Maximum penalty for RLJ

spen666

Norky wrote:

spen666 wrote:

beverick wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

It's £30 for a bike. This is one of the reasons cited to me by London City Police as a reason they don't stop cars for entering the ASL (and effectively red light jumping) - they don't believe that it's fair that motorists pay £60 and cyclists only £30

IF that is correct re the police, then the LCC should be considering a Judicial Review of that decision as the policy is clearly ultra vires.

It is not for the police to decide whether penalties are appropriate or not.

Spen, you above others should know that this is nonsense. There is no specific offence covering motor vehicles entering the reservoir area associated with an ASL.

Bob

Oh dear Bob, you should know there is the offence of failing to stop at a traffic signal.

motor vehicles are required to stop on a red traffic light behind the first stop line

Oh Dog, I can't believe I'm getting drawn into this...

I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Beverick was making the point that there is no specific offence for entering an ASL reservoir that is separate and distinct from failure-to-stop-at-a-red-light. That is to say, he understands that entering the ASL area is an technically and offense under the law you have quoted, but it is not an offense in and of itself, and appears in practice to be treated differently to going entirely through a red stop light at the discretion of Police forces.

That is a bit like saying there is no specific offence of mudering someone whilst wearing a pink tutu

The offence if failing to obey the red traffic signal
It is a specific offence

how many offences do you want?

Crossing line by 1mm, then another for criossing it by 2mm, then 3mm etc

There is a specific offence. it is Regulation 36 as set out above.

Headhuunter

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

It's £30 for a bike. This is one of the reasons cited to me by London City Police as a reason they don't stop cars for entering the ASL (and effectively red light jumping) - they don't believe that it's fair that motorists pay £60 and cyclists only £30

I have to say, I do sort of agree with the police on this one - not the difference in the cost, but the fact that the two offenses are seen as the same thing.

In my opinion, going through a red light (i.e. passing the entire light on red and proceeding across the junction) is FAR more dangerous, for all parties, than a car/motorbike entering an ASL.

I am not saying that entering an ASL isn't dangerous, isn't extremely annoying - but it's a very different thing than actually going through the entire red light and crossing a junction.

Keep the fine for entering an ASL the same - but the fine for an actual RLJ should be increased to differentiate it from entering an ASL.

Something like 3 weeks in a hard-labour camp being forced to listen to Justin Beiber would do it I think.

I agree with you - but technically as the law stands they are the same offence. And it's not for the police to decide what offences they simply won't prosecute as they see the penalty as unfair - that's a job for Parliament.

I think I'm right in saying that no-one has ever been ticketed for entering an ASL?

Exactly. It's not up to the police to decide which laws they enforce and which they don't. It's irrelevant what they find fair and unfair just as it's irrelevant that I might think it's unfair that I might be fined anything at all for RLJ-ing.

I sent the email from the police with this statement in it to my local councillor who forwarded it to someone on the London Assembly who raised it with the police, she received some wishy washy back pedalling statement from the Police which she forwarded to me...

It would be fascinating to see what they said. Whilst I doubt you'd want to scan even redacted copies and put them on the web, if you could quote some of the "highlights" from the e-mail and their reply it would be most interesting...

I've mentioned this here quite a few times and I posted the entire original mail from the police here a few months back. Haven't posted the response though... Will try to dig it out of my inbox somewhere...

Clever Pun

spen666 wrote:

Clever Pun wrote:

spen666 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

It's £30 for a bike. This is one of the reasons cited to me by London City Police as a reason they don't stop cars for entering the ASL (and effectively red light jumping) - they don't believe that it's fair that motorists pay £60 and cyclists only £30

IF that is correct re the police, then the LCC should be considering a Judicial Review of that decision as the policy is clearly ultra vires.

It is not for the police to decide whether penalties are appropriate or not.

while you're right the police can quite easily be looking the other way....

I for one have certainly crossed the white line for the convienience of resting against some barrier or somesuch as long as I don't impinge on the jct or the ped crossing iteself... The police have been near when I've done this and there's no reaction, it works both ways (I guess they were looking somewhere else)

Turning a blind eye is different from having a policy decision to ignore offences

but the information has come form a plod... that aint no policy... that's just "sensible policing" and gleaming from a mate down the pub. The police would never advocate rlj

W1

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

W1 wrote:

marcusjb wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

It's £30 for a bike. This is one of the reasons cited to me by London City Police as a reason they don't stop cars for entering the ASL (and effectively red light jumping) - they don't believe that it's fair that motorists pay £60 and cyclists only £30

I have to say, I do sort of agree with the police on this one - not the difference in the cost, but the fact that the two offenses are seen as the same thing.

In my opinion, going through a red light (i.e. passing the entire light on red and proceeding across the junction) is FAR more dangerous, for all parties, than a car/motorbike entering an ASL.

I am not saying that entering an ASL isn't dangerous, isn't extremely annoying - but it's a very different thing than actually going through the entire red light and crossing a junction.

Keep the fine for entering an ASL the same - but the fine for an actual RLJ should be increased to differentiate it from entering an ASL.

Something like 3 weeks in a hard-labour camp being forced to listen to Justin Beiber would do it I think.

I agree with you - but technically as the law stands they are the same offence. And it's not for the police to decide what offences they simply won't prosecute as they see the penalty as unfair - that's a job for Parliament.

I think I'm right in saying that no-one has ever been ticketed for entering an ASL?

Exactly. It's not up to the police to decide which laws they enforce and which they don't. It's irrelevant what they find fair and unfair just as it's irrelevant that I might think it's unfair that I might be fined anything at all for RLJ-ing.

I sent the email from the police with this statement in it to my local councillor who forwarded it to someone on the London Assembly who raised it with the police, she received some wishy washy back pedalling statement from the Police which she forwarded to me...

It would be fascinating to see what they said. Whilst I doubt you'd want to scan even redacted copies and put them on the web, if you could quote some of the "highlights" from the e-mail and their reply it would be most interesting...

I've mentioned this here quite a few times and I posted the entire original mail from the police here a few months back. Haven't posted the response though... Will try to dig it out of my inbox somewhere...

Must have missed that - would be interested.

rich_e

The Police presumably don't bother to enforce ASL's because it's too much hassle and not worth their time. I believe they are in their rights to do so, because recently in the news in Islington the council has decided to make a small area a 20mph zone, down from 30mph.

The head of Police Traffic for the area came out and said they weren't going to bother to enforce it, as it wasn't worth their time and impossible to enforce.

It strikes me as being very similar to ASL's... it's technically the law, but it's almost like it might as well not be there.

Headhuunter

Rich_E wrote:

The Police presumably don't bother to enforce ASL's because it's too much hassle and not worth their time. I believe they are in their rights to do so, because recently in the news in Islington the council has decided to make a small area a 20mph zone, down from 30mph.

The head of Police Traffic for the area came out and said they weren't going to bother to enforce it, as it wasn't worth their time and impossible to enforce.

It strikes me as being very similar to ASL's... it's technically the law, but it's almost like it might as well not be there.

Lewisham BC made all side, residential roads 20mph limits a year or so ago and it hasn't made a blind bit of difference how fast people drive at and the police certainly don't enforce it. The council went to the expense of producing new street signs, painting enormous "20" signs on the road and installing great big ugly LED signs that read what speed traffic is passing at and then flashes up "Too Fast" or something, but everyone ignores them. Great investment of council tax....

spursn17

Headhuunter wrote:

It's £30 for a bike. This is one of the reasons cited to me by London City Police as a reason they don't stop cars for entering the ASL (and effectively red light jumping) - they don't believe that it's fair that motorists pay £60 and cyclists only £30

I was told this as well by a City of London traffic officer earlier this year, he also said it wasn't fair that drivers got 3 points for it as well. He just ignored me when I pointed out that the ASL box was there to protect vulnerable road users.

Another nail in the coffin of my respect for the police. I support the prosecution of RLJ's, but protect us as well.

Headhuunter

spursn17 wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

It's £30 for a bike. This is one of the reasons cited to me by London City Police as a reason they don't stop cars for entering the ASL (and effectively red light jumping) - they don't believe that it's fair that motorists pay £60 and cyclists only £30

I was told this as well by a City of London traffic officer earlier this year, he also said it wasn't fair that drivers got 3 points for it as well. He just ignored me when I pointed out that the ASL box was there to protect vulnerable road users.

Another nail in the coffin of my respect for the police. I support the prosecution of RLJ's, but protect us as well.

Me too. I was stopped by the police because I had crossed the ASL completely and positioned myself on the other side of it and the ped crossing. I stopped and waited there at the red. I only did it because the ASL was, as usual, full of cars, taxis and mopeds. As I moved away on green the police officer, eyes fully on me, stepped out to stop me. He didn't actually fine me. When I asked why he felt it necessary to stop me and not the cars in the ASL he replied that he had taken their reg plates down as well, which was a complete lie because I could see him on the other side of the road waiting to stop me. His eyes were fixed on me the entire time, not on the cars and mopeds. He also said something along the lines that I looked like the sort of cyclist who would jump through reds and insinuated that I had only stopped at red because I had seen him. I thought that was a very broad generalisation and assumption. I wrote a complaint to the City of London Police and they replied with a long wordy email in the middle of which was the following paragraph:

"I have regularly met with representatives from Transport for London, and there is a growing view that the penalty for a driver, for entering an ASL, of 3 points on the driving licence and a £60 fine is disproportionate to the actual offence, and the penalty for such is being reconsidered and may be brought in line with those of a cyclist, namely just a fine. I believe that this will result in greater enforcement activity as it may allow TfL to remotely enforce these junctions (with cameras), which will subsequently lead to greater compliance from drivers."

The London Assembly woman received a response which is a PDF image doc thing and I can't copy and paste from it but it essentially says that after consultation with cycling groups the City Police have realised there is a problem with vehicles infringing ASBs (Advance Stop Boxes) and they are due to commence a period of enforcement (the letter is from May 2010). It goes on to admit that more can be done with regard to enforcement of ASBs. So essentially a complete backdown from the original mail.

Not sure why it took a "consultation" to work out that drivers ignore ASB/ASLs... Take a walk round the City and you can see it happening at every junction!

spursn17

It would be good if the Met cottoned on to this as well.

I'm not holding my breath though.