Armstrong contradicts sworn testimony
Comments
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mididoctors wrote:dennisn wrote:mididoctors wrote:sherer wrote:when did the team stop being US Postal. Wasn't that in 04 anyway and if LA wasn't an owner of Tailwind until after the USPS sponsorship money stopped then he can't really be done for fraud of misuse of money
looks like that is going to be the defense...
Don't forget that there is no defense presented at the Grand Jury. Only if the matter goes to trial.
ok tactic to avoid trial then
if it is established he didn't have holdings then the charge is dropped/never indited etc irrespective of who persuaded who to take PEDS?
because the only crime being investigated is misuse of public monies?
is that right?
I hope you're not asking me what exactly is and is not being investigated. I have no real clue and if a Grand Jury is convened, and they decide there is not enough evidence, then we are all left out in the dark, as they are swore to secrecy.0 -
dennisn wrote:mididoctors wrote:dennisn wrote:mididoctors wrote:sherer wrote:when did the team stop being US Postal. Wasn't that in 04 anyway and if LA wasn't an owner of Tailwind until after the USPS sponsorship money stopped then he can't really be done for fraud of misuse of money
looks like that is going to be the defense...
Don't forget that there is no defense presented at the Grand Jury. Only if the matter goes to trial.
ok tactic to avoid trial then
if it is established he didn't have holdings then the charge is dropped/never indited etc irrespective of who persuaded who to take PEDS?
because the only crime being investigated is misuse of public monies?
is that right?
I hope you're not asking me what exactly is and is not being investigated. I have no real clue and if a Grand Jury is convened, and they decide there is not enough evidence, then we are all left out in the dark, as they are swore to secrecy.
so we do not even know what the crime being investigated is?"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
mididoctors wrote:dennisn wrote:mididoctors wrote:dennisn wrote:mididoctors wrote:sherer wrote:when did the team stop being US Postal. Wasn't that in 04 anyway and if LA wasn't an owner of Tailwind until after the USPS sponsorship money stopped then he can't really be done for fraud of misuse of money
looks like that is going to be the defense...
Don't forget that there is no defense presented at the Grand Jury. Only if the matter goes to trial.
ok tactic to avoid trial then
if it is established he didn't have holdings then the charge is dropped/never indited etc irrespective of who persuaded who to take PEDS?
because the only crime being investigated is misuse of public monies?
is that right?
I hope you're not asking me what exactly is and is not being investigated. I have no real clue and if a Grand Jury is convened, and they decide there is not enough evidence, then we are all left out in the dark, as they are swore to secrecy.
so we do not even know what the crime being investigated is?
No. I'm saying that I myself am not up the full speed on everything that's happening.
Perhaps "iainf72" could comment. He seems to be able to find, and read, pretty much all the cycling news and if anyones UP on all this he is.0 -
don't forget this isn't just about LA it's about whether government money was used to fund a doping programme. if that is the case then whoever was in control of USPS \ Tailwind Sports will be on charge and then LA could just be a witness.
It's not all about trying to pin something on LA0 -
dennisn wrote:No. I'm saying that I myself am not up the full speed on everything that's happening.
Perhaps "iainf72" could comment. He seems to be able to find, and read, pretty much all the cycling news and if anyones UP on all this he is.
We don't know, but the likely suspects include
- Fraud (against US government and others)
- Tax Evasion
- Perjury
- Drug SmugglingFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:dennisn wrote:No. I'm saying that I myself am not up the full speed on everything that's happening.
Perhaps "iainf72" could comment. He seems to be able to find, and read, pretty much all the cycling news and if anyones UP on all this he is.
We don't know, but the likely suspects include
- Fraud (against US government and others)
- Tax Evasion
- Perjury
- Drug Smuggling
I think one of the reasons that we don't know is that whatever agencies are investigating whomever and whatever, they are not out there spouting off about it like the starring and supporting casts are doing.0 -
dennisn wrote:
I think one of the reasons that we don't know is that whatever agencies are investigating whomever and whatever, they are not out there spouting off about it like the starring and supporting casts are doing.
Who from the support cast has "spouted off"?
No one really. The journalists have been using their contacts to find out what's going on but there really isn't any kind of media campaign by Landis et al. His original emails went to the authorities and were leaked by someone else.
Until yesterday Landis' legal team had made no public statements.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
iainf72 wrote:dennisn wrote:
I think one of the reasons that we don't know is that whatever agencies are investigating whomever and whatever, they are not out there spouting off about it like the starring and supporting casts are doing.
Who from the support cast has "spouted off"?
No one really. The journalists have been using their contacts to find out what's going on but there really isn't any kind of media campaign by Landis et al. His original emails went to the authorities and were leaked by someone else.
Until yesterday Landis' legal team had made no public statements.
I meant it as sort of tongue in cheek. It seems like most everyone has something to say,
except the people who are looking into this whole "affair" and they are the ones that count.0 -
dennisn wrote:
I meant it as sort of tongue in cheek. It seems like most everyone has something to say,
except the people who are looking into this whole "affair" and they are the ones that count.
Oh yes, agreed. I would suggest some of the leaks are to put pressure on people and force a mistake.
But we only know a tiny part of what is happening.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
Greg Lemond subpoenaed - order to turn over papers related to all LA led teams & Trek lawsuit http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... probe.html0
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I've no idea whats being investigated, and at this time with wine inside me I couldn't care less!! There's more important things in the world, like where my next drink is coming from!Cannondale Supersix 105 2013- summer bike - love it!
Cannondale CAAD12 - racing fun!
Trek Crockett 5 - CX bike, muddy fun!
Scott Scale 940 MTB XC racer.
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dennisn wrote:Dave_1 wrote:Moray Gub wrote:dennisn wrote:iainf72 wrote:Thing I just learnt : At a Grand Jury in the US, when someone is questioned, they will generally not have a lawyer present.
Usually the DEFENDENT is not even present and if he / she is present they most likely won't have a lawyer..
Whats is the point of Grand Jury arent they just doing the job of a DA or public prosecutor or in my country a Procurator Fiscal who decides if there is enough evidence to go to trail. Seems like a waste of public money to me.
+ 1
FWIW the Grand Jury concept was started in England in 1166 by Henry II.
Aye well that doesnt surprise me the English have always found ways to complicate things ,anyway if this falls at the Grand Jury stage i suppose we should look forward to months and months of LA paid of the Jury speculation :roll:Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
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Is the State Pen as cushy as Uk Jails?
If Armstrong goes to jail will he be able to Tweet from there?0 -
lucybears wrote:
Good concise article full of facts that one eh !
has reported ,anonymous sources,Evidence suggested ,is expected
"Well, we could be still talking about this one in 2016.”Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Moray Gub wrote:
FWIW the Grand Jury concept was started in England in 1166 by Henry II.
Aye well that doesnt surprise me the English have always found ways to complicate things
What, you mean Henry II, born in Le Mans, France, spent his childhood in his father's land of Anjou? First Plantagenent to hold the English throne?
Very English.....
May cast some light on the seemingly random justice on display in the tour of.......France!
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dougzz wrote:
That will be decided on this side of the border not yours, you are a part of this union until we decide otherwise. Gasping - but somehow still alive !0 -
Well I've read a lot of links from other forum users that were kindly put up for me - thanks fellas - and it has opened my eyes to what MAY have gone on, but there is a hell of a lot of evidence to suggest all with the LA story may not be what it is.
However, I can't seem to get past the amount of tests that he has had and is found negative (although I am reading up on blood transfusions, etc) so maybe I'll become a bit more clever in the coming weeks.0 -
Negative tests dont really mean much. Look at the festina affair - the whole team bar one or two doping and they were only busted when they found the drugs in the team car, Not in the riders. Same with Millar too, and many more too.0
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A few relevant points:dg74 wrote:I can't seem to get past the amount of tests that he has had and is found negative
• Right through the Armstrong era autologous blood doping was undetectable.
• A test for Epo was not introduced until 2001.
• Even today Epo cannot be detected after 2 days or so, or as short as 8 hours with 'micro-dosing'.
• There were also 'rumours' of USP using the traditional urine substitution trick - basically catheterizing the riders with clean urine, with comment being passed that after hard, hot Alpine stages Armstrong and co were providing samples as clear and clean as 'baby piss'.
• Armstrong was based in Spain a lot of the time and Jesus Manzano stated that the USP / Disco team doctor, Del Moral, was a good friend of Walter Viru, the owner of the Spanish UCI accredited testing lab, and that Viru used to tip off both USP /Disco and Kelme when the UCI 'vampiries' were coming.
• As you know, there have also been claims that when the team did slip up, the UCI were not adverse to covering up for Armstrong (that positive for corticosteroids in the 1999 Tour, the alleged positive for Epo in the 2001 Tour of Switzerland).
• Many doping products are still undetectable.0 -
And who would know any better than the Doctors/Pharmacists that he deals with in the cancer foundation.??BikingBernie wrote:• Many doping products are still undetectable.Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
For those demanding a positive test from Armstrong, don't you find it interesting that the UCI have moved towards a longitudinal passport system that looks at the bigger picture, tacitly admitting that the tests just don't work?
(PS I have little faith that the passport really works either after recent revelations but perhaps serves as a greater deterrent than the easily bypassed one off tests)0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
A few relevant points:dg74 wrote:I can't seem to get past the amount of tests that he has had and is found negative
• Right through the Armstrong era autologous blood doping was undetectable.
• A test for Epo was not introduced until 2001.
• Even today Epo cannot be detected after 2 days or so, or as short as 8 hours with 'micro-dosing'.
• There were also 'rumours' of USP using the traditional urine substitution trick - basically catheterizing the riders with clean urine, with comment being passed that after hard, hot Alpine stages Armstrong and co were providing samples as clear and clean as 'baby piss'.
• Armstrong was based in Spain a lot of the time and Jesus Manzano stated that the USP / Disco team doctor, Del Moral, was a good friend of Walter Viru, the owner of the Spanish UCI accredited testing lab, and that Viru used to tip off both USP /Disco and Kelme when the UCI 'vampiries' were coming.
• As you know, there have also been claims that when the team did slip up, the UCI were not adverse to covering up for Armstrong (that positive for corticosteroids in the 1999 Tour, the alleged positive for Epo in the 2001 Tour of Switzerland).
• Many doping products are still undetectable.
Many good points, Bernie, thank you.
Very true about the corticosteroids episode. The other things is why the secret (or not so secret now) donations to the UCI? The whole, quote "to help find new ways to detect doping" unquote, is suspicious in itself. Why?
Ah man, I hate witch hunts but I feel I'm slap bang in the middle of one (albeit on an internet forum) 0 -
Marian Jones underwent 200 tests vs. Lance's 64 tests is a figure I've seen talked of.
Lemond's wife welcomed the subpoenaes to be able to talk about what they know.
Armstrong's name would be mud if the Armstrong camp allegedly would have paid $300,000 to someone to say Lemond used EPO. Very bad if that happened and that is the kind of thing someone could go to gaol for.0
