A True Champion

paulcuthbert

stagehopper wrote:

Frowson wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

Didn't see Schleck waiting for Contador on the cobbled stage when his brother Frank's crash held up almost all the other favourites. Instead he sat in the wheekl of Cancellara and they attacked to take as much time as possible.

But Contador didn't have the yellow jersey at this point. Isn't it the jersey that's owed the tradition of waiting rather than the rider? If this is the case then Schleck did nothing wrong by not waiting over the cobbles.

When there's only two people in with a realistic chance of winning the Tour the yellow jersey is meaningless in this ethics debate.

While that's true, I think two things are different there.

Stage 3 is so early in the race - too early to be won by anyone, so I don't think it was a problem there. Secondly, Chavanel wasn't ever likely to be an overall contender - and he'd probably be the first person to tell you that!

I think the convention (and it is just that, so we won't ever have a clear judgement on it) is more to wait for a 'serious contender' for the overall - not just the current holder of the jersey - which is why Week 1 is different from Week 3. I doubt anyone would have waited for Kirsipuu in the 90s when he was in yellow if a similar thing would have happened, cos he wasn't ever likely to affect the overall.

Back to today - I've watched replays and I think Contador should have waited. It was unsportsman-like to continue when Schleck obviously had a problem.

It's obvious why he didn't wait though. Schleck has been a real threat throughout the Tour - from riding surprisingly well on the cobbles, to matching every acceleration of Contador in the Alps and Pyrenees - and Contador was struggling to catch Schleck's attack when he had the problem. He didn't appear to be gaining on him at any rate before it happened. Then you can see Contador looking back, but it's not to wait - it's to see how much distance he is going to be ahead.

Can someone translate this please?

Garry H

Wonder what AS said to AC during the ceremony. Answers on a postcard...

Garry H

The translation's on the footage.

I don't think AC could really have afforded to wait whilst he was responding to Shleck's attack, not knowing what Menchov and Sanchez were going to do. Perhaps they should've sat up on the descent, who knows. AC seems pretty sheepish in that footage though, shame because in the end, I don't think it will make a difference to the final standings.

Tom Butcher

Homer J wrote:

i wonder what the rest of the peloton think? I know that the phil and paul had different opinions.

Phil seemed to think Contador had just reacted to Sanchez and Menchov though - and then just followed them - from where I was sat in front a 40 inch high definition TV with slow motion replay it didn't look much like that to me

Steve2020

He's certainly no John Landy:

"In Australia, Landy is perhaps most famously remembered for his performance in the 1500 metres final at the 1956 Australian National Championships prior to the Melbourne 1956 Olympic Games. In the race, Landy stopped and doubled backed to check on fellow runner Ron Clarke after another runner clipped Clarke's heel, causing him to fall early in the third lap of the race. Clarke, the then-junior 1500 metre world champion, who had been leading the race, got back to his feet and started running again; Landy followed. Incredibly, in the final two laps Landy made up a large deficit to win the race, something considered one of the greatest moments in Australian sporting history. Said the National Centre for History and Education in Australia, "It was a spontaneous gesture of sportsmanship and it has never been forgotten." [1] A bronze sculpture of the moment when Landy helps Clarke to his feet is situated on the lawns adjacent to Olympic Park on Olympic Boulevard, Melbourne."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Landy

Will L

Whatever the rights and wrongs of what AC did on the road, the bit I found hard to stomach were the bare faced lies told in the interview afterwards. Didn't look back? Unaware of what had happened? Come off it!

To that point, I had a fair bit of respect for Contador, but it all started to evaporate. There is a big difference between a winner and a champion, and Contador doesn't look as if he is making the grade.

dreamlx10

Ullrich waited for Armstrong and look what happened. Armstrong got his breath back and attacked him, gaining forty seconds on the stage ! So much for fair play, Ullrich tried it and was shafted.

dougzz

This is what happens with unwritten rules. If you really want a race you don't neutralise stages because someone crashed, you don't wait for people who's bikes break, surely part of a 3 week tour is attrition. What if Voeckler had been 30 seconds ahead, not minutes, unless he is told and forced to wait others in that chasing group can no longer realistically catch him, how is that fair? Unwritten rules can only ever lead to endless views on how any particular incident should be handled.

Just reading this thread there are plenty of contradicting examples from the past. Ditch all unwritten rules and stick to the written ones.

Also, whilst I don't want to turn this into another doping thread, I can't let it pass that someone mentions the Ullrich Armstrong occasion. Both of those gentleman have/had a funny lopsided approach to doing the right thing :roll:

dougzz

dreamlx10 wrote:

Ullrich waited for Armstrong and look what happened. Armstrong got his breath back and attacked him, gaining forty seconds on the stage ! So much for fair play, Ullrich tried it and was shafted.

Exactly why the unwritten rule thing is crap. Should Armstrong have ridden the rest of the stage at Ullrich's pace as a thank you? Is there an unwritten rule for that too?

afx237vi

Steve2020 wrote:

He's certainly no John Landy:

"In Australia, Landy is perhaps most famously remembered for his performance in the 1500 metres final at the 1956 Australian National Championships prior to the Melbourne 1956 Olympic Games. In the race, Landy stopped and doubled backed to check on fellow runner Ron Clarke after another runner clipped Clarke's heel, causing him to fall early in the third lap of the race. Clarke, the then-junior 1500 metre world champion, who had been leading the race, got back to his feet and started running again; Landy followed. Incredibly, in the final two laps Landy made up a large deficit to win the race, something considered one of the greatest moments in Australian sporting history. Said the National Centre for History and Education in Australia, "It was a spontaneous gesture of sportsmanship and it has never been forgotten." [1] A bronze sculpture of the moment when Landy helps Clarke to his feet is situated on the lawns adjacent to Olympic Park on Olympic Boulevard, Melbourne."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Landy

OTOH, he's certainly no Trevor Chappell either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K65_spUU05s

(Y'know, while we were on the topic of Australian sportsmen and sportsmanship...)

rokkala

From watching Berties bedtime video you get the impression he had felt rather hard done by after waiting for Schleck on Stage 2 and then getting time put into him on Stage 3.

Rather blatant today he knew what had happened, just probably didn't want to get chastised again for giving AS an easy time when he could get screwed at some point further down the line himself.

jerry3571

The whole point of the Race is to find the strongest rider not the biggest cheating B@st'd.
AC had quite a few seconds to see Schleck had sat up after a problem; bloody obvious to see.
I did feel sorry for Cadel when he got a puncture but the other riders rode at tempo after his misfortune; today AC attacked as soon as he sussed out there was an advantage to be made out of this. This is now not a victory of the strongest rider; the result of 3 weeks racing now hinges on a dropped chain. This is now a joke. Can I have my money back please as this race is now broke?

This is a very similar situation to the Armstrong falling off debacle and so what if Armstrong attacked after; the strongest rider won, unlike today.

I am fuming!!

-Jerry

PS- See below to how to cheat your way to a Tour Victory-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcN2HrkrnF4

jrduquemin

Garry H wrote:

Wonder what AS said to AC during the ceremony. Answers on a postcard...

I'm gonna git you, sucka!!! :-D

off the back

Fair play yes! Stop for slipped chain no!!
Some of this fair play stuff is gone too far. We will have race played out with power meters in the lab. Also the classic riders tend not to use this at all but tour riders put more stock in it! imagine Paris Roubaix and lads waiting up after each cobble section - it would be a none event.

It was a slipped chain - no more. So sorry if you can't get back then good luck. What should happen if yellow jersey slips a chain in a TT? Should all the other lads get radioed to slow down. Riis even refused to condem AC.

If anything the fans at finish displayed least amount of fair play booing - who made them judge n jury!! AC didn't deserve that a very grey area.

snaffledog

wonder who will get best nights sleep ... AC or AS ?

AC .. riddled with guilt? he past AS on the right ,the side of his drivechain .. no question .. he clocked AS had mech. what else did he think was happening to AS , some unbelievable spectacular crack after bolting away ? come on ... but AC said he didnt know what was happening ... b*llox.

he may have the excuse of covering the move from the rest in the GC podium chase, but they all had radio info, so they all knew what was happening.

From various threads, nobody can identify a previous unfair AS action against AC that could have been a pay-back voucher today?


AS .. fuming with anger .. or embrassed about shipping chain .. embrassed about he amount of time it took him to get chain back on, easier said then done when you're off the bike with heart rate over 180bpm .. the tour is supposed to be about the strongest man prevailing , a mechanical is not about the man?

Maybe the emotions of todays stage will play out over the next 2 days...

AS seems like a calm chap, but is running out of stages to win ...

stagehopper

jerry3571 wrote:

The whole point of the Race is to find the strongest rider not the biggest cheating B@st'd. AC had quite a few seconds to see Schleck had sat up after a problem; bloody obvious to see.

I did feel sorry for Cadel when he got a puncture but the other riders rode at tempo after his misfortune; today AC attacked as soon as he sussed out there was an advantage to be made out of this. This is now not a victory of the strongest rider; the result of 3 weeks racing now hinges on a dropped chain. This is now a joke. Can I have my money back please as this race is now broke?

I am fuming!!

Were you fuming on Stage 3 when Andy took advantage of his own brother's crash, which delayed almost every GC rider including Contador, to forge a large early advantage with the help of Fabian Cancellara?

I didn't see ANY waiting on that day. And it was equally "bloody obvious to see" why Contador was delayed.

Contador lost 1:13 that day. Schleck lost 0:39 today. Schleck's still 34 seconds to the good on the Screw-A-GC-Rival-Over table.

nferrar

dreamlx10 wrote:

Ullrich waited for Armstrong and look what happened. Armstrong got his breath back and attacked him, gaining forty seconds on the stage ! So much for fair play, Ullrich tried it and was shafted.

Err wtf? It's about not using a crash or mechanical issue to your advantage, it was LA that crashed - as soon as he was back in the group then it's back to normal racing etiquette, how was Ullrich shafted by the fact he didn't have the form to stay with him?

natrix

Part of the honour wearing the yellow jersey is gaining the respect of the fans and the other cyclists. AC could have had this if he'd beaten Schleck in the TT, but now he's lost it, as the boos from the crowd showed. He might have the yellow jersey on his back, but to the fans he is not worthy of wearing the yellow jersey.

Whether that's acceptable or not, he got booed and knowing the French, I expect they'll boo him again.

camerone

dougzz wrote:

This is what happens with unwritten rules. If you really want a race you don't neutralise stages because someone crashed, you don't wait for people who's bikes break, surely part of a 3 week tour is attrition. What if Voeckler had been 30 seconds ahead, not minutes, unless he is told and forced to wait others in that chasing group can no longer realistically catch him, how is that fair? Unwritten rules can only ever lead to endless views on how any particular incident should be handled.

Just reading this thread there are plenty of contradicting examples from the past. Ditch all unwritten rules and stick to the written ones.

Also, whilst I don't want to turn this into another doping thread, I can't let it pass that someone mentions the Ullrich Armstrong occasion. Both of those gentleman have/had a funny lopsided approach to doing the right thing :roll:

i'm sorry, but genuinely you think AC is any different. Head. Sand. Remove. Basso must be sat wondering how on earth he was banned when others ride free.

Steve2020

off the back wrote:

Riis even refused to condem AC.

Not normally someone I would look for moral direction from.

mrdoofer

Bad day for Contador. If he wins now it will forever be questioned. Good day for Schleck, courageous riding to reduce the deficit, when he wins the tour it will taste much sweeter.
If Contador had waited and then went on to win the race in the TT the press would have loved it, he missed an opportunity here to become a tour legend, unfoutunately he's done a bit of a Maradonna.

verylonglegs

Rokkala wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

I would have done exactly the same as AC did.

Nice guys don't win anything.

Jenson Button

Steve Redgrave? Gebrselassie has often been said to be a decent bloke too and there are many more examples if I could be arsed to spend a day off listing them. The whole nice guys don't win is a nonsense cliche too often used to try and justify poor behaviour.

greasedscotsman

stagehopper wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

The whole point of the Race is to find the strongest rider not the biggest cheating B@st'd. AC had quite a few seconds to see Schleck had sat up after a problem; bloody obvious to see.

I did feel sorry for Cadel when he got a puncture but the other riders rode at tempo after his misfortune; today AC attacked as soon as he sussed out there was an advantage to be made out of this. This is now not a victory of the strongest rider; the result of 3 weeks racing now hinges on a dropped chain. This is now a joke. Can I have my money back please as this race is now broke?

I am fuming!!

Were you fuming on Stage 3 when Andy took advantage of his own brother's crash, which delayed almost every GC rider including Contador, to forge a large early advantage with the help of Fabian Cancellara?

I didn't see ANY waiting on that day. And it was equally "bloody obvious to see" why Contador was delayed.

Contador lost 1:13 that day. Schleck lost 0:39 today. Schleck's still 34 seconds to the good on the Screw-A-GC-Rival-Over table.

And didn't Contador have some sort of problem with his wheel on that stage? He got tailed off the group he was with and lost a few seconds.

Pross

I'm surprised to see so many people defending AC on this issue. You can't compare it with Stage 3 as Chavanel was already behind Cancellara when he punctured, had Contador already left Schleck behind then fair enough. Also, people are now splitting mechanicals into different types and having to get off and put a chain back on is not a genuine mechanical. Maybe a slow puncture shouldn't count either as you could change it before it becomes critical or if you crash on your own it shouldn't count as it's all your own fault. As for Bertie claiming he didn't realise and that he had all ready attacked when Schleck had his problem, what a complete and utter load of b***ocks, he was right on his wheel at the time and even if he somehow managed not to see the wheel jam and jump as the chain stuck he would have heard it. Fact is Bertie is only in yellow because of Schleck's misfortune. OK, you can say it's a race so why should they stop and this is a point I agree with to an extent but when it's the two leaders alongside each other at the time you have to have some sort of etiquette, sport goes downhill rapidly once etiquette goes out the window and unsporting behaviour becomes the norm (such as in cricket where no-one walks these days). I'm no Schleck fan but I hope he channels this and gives Bertie a pasting on the final day in the Pyrenees if only to open the race back up.

Incidently, how has FF managed to sort out this conundrum? Obviously any rider not on "the list" would have been roundly condemned for dishonouring this great sport etc. but AC being a true champion can do no wrong so I assume there's a justification?

*Note - I appreciate the irony of going on about unsporting behaviour in a sport synonymous with drug cheats.

moray_gub

greasedscotsman wrote:

stagehopper wrote:

jerry3571 wrote:

The whole point of the Race is to find the strongest rider not the biggest cheating B@st'd. AC had quite a few seconds to see Schleck had sat up after a problem; bloody obvious to see.

I did feel sorry for Cadel when he got a puncture but the other riders rode at tempo after his misfortune; today AC attacked as soon as he sussed out there was an advantage to be made out of this. This is now not a victory of the strongest rider; the result of 3 weeks racing now hinges on a dropped chain. This is now a joke. Can I have my money back please as this race is now broke?

I am fuming!!

Were you fuming on Stage 3 when Andy took advantage of his own brother's crash, which delayed almost every GC rider including Contador, to forge a large early advantage with the help of Fabian Cancellara?

I didn't see ANY waiting on that day. And it was equally "bloody obvious to see" why Contador was delayed.

Contador lost 1:13 that day. Schleck lost 0:39 today. Schleck's still 34 seconds to the good on the Screw-A-GC-Rival-Over table.

And didn't Contador have some sort of problem with his wheel on that stage? He got tailed off the group he was with and lost a few seconds.

That was a smokescreen he just didnt have it in the legs, he is asking us to believe he had that wheel problem for 30kms...........another lie.

cajun_cyclist

afx237vi wrote:

Steve2020 wrote:

He's certainly no John Landy:

"In Australia, Landy is perhaps most famously remembered for his performance in the 1500 metres final at the 1956 Australian National Championships prior to the Melbourne 1956 Olympic Games. In the race, Landy stopped and doubled backed to check on fellow runner Ron Clarke after another runner clipped Clarke's heel, causing him to fall early in the third lap of the race. Clarke, the then-junior 1500 metre world champion, who had been leading the race, got back to his feet and started running again; Landy followed. Incredibly, in the final two laps Landy made up a large deficit to win the race, something considered one of the greatest moments in Australian sporting history. Said the National Centre for History and Education in Australia, "It was a spontaneous gesture of sportsmanship and it has never been forgotten." [1] A bronze sculpture of the moment when Landy helps Clarke to his feet is situated on the lawns adjacent to Olympic Park on Olympic Boulevard, Melbourne."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Landy

OTOH, he's certainly no Trevor Chappell either:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K65_spUU05s

(Y'know, while we were on the topic of Australian sportsmen and sportsmanship...)

As long as we are on this topic, there is a famous example involving... da da da, googling a few words from the cobwebs of my mind, the ultimate show of SPORTSMANSHIP, or at least one that is trodded out when talking of such is...

In the two-man Bobsled event Tony Nash of Great Britain, after his first run, recorded the fastest time. A bolt attaching the runners to the shell had sheared. Eugenio Monti, who was about to steer the Italian number one sled down the track said, "Get an Englishman and a Spanner to the finish and they can have my bolt." True to his word and ignoring inquiries from mystified Italian journalists, the bolt was ferried back up to the start and quickly attached to the British Bob. In the end Tony Nash and Robin Dixon of Great Britain took home the Gold and Eugenio Monti took home the Bronze and the "Pierre de Coubertin" award for fair play.

http://www.insightoftheday.com/quotetext.asp?msgid=445

More of the story at the website but the above paragraph is the nuts and bolts of it, probably under the word "sportsmanship" in the encyclopedia but of course, I am sure there are many many stories out there just as there are many stories out there of men who have come back from serious illnesses and injuries to be in sport and endeavour. The above is a rather famous incident, I'm sure some here know of it.

greasedscotsman

Pross wrote:

I'm surprised to see so many people defending AC on this issue. You can't compare it with Stage 3 as Chavanel was already behind Cancellara when he punctured, had Contador already left Schleck behind then fair enough. Also, people are now splitting mechanicals into different types and having to get off and put a chain back on is not a genuine mechanical. Maybe a slow puncture shouldn't count either as you could change it before it becomes critical or if you crash on your own it shouldn't count as it's all your own fault. As for Bertie claiming he didn't realise and that he had all ready attacked when Schleck had his problem, what a complete and utter load of b***ocks, he was right on his wheel at the time and even if he somehow managed not to see the wheel jam and jump as the chain stuck he would have heard it. Fact is Bertie is only in yellow because of Schleck's misfortune. OK, you can say it's a race so why should they stop and this is a point I agree with to an extent but when it's the two leaders alongside each other at the time you have to have some sort of etiquette, sport goes downhill rapidly once etiquette goes out the window and unsporting behaviour becomes the norm (such as in cricket where no-one walks these days). I'm no Schleck fan but I hope he channels this and gives Bertie a pasting on the final day in the Pyrenees if only to open the race back up.

Incidently, how has FF managed to sort out this conundrum? Obviously any rider not on "the list" would have been roundly condemned for dishonouring this great sport etc. but AC being a true champion can do no wrong so I assume there's a justification?

*Note - I appreciate the irony of going on about unsporting behaviour in a sport synonymous with drug cheats.

Wasn't Chavanel held up in the same crash that took out Frank Schleck? Think he had to change his bike.

And what about if someone crashes into you? Is that different from if you crash by yourself? I think the whole thing is just far too open to opinion. People on here can't seem to agree what's acceptable or not, so what chance do riders have in the middle of a race where they don't have the same information that we do.

Although I do take people's point about Contador's "story" after the stage. Think I'd like him more if he just said Schleck's chain was his problem, that's racing.

But I do agree with you, I'd like to see Schleck go on a monster attack to open the race up again.

Pross

And what about if someone crashes into you? Is that different from if you crash by yourself? I think the whole thing is just far too open to opinion. People on here can't seem to agree what's acceptable or not, so what chance do riders have in the middle of a race where they don't have the same information that we do.

The point I was making was that a crash is a crash but the way people are now tweaking what is or isn't a mechanical maybe they will start saying you should wait if a crash isn't your fault but not if it is.

To be honest I can't remember how Chavanel went out of the lead group originally just that he was already out when he had his punctures but thinking back you may be right. I said at that time though that Canc was wrong to drive it on having neutralised the previous stage to protect his team mates so perhaps there's an element of karma for Saxo. I'd have thought that this was a very cut and dried situation, all the favourites were together, they weren't going to win the stage and if they had all waited none of them would have gained over the others.

andyrac

I can see both arguments, however, AC's bare faced lies at the end annoyed me. Didn't see him? Why did he keep looking over his shoulder after attacking...???

cajun_cyclist

Maybe Contador will get additional treatment by the crowd in France, in fact, I'm sure of it.

Kind of like the Uruguay Suarez save to stop the goal from happening... which I have little trouble with and Suarez of course, booed, that was unfair to the Uruguayan team, oh well, another sport.

Ethics in sport, interesting.