old gals wobbling precariously on their shopping-laden single speeds.

If more cyclists took up their rightful and safest place in the middle of the ASL or lane, motorists would get used to them being there and stop being annoyed due to their own ignorance.

toontra

sturmey, I'm afraid you are entirely in the wrong, both in your actions (which you've already admitted) but more importantly your assessment of the situation.

The green ASL area becomes more important the busier the road. You say this was a dual carriageway so I assume it carries heavy fast-moving traffic. Presumably there was some kind of junction at these lights, so lanes for straight on or turning. In that case it becomes an vital safety issue to be clearly visible to motorists before setting off, which is precisely the function of the green area.

By positioning himself directly in front of you (which is where he would have been anyway if you hadn't encroached into his area) meant that he could take priority position when traffic started moving and be less liable to be cut up by vehicles shifting lanes or turning left/right. He also made himself very visible. That is the precise function of these areas. Do you not understand that? If he had moved to the extreme left or sat between vehicles he would have put himself in danger. I would have done exactly the same as he did.

I also find your veiled threat of retaliation by less tolerant motorists frankly offensive. The situation you described was entirely of your own making, no-one else's. How about obeying the highway code yourself and leaving the anti-cycling rants to Jeremy Clarkson.

asquithea

As a driver and cyclist, I think that one of the people in this tale demonstrated that they don't know how to behave on the road -- and it sure as hell wasn't the driver.

All road users make minor mistakes, and sometimes break the law. I don't chase down every cyclist I see running a red light. I don't point out that a night cyclist seems to be missing his pedal reflectors. And I don't go gesturing at a driver who's missed the stop line by a foot.

Road rage is real. You can hoot and flash your lights at a hundred drivers, but the hundred and first might pull over and walk back to smash your windows. I had it happen to a colleague (who acted like an idiot every time someone cut him up), and I've had a driver get out to confront me (as a cyclist) at a junction, after I held him up.

Cyclists might be more vulnerable road users, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they all too often don't show an appropriate level of maturity. Stopping in front of sturmey's car might or might not have been the safe thing to do (probably not, by the sounds of it), but the finger wagging was unnecessary and stupid.

(Edit: And for the benefit of non-drivers on this forum, ASLs are usually set back from the lights, and not always easy to spot. It's an easy mistake to make.)

spen666

El Gordo wrote:

I'm with Sturmey on this, sure he made a small mistake by driving into the ASL a bit but everyone makes mistakes (apart from Spen I believe) and this one is hardly a big deal.

Where have I claimed not to make mistakes?

I was not one of the parties to this incident, so my actions are irrelevant in this incident

The cyclist could have filtered up to the front and stopped in what remained of the ASL then rode off when the lights changed. The sanctamonious finger waggling was pointless antagonism which will at the very least reinforce the commonly held view that all cyclists are arrogant c##ks and at the worst will get him beaten up one day.

Clearly, the safety of the cyclist is irrelevant in your assessment of the situation.

Why do you think the ASL covers the whole of the road, not just the gutter? Stopping in the gutter is unsafe.

choirboy

-Liam- wrote:

I've actually crossed paths on two separate occasions with a couple of cyclists recently that appear to be wearing big fat chips on their shoulders. Both were firmly planted roughly half way to two thirds of the way across the left hand lane, clearly making sure that no motorists can pass them unless they have a clear opportunity to pass whilst 100% in opposing lane. Now, being a cyclist myself, I always give other cyclists plenty of room but even I know that I don't need to be as far across as these chaps appeared to be demanding. Indeed, sometimes it is just not practical. The first chap turned off and I let it go. The second chap I did tag at a junction and wound my window down. I told him that a bus could pass down the gap he was leaving on the inside. He went on the attack straight away..."I've a right to ride safely on the road blah blah blah" I lost my cool a bit and told him he had a "f***ing duty to pay consideration to other road users" and if he carries on, he'll end up being hit by something that doesnt think he deserves the respect that I initially would have given him.

The more this happens, the more cyclists will lose. Apply a little common sense and be safe.

[irony]So this guy had the affront to ride in primary, making himself clearly visible to traffic and asserting his right to be on the road and part of the traffic, and following the advice of Cyclecraft and all others who have an opinion on how best to keep cyclists safe and seen.. Well clearly he was a complete twunt then! Far better for him to follow Liam's advice or even better to ride up the inside of a left-turning HGV and then he might get himself squashed and cease to be an inconvenience to those 4-wheeled denizens of the road who have a far greater right to be there. Thank heavens for drivers with the common sense and decency such as Liam who help to save the rest of us from such ignorant behaviour which threatens the very basis of our society![/irony]

If the bloke in question was on a red, white and black Focus it might have been me and, guess what, I will continue to ride in exactly that fashion!

Anonymous

but the finger wagging was unnecessary and stupid

Exactly. This seems to be the most relevent part of the situation. If the cyclist hadn't acted all sanctimonious I bet the OP wouldn't feel so anoyed.

toontra

RichardSwt wrote:

but the finger wagging was unnecessary and stupid

Exactly this seems to be the most relevant part of the situation. If the cyclist hadn't acted all sanctimonious I bet the OP wouldn't feel so anoyed.

It's not exactly road rage, is it, having a finger wagged at you. If you get annoyed by that then you won't last long on British roads. I think the real issue here is that the OP had his driving criticised and he didn't like it. If I thought that someone was putting me in danger by breaking the highway code then I think it's entirely appropriate to point out their mistake in as polite a way as I think would get their attention.

Oh, and if you don't notice things like huge green boxes in the middle of the road maybe you should consider re-sitting your driving test.

CJ Bill

Whereabouts in Chorlton?

spen666

RichardSwt wrote:

but the finger wagging was unnecessary and stupid

Exactly. This seems to be the most relevent part of the situation. If the cyclist hadn't acted all sanctimonious I bet the OP wouldn't feel so anoyed.

so the failing to even notice there was an ASL ahead. Failing to stop, impatience etc of the motorist, all actions which may lead to the death / serious injury of other road users is less relevant than wagging a finger.

The motorist here needs to look at his actions and attitudes. Wagging a finger is hardly going to cause injury

cee

crikey....

split decision so far....but who will come up with secret option number 3!

spen666

sturmey wrote:

Commuted to work today by bicycle as usual. however this has nothing to do with my own cycling experience.My job requires me to drive while at work.
So am out in the car about 4.45pm in the Chorlton area. Approach traffic lights on wide dual carriageway signalling red. Stop car, not really noticing the green cycle box in front of the stop line .....

Should have gone to

spen666

sturmey wrote:

Commuted to work today by bicycle as usual. however this has nothing to do with my own cycling experience.My job requires me to drive while at work.
So am out in the car about 4.45pm in the Chorlton area. Approach traffic lights on wide dual carriageway signalling red. Stop car, not really noticing the green cycle box in front of the stop line .....

Should have gone to

Anonymous

spen666 wrote:

RichardSwt wrote:

but the finger wagging was unnecessary and stupid

Exactly. This seems to be the most relevent part of the situation. If the cyclist hadn't acted all sanctimonious I bet the OP wouldn't feel so anoyed.

so the failing to even notice there was an ASL ahead. Failing to stop, impatience etc of the motorist, all actions which may lead to the death / serious injury of other road users is less relevant than wagging a finger.

The motorist here needs to look at his actions and attitudes. Wagging a finger is hardly going to cause injury

I think a bit of perspective is needed here. The OP has already admitted he was in the wrong, but a minor offence.

At no stage did he ACTUALY endanger the cyclist.

The cyclist did a pretty good job of this himself though by taking action which he must have know would annoy the people he wagged his finger at.

As the OP is a cyclist himself I'm sure there was no way he would retaliate. What if he had done the same to an angry taxi driver?

I would argue that actions such as finger waving, condescending head shaking ect, that only are going to serve to annoy road users and reinforce negative stereotypes towards cyclist will in the long run do more harm than a slight over sight of running in to ASL. Yes the OP was in the wrong, he admits that but there was no need for the cyclist to inflame the situation was there?

Clever Pun

El Gordo wrote:

I'm with Sturmey on this, sure he made a small mistake by driving into the ASL a bit but everyone makes mistakes (apart from Spen I believe) and this one is hardly a big deal.

The cyclist could have filtered up to the front and stopped in what remained of the ASL then rode off when the lights changed. The sanctamonious finger waggling was pointless antagonism which will at the very least reinforce the commonly held view that all cyclists are arrogant c##ks and at the worst will get him beaten up one day.

the sitting in the middle of the lane is an attempt to teach the asl drifters a lesson, I've done the same myself.. finger wagging meh hardly a problem you messed and you get a finger wagging big deal.

I really don't see the point in this thread

always_tyred

spen666 wrote:

RichardSwt wrote:

but the finger wagging was unnecessary and stupid

Exactly. This seems to be the most relevent part of the situation. If the cyclist hadn't acted all sanctimonious I bet the OP wouldn't feel so anoyed.

so the failing to even notice there was an ASL ahead. Failing to stop, impatience etc of the motorist, all actions which may lead to the death / serious injury of other road users is less relevant than wagging a finger.

The motorist here needs to look at his actions and attitudes. Wagging a finger is hardly going to cause injury

I skim read the OP. The thing that jumped out at me was "there was space next to my car so what was the problem" (or words to that effect).

Without knowning the junction, its hard to know how to interpret this, but ASL's are present to allow cyclists to get ACROSS the juntion first. So how much space was there next to the car on the OTHER side of the junction?

Basically, I'm with Spen on this one, the original post totally misses the point. It is a failure of observation AND comprehension in my view.

DonDaddyD

The cyclist did nothing wrong.

What is more worrying is that people think the cyclist did something wrong.

As a motorist, when stopped at lights I prefer cyclists to position themselves in front of my car and not either side of it.

As a cyclist, when stopped at lights I position my bike in the primary position (center of the lane) as to be seen. I prefer not to be beside two vehicles or a vehicle and the curb.

The OP complains about having to wait for the cyclist to 'wobble off'. Would this waiting been any different had the ASL been full of cyclist and the OP having to stop before and not inside the ASL?

Yes the cyclist complained about a car being in the ASL. The car shouldn't have been there. Is it wrong to point out a mistake?

It is annoying and frustrating when vehicles stop in the ASL.

The OP should have noticed the big green box at the lights. Mistakes happen, it doesn't always make the mistake excusable.

cyclowen

I would take the side of the cyclist if he hadn't shaken his finger - a little childish methinks. However I think the cyclist does have a point, just because there isn't a cyclist in the ASL shouldn't mean it is used by drivers instead (I see this all the time in Cardiff). Admittedly you may not have seen it but what does that say about your apparent excellent driving??

greg66_tri_v2.0

sturmey wrote:

in the Chorlton area.
...
Male commuter on blue (Isaac?) road bike

Was he doing a wheelie?

I'll get me coat...

SamWise1972

Had the cyclist not wagged his finger, there would have been no "side" to take. The driver would have driven into an ASL, forced the cyclist into the gutter, and driven off, safe in the knowledge that he can do whatever he liked. It seems like the finger wagging was the only thing that brought it home that he shouldn't be there. I think all this upset and posturing about people getting beaten up are just defensiveness by someone who knows they drove badly and got called on it. Man up, I say.

iPete

SamWise1972 wrote:

Had the cyclist not wagged his finger, there would have been no "side" to take. The driver would have driven into an ASL, forced the cyclist into the gutter, and driven off, safe in the knowledge that he can do whatever he liked. It seems like the finger wagging was the only thing that brought it home that he shouldn't be there. I think all this upset and posturing about people getting beaten up are just defensiveness by someone who knows they drove badly and got called on it. Man up, I say.

No, I don't even own a car and I cringe at some of the altercations that some cyclists start.

See post below, can't top that for a perfect response. :!: