When & Where Did it Change?

Paulie W

rjsterry wrote:

Than when? I know I am partly responsible for another mini-baby boom, but compared with the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when a lot of the attitudes to children held by my grandparents' generation developed, the population as a whole was a lot younger, and having BJUK-sized families was not uncommon. I should probably go off and trawl through the censuses (sp?) before I make any more unfounded claims, but there you go.

I was thinking in relation to relatively recent times, i.e. 70s, 80s, rather than the Victorian era, although even then while there were lots of children there weren't as many teenagers because of mortality rates among the young.

rjsterry

Paulie W wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Than when? I know I am partly responsible for another mini-baby boom, but compared with the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, when a lot of the attitudes to children held by my grandparents' generation developed, the population as a whole was a lot younger, and having BJUK-sized families was not uncommon. I should probably go off and trawl through the censuses (sp?) before I make any more unfounded claims, but there you go.

I was thinking in relation to relatively recent times, i.e. 70s, 80s, rather than the Victorian era, although even then while there were lots of children there weren't as many teenagers because of mortality rates among the young.

Although to further confuse things, in that era, teenagers would have just been classified as young adults. The term teenager is a relatively new invention ('50s or '60s I think).

bails87

The Hundredth Idiot wrote:

It's only been 70 years since the war - does anyone really think us Brits would have got the hang of another language so quickly?

It's at least so long ago that the "they fought for this country" argument is beginning to wear a little thin. Anyone who fought on even the final day of WW2 would now be in their 80s.

There's a load of 60 to 80 year olds getting a good reputation based on stuff their parents might have done! :twisted:

dudu wrote:

BTW, why should my generation be denigrated when we've spent 40 years working down t'pit ..........?

Who's 'denigrating' anyone? :?

Paulie W

I only wish I'd 'ad chance to work down pit - Thatcher closed 'em all down when I were a lad!

Monkeypump

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Are you asking me or DDD?

I'm saying that children certainly SHOULD be chastised where/when needed. Agree with all your points above.

The simple, blanket statement that "chastising kids does more harm than good" is absurd.

glauciaregina9

spen666 wrote:

Had to travel in by public transport today. tube and train and noticed on tube that carriage seats were all occupied by a class of school kids aged circa 10- 11 years old. Thus all adult had to stand.

This is not an unusal phenomenom. I often see parents with their children occupying seats whilst adults including pensioners are having to stand.

Indeed, I have seen parents asking adults to give up their seat so the child can sit down, or complaining loudly how no adult has given up their seat for their child.

When I was a child, it was the opposite way round and children were only allowed to occupy seats if they were not required for adult usage. It used to be a condition of carriage on the nationalised bus services pre de regulation ( not sure re Tube/ trains).

So, when did the change happen?

Gradual erosion of basic manners, respect and general consideration for someone other than yourself, a disgusting trait that's becoming prevalent in all areas of society

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

DonDaddyD

Monkeypump wrote:

Are you asking me or DDD?

I'm saying that children certainly SHOULD be chastised where/when needed. Agree with all your points above.

The simple, blanket statement that "chastising kids does more harm than good" is absurd.

Talking to a child, being patient and explaining to them where they've gone wrong too hard for you I take it?

Far easier to yell at them, gang up on them and shun them. Yep that'll teach them their place in society and how to be a part of it. Certainly creates a calm, well adjusted youth that does.

Absurd? the only thng absurd is that some still believe in archaic notions like chastising is OK.

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

You're talking about a specific type of child here. Young offenders are perhaps more likely to have come from backgrounds which have meant severe lack of positive reinforcement has led to negative behaviour, so they need to be coaxed back into the world and feel that it';s not them against us, so to speak.

Essentially every child is different and it's absolutely impossible to say that you should NEVER chastise ANY child or they will automatically going to shut down. Sorry but that's complete rubbish.

NOT telling off certain children is as counter productive as telling off others, it's down to professionals who work with kids to work out what is best for each and every child rather than make blanket statements like "smacking children is bad". Unfortunately resources are often not available to give every child a tailor made upbringing outside the home environment.

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

As for taking criticism or being told off by my colleagues/boss, yes, if after the event and on balance I realised that I was in the wrong and they were right all along I would happily take what they have to say, take a deep breath and move on having learned a lesson. It's called taking it on the chin and realising that we all make mistakes.

Of course to a certain extent it depends on how the criticism is made and by whom, that's all down to management and interpersonal skills but it doesn't generally make me want to punch my colleague/boss in the face. Well not always anyway....

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter


Actually, I could talk about any child. I could talk about basic human reaction.

The fact of the matter is that in all instances this is the case:

lack of positive reinforcement has led to negative behaviour, so they need to be coaxed back into the world and feel that it';s not them against us, so to speak.

You wrote it yourself so you tell me how chasitising ANYONE can lead to anything but an immediate negative reaction?

What certainly isn't going to happen is that child coming out of their shell anytime soon. When they are in their shell, its harder to engage and communicate with them, so again I ask how are you going to get a positive long term or short term reaction from the child? How can you even be certain they've learnt anything?

NOT telling off certain children is as counter productive as telling off others, it's down to professionals who work with kids to work out what is best for each and every child rather than make blanket statements like "smacking children is bad". Unfortunately resources are often not available to give every child a tailor made upbringing outside the home environment.

I never said you should never tell off or punish a child. I was being specific, I said chastising a child - specifically in the form of three adults ganging up to discuss how bad a child has behaved infront of the child - will only likely have a negative effect on that child.

notsoblue

DECLINE!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yob6FejcU1g

Everything is less good when compared with my detail lacking memories of the past.

Tish and fipsy, I say.

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter wrote:

As for taking criticism or being told off by my colleagues/boss, yes, if after the event and on balance I realised that I was in the wrong and they were right all along I would happily take what they have to say, take a deep breath and move on having learned a lesson. It's called taking it on the chin and realising that we all make mistakes.

Of course to a certain extent it depends on how the criticism is made and by whom, that's all down to management and interpersonal skills but it doesn't generally make me want to punch my colleague/boss in the face. Well not always anyway....

But your proving my point.

The point of the matter is that there are better ways of getting children to understand where they've gone wrong, there are better ways of getting them to behave in class. Than having a group of adults gang up on them and berate them verbally.

The best teachers don't need to phone parents and/or shout/yell at children.

It all comes down to interpersonal skills and to a large degree management.

I've seen it many times, the guys at my school that ended up angry and no good were often shouted at by teachers, their parents, shunned etc. It left them angry and frustrated a frustration that later grew as they became adults.

wgwarburton

Hi,
It's worth bearing in mind that a lot of today's children are confident, bright, creative thinkers who's apparent lack of traditional "education" (3 Rs, grammer, spelling, "knowing their place") is balanced by knowledge of the internet (for example) and wider world, excellent oral communication skills, problem-solving ability and cultural and social sensitivity...

The past is another country, they do things differently there....

Cheers,
W.

Monkeypump

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

First point - starting each of your responses with a "Sigh..." is a) condescending (today seems to be a day for it), and b) annoying. We're talking about children, you're not talking TO one.

Second, this may have been studied, but proven? I strongly believe that it is impossible to apply a blanket approach to all children. Data may suggest that there is a 'better' way to discipline kids, but it won't work for them all.

Now, the dictionary definition of 'chastise' includes words like "reprimand severely" which I think is certainly necessary in some cases. Other included definitions, such as "corporal punishment" are far more difficult to justify.

Severe reprimands do not automatically lead to feelings of being 'ganged up on' and do not need to include any yelling. Severity can be communicated rationally.

And whilst it might not be ideal, boundaries are learnt when consequences are understood. An angry parent or teacher sends a clear message, and is balanced if its in an environment where praise and encouragement is given when due.

Finally, just like Headhunter, if I was in the wrong at work and got a b*llocking, I'd take it on the chin, learn from it and move on. Unfortunately that isn't the way things work in the corporate environment.

(Resisting temptation to end this post with a smug "Right" to underline the fact that I've made my point. Or think I have, at least).

DonDaddyD

Monkeypump wrote:

First point - starting each of your responses with a "Sigh..." is a) condescending (today seems to be a day for it), and b) annoying. We're talking about children, you're not talking TO one.

Sigh...

You may not like me saying this. But i'm going to say it anyway.

Get over yourself, how I choose to start and sign off my posts are my choosing, how you choose to react or even engage is yours.

Right.

Second, this may have been studied, but proven? I strongly believe that it is impossible to apply a blanket approach to all children. Data may suggest that there is a 'better' way to discipline kids, but it won't work for them all.

No it won't work for all of them. But there is also an understanding of basic human behaviour, shouting at someone severely or engaging with a human in a negative and or aggressive way usually has the same affects throughout the entire species. So I think it is safe to say that it would be a rare case to find a child who reacts positively to being chasitised.

Now, the dictionary definition of 'chastise' includes words like "reprimand severely" which I think is certainly necessary in some cases. Other included definitions, such as "corporal punishment" are far more difficult to justify.

Severe reprimands do not automatically lead to feelings of being 'ganged up on' and do not need to include any yelling. Severity can be communicated rationally.

I know what chastise means, I was also speaking in the context of the scenario Headhunnter described, which was that of a child being chastised by a teacher and their parents. In that scenario most children will feel ganged up on. So much so is this the case that people working with children professionally are advised not to do it and if say social services need to interview a child they do (well are supposed to do it) in a controlled 1:1 environment. This is done so the child can feel like they can speak freely.

Like I said if an adult is shouting or serverly telling off a child - you could argue intimidating them - then how does that child learn or feel safe that they can express themselves and any problems in that situation.

Some children misbehave because they are being bullied. Example: kid not going to school because they are getting bullied. The teachers find out, call the parents in, they tell the child off never really getting to the bottom of how or why the child is doing so. And because of their anger the child reverts into their shell and doesn't feel like they can confide in them or tell them about the bullying, they don't feel like they've got the support of the teacher or parent. That's how its counter-productive. And yes this is one example but its the principle behind it. That we should work with children, not rule over them and alienate them as they have been in the past.

And whilst it might not be ideal, boundaries are learnt when consequences are understood. An angry parent or teacher sends a clear message,

No it doesn't, it sends the message that the parent is angry.

Right.

Monkeypump

Anyway, on a brighter note, I'm off to see Penn & Teller.

Will catch up on this later!

Monkeypump

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sigh....

What does the World look like when you look through it from your belly? Frankly, life is too short engaging with someone who takes themself so seriously they feel it necessary to address how someone starts a post.

I think i might just go and enjoy that life.

I'm Done

Sigh...

Try to see the world beyond the tip of your nose, DDD...

Monkeypump

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sigh....

What does the World look like when you look through it from your belly? Frankly, life is too short engaging with someone who takes themself so seriously they feel it necessary to address how someone starts a post.

I think i might just go and enjoy that life.

I'm Done

Sigh...

Try to see the world beyond the tip of your nose, DDD...

A timely edit though...

Headhuunter

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

First point - starting each of your responses with a "Sigh..." is a) condescending (today seems to be a day for it), and b) annoying. We're talking about children, you're not talking TO one.

Second, this may have been studied, but proven? I strongly believe that it is impossible to apply a blanket approach to all children. Data may suggest that there is a 'better' way to discipline kids, but it won't work for them all.

Now, the dictionary definition of 'chastise' includes words like "reprimand severely" which I think is certainly necessary in some cases. Other included definitions, such as "corporal punishment" are far more difficult to justify.

Severe reprimands do not automatically lead to feelings of being 'ganged up on' and do not need to include any yelling. Severity can be communicated rationally.

And whilst it might not be ideal, boundaries are learnt when consequences are understood. An angry parent or teacher sends a clear message, and is balanced if its in an environment where praise and encouragement is given when due.

Finally, just like Headhunter, if I was in the wrong at work and got a b*llocking, I'd take it on the chin, learn from it and move on. Unfortunately that isn't the way things work in the corporate environment.

(Resisting temptation to end this post with a smug "Right" to underline the fact that I've made my point. Or think I have, at least).

Completely agree. DDD, I think we're confusing terminology to a certain extent. When I say chastise I mean tell off, berate etc etc, it's all the same thing. I understand what you're saying that there are other ways to address problems and a teacher initiating a parent teacher conference with the kid present is not necessarily the 1st thing on the list but it's a way to co ordinate between parents and teacher to adress behavioural issues. This appoach would be better used after continual "re offending".

There are certain kids for whom touchy feely talks about "issues" work and bring them out of their shell and address underlying problems but there are other kids who will continually rebel and push boundaries as far as they can and need something firmer than a nice sit down and a cup of tea to talk things through. These kids need something more forceful as they are already waaaay out of their shells. As I said, professionals who work with children ignore a good old fashioned telling off at their peril

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

Sigh....

I wasn't taught but told that it was the decent thing to give up your seat to a pregnant or elderly person. I wouldn't, unless the person had a clear physical disability, give up my seat or expect to give up my seat for a person aged between 10 - 65 (unless properly granny frail) and I wouldn't expect my child to either. Equally I wouldn't expect them to give their seat to my child.

As for children being put on a pedalstal... they are the future so should be nutured and not brushed aside as invalid until they're adults.

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Really?

Proof or the opinion of some anti smacking "expert"?

spen666

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

It clearly works doesn't it?

We don't have gangs of kids killing each other with knives or guns, dealing drugs, drinking to excess and demanding respect from others whilst giving none do we?

Oh wait a minute.....

daviesee

Headhuunter wrote:

NOT telling off certain children is as counter productive as telling off others, it's down to professionals who work with kids to work out what is best for each and every child rather than make blanket statements like "smacking children is bad". Unfortunately resources are often not available to give every child a tailor made upbringing outside the home environment.

Unfortunately this is where it all goes wrong - parents absolving themselves of any responsibilities.
Children should know how to behave before they go to school and certainly before secondary school.
If the parents can't handle it then yes, they should seek professional help but they should try at least. I see so many cases of parents leaving it up to the school to teach their children absolutely everything. Manners, respect, how to eat etc, etc. should be taught in the home along with a basic level of education. Maybe the parents don't know any better but that's where it went wrong and it had to start somewhere.
It's always someone else's fault :evil:

PS:- Isn't the fight supposed to be on another thread?

bails87

spen666 wrote:

It clearly works doesn't it?

We don't have adults killing each other with knives or guns, dealing drugs, drinking to excess and demanding respect from others whilst giving none do we?

Oh wait a minute.....

Fixed that for you

DonDaddyD

Headhuunter wrote:

There are certain kids for whom touchy feely talks about "issues" work and bring them out of their shell and address underlying problems but there are other kids who will continually rebel and push boundaries as far as they can and need something firmer than a nice sit down and a cup of tea to talk things through. These kids need something more forceful as they are already waaaay out of their shells. As I said, professionals who work with children ignore a good old fashioned telling off at their peril

Most teenagers of my brother's generation don't respond well to being shouted out. They didn't when they were children.

You shouldn't need to smack a small child.

A person who loses their temper with a child or teenager is a person who has lost control of themself and run out of ideas.

Conflict resolution courses (such as those that deal with teaching people to deal with a group of unsociable teenagers) teaches that to engage with anyone you don't project negativitiy i.e. shout at them.

All I am saying is that there are other, proven, more productive methods.

Have kids, find out. I benefit from having a girlfriend in family law, teachers as friends, friends as parents, a 16 year old brother, several cousins of varying ages from 5 - 27, professional training, a friend who dealt with young offenders and now pedophiles.

wgwarburton

spen666 wrote:

...We don't have gangs of kids killing each other with knives or guns, dealing drugs, drinking to excess and demanding respect from others whilst giving none do we?.....

Nope, generally speaking we don't.

Cheers,
W.

cee

Not really OT, but a slight angling....

Not talking about children here...but a little older...maybe 16-20 year old young adults..

Does anyone think there is a difference between the way young women behave, in comparison to young men...when for example an elderley person gets on a bus with no seats available?

In my experience...I have witnessed plenty of young men give up their seat....but very few (if any actually) young women.......

I believe that young men are still expected to give up a seat (by themselves and others), whilst young women are not (maybe by others, but not by themselves..)

rjsterry

spen666 wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

Monkeypump wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Also Heady, its long since been proven that chastising a child does more harm than good. Before the rest of you corduroy wearers get uppity, yes it might not have done you no wrong, but then you aren't subject to the same social influences as the kids are of today.

Ahem... what a load of old cobbs. Must resist urge to open can of worms... rant... etc. :evil:

So you're saying that children should not be chastised? Never? I think that does just as much if not more damage than telling them off. I'm not demanding the return of corporal punishment and certainly some parents spend more time shouting at their kids than they do praising and encouraging but there needs to be some balance. I don't see how the way the world has changed in the last 20-100 years makes 1 iota of difference to basic values we should instil in our kids. Yes they are the future but they also need to be grounded!

Sigh...

I know placing children in a situation where they feel ganged up on will only produce an adverse reaction. (This has been studied it has been proven it is what is trained to many, myself, my girlfriend, my friend who worked with young offenders oh and parents as well). It is why even parents are advised to talk to their children 1:1 and calmly as oppose to having both parents yelling at them.

So if you place a child in a scenario where its them vs their teacher and their parents. How is that going to be productive, how are they going to get to the bottom of the situation? More likely the child is going to shuit down, not open up, agree for the sake of it and learn nothing.

This is why if a child is held for questioning, being told off or placed in any situation, which involves consultation with an adult. It is usually conducted in a 1:1 enviroment where the child feels safe and able to express themselves.

If you were chastised at work by your boss and their manager are you seriously telling me you would react to that in a productive way?

Right.

It clearly works doesn't it?

We don't have gangs of kids killing each other with knives or guns, dealing drugs, drinking to excess and demanding respect from others whilst giving none do we?

Oh wait a minute.....

Horrific as those cases are, there are relatively few of them. My impression is that the numbers are of a similar order of magnitude to cycling deaths/injuries, but someone can correct me on that. I think there is a perception that teenagers are all thugs wandering the streets, but most of them are fine and a large proportion of those that do 'roam the streets' are all mouth and no trousers.

If everyone believes that teenagers are threatening, and acts as though they are threatening when in their company, it becomes a bit of a self fulfilling prophesy doesn't it?

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

There are certain kids for whom touchy feely talks about "issues" work and bring them out of their shell and address underlying problems but there are other kids who will continually rebel and push boundaries as far as they can and need something firmer than a nice sit down and a cup of tea to talk things through. These kids need something more forceful as they are already waaaay out of their shells. As I said, professionals who work with children ignore a good old fashioned telling off at their peril

Most teenagers of my brother's generation don't respond well to being shouted out. They didn't when they were children.

You shouldn't need to smack a small child.

A person who loses their temper with a child or teenager is a person who has lost control of themself and run out of ideas.

Conflict resolution courses (such as those that deal with teaching people to deal with a group of unsociable teenagers) teaches that to engage with anyone you don't project negativitiy i.e. shout at them.

All I am saying is that there are other, proven, more productive methods.

Have kids, find out. I benefit from having a girlfriend in family law, teachers as friends, friends as parents, a 16 year old brother, several cousins of varying ages from 5 - 27, professional training, a friend who dealt with young offenders and now pedophiles.

It has nothing to do with "generations"! Just because a kid is 15 now makes no difference to values that need to be instilled. The toolbox of methods we can use to teach kids has broadened. Pandering to kids of your brother's "generation" leads to as many problems as over use of corporal punishement in my fathers day.

I have plenty of experience with kids. I'm a godparent and an uncle to 2 kids and uncle or cousin somehow removed to a few others. My dad was a teacher, so was his sister and her husband, so was their father back in the 1930s until the 1950s and so was my mum's mum. One of my Uncles teaches French at Cambridge and a couple of my mums cousins are also teachers, not to mention 3 or 4 of my friends here in London. Back in 2004 I almost signed up to start a PGCE myself! I also taught English in high schools in Japan for 2 years and studied TEFL before I did that.

Believe me, I have had my fair share of child teaching methodologies over the years!

Paulie W

spen666 wrote:

It clearly works doesn't it?

We don't have gangs of kids killing each other with knives or guns, dealing drugs, drinking to excess and demanding respect from others whilst giving none do we?

Oh wait a minute.....

There were comparable social problems in the Victorian era (underpinned by poverty) and yet the status of the child in the Victorian era is where much of this 'respect your elders', 'children should be seen and not heard', 'spare the rod and spoil the child', had its origins! So let's not pretend that a good clip round the ear is the solution to all youth's social ills.

I think the lack of respect that the younger generation is sometimes said to show reflects a shift in perceptions of age across society, a greater empowerment of the young (for good or ill) through things like the internet and a whole range of other factors (some of which are alluded to above).

Knife crime and binge drinking are reflective of something else in my view and shouldnt be lumped in with the 'problem' of the child who doesnt hold the door open for you. It is reflective of issues around poverty (relative and absolute), immigration, employment, housing...