"I'm f*ked mate"

oscarbudgie

Just shows what you can achieve when you spend 2 months of every year on the p!ss

eh

I still think the problem is that overall the Sky team simply isn't that good, for Grand Tour racing. They seem over reliant on just a few riders to carry the rest of the team.

mroli

I think it is interesting to look at the top 10 from last year:

Schleck and Contador - same performance
Armstrong - way below level.
Wiggins - down
Schleck F - out.
Kloden - down
Nibali - not riding (but if you take Basso as a straight swap - about same)
Van De Velde - out
Le Mevel - way down
Kreuziger about the same

In context of last year's race then, his performance doesn't stink the joint out, but it is still pretty disappointing for him and Sky.

Pross

Autobahn wrote:

I keep thinking about the the size of the financial package he is meant to be on. £2 mill, over 2 years?
Thats a lot for someone who could finish outside the top 15.
I really wanted him to do well, however I dont thinks its form, he's just not good enough to get a podium place.
Cant knock him for taking the money, you have to ask who bull****ed the Murdocks to get all that money out of them?

I suspect Sky were as aware of the likelihood of him doing well in this Tour as anyone. If the £2 million is the true figure (I suspect not, or possibly it would be with bonuses based on performance) then they have got their money's worth out of the publicity surrounding Wiggins including, ironically, all those who have spent time criticising his move. Sponsors put money into cycling for publicity not results, results are just another way of getting publicity.

Having said that, his riding has been disappointing but then the other riders who did the Giro aren't much better. Two very tough GTs and, hopefully, riding clean is a 'big ask'. With hindsight Lovkvist should have been given protected status as he appears to be in better form (1 place behind Wiggins despite working hard for him for the first few mountain stages).

I've said it before but I think they need to throw Kennaugh in at the deep end next season, he looks like Sky's best hope for a British Tour winner in the next 5 years.

iainf72

Pross wrote:

I suspect Sky were as aware of the likelihood of him doing well in this Tour as anyone. If the £2 million is the true figure (I suspect not, or possibly it would be with bonuses based on performance) then they have got their money's worth out of the publicity surrounding Wiggins including, ironically, all those who have spent time criticising his move. Sponsors put money into cycling for publicity not results, results are just another way of getting publicity.

Ahh, but they want to engage the general public. The general public don't give a monkeys about his move and all the noise around it. They wil only sit up and take notice when he does well in the Tour.

I think Sky have missed a trick though. They're a big media company - Why not use your TV channels to try and engage people with the team and sport in general? Sure, they don't have rights to races but they could do a documentry series a-la the Cervelo things but get it out on one of their channels. But instead we get this "all for the Tour" lark.

mididoctors

mulling this over............

ahhh his morale has gone... he isn't the rider of last year the prologue set the tone... downhill from there

I think his fluke comment is a bit negative no tour is ever easy... I can understand it thou must feel as though its all a bit of a let down...

not sold on Tommy L either as a GC guy...

sky as a new team have done ok I suppose... but the hype they set themselves to live up to was pretty ambitious... I suppose if they did pull off a podium finish we would all be sold on this sky PR thing more...

I think the hard man racing schedule with Garmin is more of what you need..look at Ryder..

becoming a bit of a Garmin fan on the quite.. and look at how disastrous their tour has gone..

pedro118118

Pross wrote:

Autobahn wrote:

I keep thinking about the the size of the financial package he is meant to be on. £2 mill, over 2 years?
Thats a lot for someone who could finish outside the top 15.
I really wanted him to do well, however I dont thinks its form, he's just not good enough to get a podium place.
Cant knock him for taking the money, you have to ask who bull****ed the Murdocks to get all that money out of them?

I suspect Sky were as aware of the likelihood of him doing well in this Tour as anyone. If the £2 million is the true figure (I suspect not, or possibly it would be with bonuses based on performance) then they have got their money's worth out of the publicity surrounding Wiggins including, ironically, all those who have spent time criticising his move. Sponsors put money into cycling for publicity not results, results are just another way of getting publicity.

Having said that, his riding has been disappointing but then the other riders who did the Giro aren't much better. Two very tough GTs and, hopefully, riding clean is a 'big ask'. With hindsight Lovkvist should have been given protected status as he appears to be in better form (1 place behind Wiggins despite working hard for him for the first few mountain stages).

I've said it before but I think they need to throw Kennaugh in at the deep end next season, he looks like Sky's best hope for a British Tour winner in the next 5 years.

Not sure I agree with that - what they want is positive publicity - just ask Saunier Duval, LPR Brakes and Phonak! In this context, positive publicity comes from good performances. Of course, good performances means different things for different teams/riders.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

But instead we get this "all for the Tour" lark.

at the high end of the bizzzzzness world selling it to the powers that be means the tour...

your right thou

cougie

I wouldn't say last year was a fluke - but many riders have found it hard to achieve their placings of past tours.
I can't think of anyone who sky could have bought to get the publicity they have and who would do much better. British guy gets a lot of publicity - foreign guy less so. There's only really contador and I don't know about his 'figures'.
They knew it wouldn't be easy - and its showing it. If they get cav onboard next year though...

Pross

I agree with Mididoctors that maybe they need to go for a tougher schedule next season and probably not put their main GC man in the Giro. As a squad they look for more suited for Classics in any case. Flecha, EBH, Thomas, Stannard all look capable of winning a spring classic, perhaps even Wiggins if he aims in that direction. Their squad isn't built for GT riding at present and the team they have at the Tour even less so. That's the thing that has disappointed me most from them, they have a lot of potential stage winners but waited until Stage 13 before getting in any meaningful breaks. I'd like to see Wiggins have a crack tomorrow but doubt he will as I suspect he is waiting to try for a stage win in the TT (possibly Lovkvist to have a go instead then?).

mididoctors

Pross wrote:

I agree with Mididoctors that maybe they need to go for a tougher schedule next season and probably not put their main GC man in the Giro. As a squad they look for more suited for Classics in any case. Flecha, EBH, Thomas, Stannard all look capable of winning a spring classic, perhaps even Wiggins if he aims in that direction. Their squad isn't built for GT riding at present and the team they have at the Tour even less so. That's the thing that has disappointed me most from them, they have a lot of potential stage winners but waited until Stage 13 before getting in any meaningful breaks. I'd like to see Wiggins have a crack tomorrow but doubt he will as I suspect he is waiting to try for a stage win in the TT (possibly Lovkvist to have a go instead then?).

if your trying to hold position on GC everyday at pace the chances Brad and Tommy have something in the tank to go for a ride is slim... mentally apart from anything else

pedro118118

Last year was perfect for Brad - for a host of reasons, which have been discussed at length.

This year has been a rude awakening in terms of the parcours and the pressure.
Of course, there's scope for him to come back and perform well if the course suits his abilities more - ie fewer mountains, more TT kms.

What I would like to see is more focus on other events he could actually win - such as Criterium International, Paris Nice, Dauphine, Tirreno.............hell perhaps even the Vuelta?!

lloyd_bower

Considering Garmin supposedly got £1m for him, you'd expect he would have cost Sky double that this year. Money badly spent, Garmin certainly got the better of the deal as most said at the time.

There was no way Wiggins was going to match last year's effort with less TTs , no TTT and more mtns. He struggled in the giro, I don't buy the taking it easy nonsense, he was way down. He's had only 1 decent Grand Tour, and he's been a bad buy for Sky.

I can't see him winning a GT, maybe challenging again if the mix is v. generous to him. There's no way he would have won say last year's Vuelta (I know he wasn't there) or this year's Giro if he'd have given it 100%.

With his main event being discarded from the Olympics you can't blame him trying to pursue the Tour this year on the back of a hefty contract. Problem is it's difficult to see him winning one of the classis's either.

pedro118118

I actually heard Wiggo the other day citing 'going too deep' at the Giro as a potential explanation for his lack of form.

Now I'm prepared to cut the guy some slack, but he was utterly anonymous in the mountains at the Giro and only went even close to full gas in the Prologue (which lasted all of 15 mins?!), the Strade Bianci stage and the mega-break in the rain. All of which he rode within a group (ableit in terrible conditions).

He then compared his effort levels to those of Cadel Evans, which is way off the mark.

Surely it's fairly simple - the route this year is just too selective.

RichN95.

pedro118118 wrote:

I actually heard Wiggo the other day citing 'going too deep' at the Giro as a potential explanation for his lack of form.

Now I'm prepared to cut the guy some slack, but he was utterly anonymous in the mountains at the Giro and only went even close to full gas in the Prologue (which lasted all of 15 mins?!), the Strade Bianci stage and the mega-break in the rain. All of which he rode within a group (ableit in terrible conditions).

He then compared his effort levels to those of Cadel Evans, which is way off the mark.

Surely it's fairly simple - the route this year is just too selective.

He still had to get round the Giro course though. Have a look at the list of Giro finishers (139 of the them) and see how many have ridden to their level at the Tour (I make it two - Vino and Kiryienka)

simon_e

pedro118118 wrote:

Last year was perfect for Brad - for a host of reasons, which have been discussed at length.

Agreed.

Perhaps with hindsight he'll realise that Wigan isn't such a bad side after all, and I don't see Sky resembling any kind of Manchester, least of all United.

I'm sorry for him that he's not even remotely near where he was 12 months ago, both in his condition and the GC. I'd suggest that top 4 in the Tour and a good sniff of the podium was more than a fluke but it was still not going to be repeated this year. And the disappointment is heightened by the PR guff and the fact that "it's all about the Tour". There's a certain aged rider who kept him off the podium who hasn't got the legs in 2010 either (and there's no point Paul Sherwen waxing about his luck, plenty of other riders like Cadel Evans have had their share of suffering).

I think that comparing Wiggins and Sky with the England soccer team is really unfair. There's no way the Sky team could have ridden as badly as those monkeys - look at what Geraint Thomas has achieved for a start.

mididoctors

everybody who went to the giro looks a bit shagged... that race probably shortens your life..

Basso doesn't look as though he is coming good in the third.

pedro118118

I can understand the riders who went full gas for the win at the Giro falling short at the Tour. Hence the likes of Basso, Evans, Vino suffering. But Wiggo did the bear minimum in the last half of the rice and for a rider of his talent/ability, riding around in the grupetto should be a doddle.

stagehopper

It's all a bit hindsight in this thread really - I don't think anyone here expected him to do as well as last year because of the nature of the parcours. Wasn't general opinion that he'd just about get into top 10? As such that's the standard we should be looking at and he's clearly not on that form. (It's actually quite refreshing to be talking about form when it comes to GC riders though, as that's a measure of performance that disappeared by large chunks of the last two decades).

As for his value - British rider, finished fourth on GC in Tour - value dictated by publicity for riding for "home team" plus his presence undoubtedly oiled the selection procedure when it came to choosing the GT wildcards this year. I doubt Sky are regretting the spend. What they might be regretting, as wise heads were pointing out from last October, is the lack of battle hardened climbers/GC contenders in squad.

pedro118118

Wiggins is, with perhaps the exception of Cav and/or Hoy) the most high-profile British cyclist around. This, coupled with his 4th place Tour finish last year, rendered it unthinkable that the new Sky superteam wouldn't have Wiggo on board.

It would be embarrassing for Sky to have a massive budget, but still not have any of the best British riders in the pro peleton (with Cav at HTC, Wiggo and Millar at Garmin and Hammond at Cervelo).

It was/is a marriage of convenience for both sides.

mididoctors

stagehopper wrote:

It's all a bit hindsight in this thread really - I don't think anyone here expected him to do as well as last year because of the nature of the parcours. Wasn't general opinion that he'd just about get into top 10?

yeah

stagehopper wrote:

As such that's the standard we should be looking at and he's clearly not on that form. (It's actually quite refreshing to be talking about form when it comes to GC riders though, as that's a measure of performance that disappeared by large chunks of the last two decades).
.

I guess so +1

lochindaal

Did Sky not state their aim was to win the Tour within 5 years?

If they had kept this line going then not so much pressure on Wiggins. It would also have given them time to analyse and improve his numbers or a younger rider that may have more potential.

thamacdaddy

Also everyone criticising the team remember it was who they could get out of contracts. Actually think the biggest name that was so close to signing but didn't in the end was Nibali and in him I think you have a genuine GC contender in grand tours given the set up sky has compared. The young riders they have will come good they are at their respective age levels and I expect more signings this year. This months pro cycling has some of the agents giving good info on who was going where last year and what worked out and what didn't.

The person saying they should start small without the top equipment is talking out of his backside. Why limit what your team can do if you have the resources to give them the very best chance to be the best they personally can be. I don't think sky as a first season team have had a below par performance at all. They are visible and have a handful of results. If they hadn't had the hype people here would be talking them up like they do small teams with less resources. I get why people resent that but lets not go over the top with I told you so's most of you did the same with Cav... given time the set up at sky gives them everything to sign great riders and become a top team in terms of results not that this will help the fact they have a PR team and put so much "arrogance" as you guys see it out there means they probably will always rub people up the long way.

I mean look at this, wiggins admitting what you guys have been saying (sure his management appreciate that) and yet he still gets criticised. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Guess they need to do the equivalent of what Evans managed over the last year to get people to change the predjudices.

rick_chasey

thamacdaddy wrote:

I mean look at this, wiggins admitting what you guys have been saying (sure his management appreciate that) and yet he still gets criticised. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Wiggins was damned when he spent the whole season going on about how he's out to win the Tour, putting all his eggs in that basket, only to be rinsed.

We've seen many riders fall into a similar trap, of a one off Tour sucess, only to spend the rest of their career chasing something futile.

I mean, we even rip it out of Cunego, and he won the sodding Giro!

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

Wiggins was damned when he spent the whole season going on about how he's out to win the Tour, putting all his eggs in that basket, only to be rinsed.

We've seen many riders fall into a similar trap, of a one off Tour sucess, only to spend the rest of their career chasing something futile.

So you're damning him for having ambition. Having come fourth he had to try to devote everything to the big prize to see what happens. There's no point in thinking 'what if'. He's given it a go and came up short. No shame in that.

Had he not given it a go and concentrated on trying to win smaller races, as some suggested, then he would have deserved to be damned for a lack of ambition.

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Wiggins was damned when he spent the whole season going on about how he's out to win the Tour, putting all his eggs in that basket, only to be rinsed.

We've seen many riders fall into a similar trap, of a one off Tour sucess, only to spend the rest of their career chasing something futile.

So you're damning him for having ambition. Having come fourth he had to try to devote everything to the big prize to see what happens. There's no point in thinking 'what if'. He's given it a go and came up short. No shame in that.

Had he not given it a go and concentrated on trying to win smaller races, as some suggested, then he would have deserved to be damned for a lack of ambition.

There's giving it a good go, and there's spending your whole year building up to capitulate.

I'm not fussed either way. I never felt strongly for Wiggins either way, but I think he could have played it more cannily, and perhaps hedged himself a bit more.

It's tougher for him over 3 weeks becuase he doesn't necessarily have the same understanding of his body for that type of effort than people who have been focussed on the road their whole career, and he doesn't have the years left to learn that.

afx237vi

RichN95 wrote:

Had he not given it a go and concentrated on trying to win smaller races, as some suggested, then he would have deserved to be damned for a lack of ambition.

Why does it have to be either/or? You can still aim to peak your season around July whilst racing to win in other events.

I'm not saying he has to do a Contador and race to win everything (like a True Champion™), but even people like Menchov and Leipheimer occasionally test themselves outside the Tour.

If you base your entire season around an "all or nothing" strategy, then I think it's fair game to be critical when you end up with nothing.

Pokerface

lochindaal wrote:

Did Sky not state their aim was to win the Tour within 5 years?

If they had kept this line going then not so much pressure on Wiggins. It would also have given them time to analyse and improve his numbers or a younger rider that may have more potential.

I'm sure this is still the aim. Maybe a rider like Thomas can be developed into a GC contender.

cougie

Thomas or Kennaugh - they will be interesting in a few years. Thomas has already shown his potential in this race on several occasions.

thamacdaddy

afx237vi wrote:

I'm not saying he has to do a Contador and race to win everything (like a True Champion™), but even people like Menchov and Leipheimer occasionally test themselves outside the Tour.

Thats a decent point but I think benefit of the doubt is also fair. For example you have one chance a year to do the tour, you can only tweak your strategy season by season so if you consider that it’s not obvious what variables you need to push to give you that edge then you have to give things a shot. Imagine he had rode a lot more races (and it’s not like he didn’t ride in anything else) and pushed harder and came up with 5th losing one minute to third it’s fair to assume it would play on the mind “what if I had taken it easier”. Half of this is trial and error I think the unfortunate thing for Brad who got the taste properly after last year is he doesn’t have the years to play with being a GC contender and learning from different experiences.

Just wish people would admit there isn’t a right textbook approach to take and no one can honestly say they can do anything than take a best guess prior to seeing results. There is a lot you can do, and I know sky will have done but sometimes it just comes down to not having it. Once he went behind in two stages I think it is safe to say Wiggins let the daemons do the rest of the work to his head. Sport is won or lost in your head as much as the physical and I don’t doubt had he had one day where he had stormed it his position would be much better now. Like the blog post from wegulius said the other day although his body was saying no he knew he could complete the stage and made himself go on. On those climbs when it hurt so much and knowing that he had a lot at stake (as in last year early on had he lost a load of time one stage it probably didn’t matter) did Wiggins head tell him to step off and conserve where as with nothing to lose you might keep on going not worrying about consequences.

I say fair play to him for being honest and I know he has already said he fancies doing Roubaix and more classics next year etc so maybe that might be the right combination with a decent course. I like the fact he is willing to give it a whirl and although all the negativity here says he was cocky about it all the interviews I saw he was anything but stating that he simply had to give it the best he could, that it would be hard and who knows if he can really do it again as it kind of surprised him the year before but he had everything at sky to give him the opportunity to have a good go.