Can a mororists insurance company claim against me?

Dunkindiver

I'll put this in this forum as I'm not sure where else to post it!

Several months ago I was taking my son to school, I was riding my old Marin Muirwoods, with a pull along attached, which my six year old son was sitting/riding on.

We were cycling on a wide pavement quite slowly (my lads a big boy!) when a car pulled out of a drive way in front of us and we went into the front nearside by the tyre

We both fell off, but fortunately there was no harm done, although we were both shook up and my little lad was quite shocked.

What then amazed me, was the attitude of the car driver, who just sat in the car mouthing off at me, now with the best self control in the world, one is going to get a little upset that the driver has not got out of his car or even bothered to inquire as to our health, so the usual verbal argy bargy ensued, with him offering to "give me one", under normal circumstances I might have taken up his offer, he being overweight and purple with rage, however, I was more concerned about my son and the fact my bike wheel was buckled.

The only damage I noticed to his car (Vectra) was a small 6in grill has fallen out of the front bumper, which I picked up and tossed to one side.

As soon as I removed my bike, which I had left leaning across the front of his car, he drove off before I got his details or could take a photo.

I reported the incident to the police, who informed me he had also reported it, the police took no further action.

Today I have received a Bill for £550 for 50% of the cost of the damage to his company car.

Am I liable to pay this, bearing in mind, there were no witnesses and he drove off before I could photograph his car and the actual damage I did was in the order of £20 for a push in grill, not £1100 the accident repair ship has invoiced for.

Am I liable for this cost?, the fleet management company seemed certain I was, during the conversation I had with them this evening

tarpaullynn

Can't help with your question but are you in a union or do you have any legal cover on your home insurance?

Unions have legal helplines and your home insurance might have one as well.

turnerjohn

are you a member of CTC ? they do free legal cover so would be first point of call.
The guy sounds like an arse, but he would argue that you were riding on the pavement...now it would be different if it was a pedestrian I know but tis the law.
Good luck and I hope you dont have to pay up....anyways being a company car his company would get the bill so he would be off scott free anyway !

Buckled_Rims

Get legal advice.

He's pulling a fast one. Don't admit anything, say anything, don't sign or have any correspondence without consulting a solicitor. He will be your representative. You need to prove exactly where and who owns the land the accident happened before you even start.

I reckon he doesn't have a leg to stand on as he refused to wait for photographic evidence, no witnesses and bad driving. The bad temper (for example) might be because he was still drunk from a nights drinking and that's why he refused to stay in case he got breath tested (hint hint).

Again, DO NOT TALK to anyone but a solicitor! The fleet management company will laughing all the way to the bank at your expense.

I'm just glad the small un and you are OK.

MattC59

You could have trouble here.

Bottom line, in the eyes of the law, you were cycling on the pavement. His argument could be that he looked, there was no one in view, and you being on a bike appeared faster than he expected.

Tenuous I know, but could be tricky. Let us know how it goes.

Dunkindiver

There is no way he could have looked, he would be completely blind until he was level with his gate posts!

larfingravy

Refuse to pay.

Thank the insurers for providing their details and submit a claim for the damage to your bike etc.

Weejie54

I would certainly not pay the bill. Unless you have cyclist's insurance, the other party's insurance company would have to take it to court, and the fact that the driver drove away without gaining witness names and addresses etc would not lead to much of a case.
In fact, there are two of you and one of him!
The advice to consult a lawyer is sound. You could consult a Citizens' Advice Bureau.

MattC59

Dunkindiver wrote:

There is no way he could have looked, he would be completely blind until he was level with his gate posts!

But........ you were cycling where you shouldn't have been, on the pavement, and you hit him.

Had he hit you, and you were on the pavement, pavement or not, he would have been at fault.

Had you been on the road and he'd hit you, case closed, his fault (unless you were cyclig like a d*ck, but it doesn't sound like you were )

I'm not trying to be negative, you just need to view it from a black and white, legal perspective, that's what the insurance company will do.

Dunkindiver

But........ you were cycling where you shouldn't have been, on the pavement, and you hit him.

Had he hit you, and you were on the pavement, pavement or not, he would have been at fault.

Well as I hit his nearside front and we were both moving, it's debatable as to who hit who!

He came right out in front of me, I didn't have time to brake!

John.T

Your house / contents insurance should cover you for third party risk if you do not have other third party cover (CTC, BC etc).

thistle_

Like other people are saying, you were riding on the pavement which doesn't put you in a good light. You may have had a good reason for this but that doesn't matter to them and they will probably try and use it against you.

That's why you need to get some proper advice.

You don't say if he was coming out of the drive forwards of backwards, but the rule of thumb always was whoever drives into the side of the vehicle is at fault because they should be looking where they are going.
This can be countered by saying the other person was going too fast (dangerously so) but an expert will know all these little things you could use.

You say it was a £20 grille - so you could challenge the costs of the repairs as being excessive. You've also sustained damage to your vehicle so you could counterclaim for this.

I assume he was driving on the footway on an approved and licenced footway crossing, and that the poor visibilty from the driveway was OKd by the council at the time of the application?

Buckled_Rims

MattC59 wrote:

But........ you were cycling where you shouldn't have been, on the pavement, and you hit him.

Had he hit you, and you were on the pavement, pavement or not, he would have been at fault.
.

That's why a solicitor is vital. As I've previously said who owns the pavement/path? Is it the council, does he own that part of land, does he have legal access to cross a pavement onto the road? Just because he parks his car in a driveway (I assume) doesn't mean he has legal access to cross a public footpath in a motor vehicle!

Then it comes down to is he insured to drive on pavements (from driveway to road)? If the accident is on a pavement but the car is insured only for the road, where does that leave his claim? It would be great if by putting this claim in, he was prevented from driving on the pavement to his driveway :twisted:

I still say legal advice, anything other then that is folly.

MattC59

thistle (MBNW) wrote:

You've also sustained damage to your vehicle so you could counterclaim for this.

Unless you're deemed to be at fault, which is likely if his claim is successful.

Dunkindiver

Cheers for all the advice

I think my line of defence is that as he drove away before WE were able to ascertain what damage I had caused, how do I know what was existing and what had I caused, there is no way of knowing!

Weejie54

" If the accident is on a pavement but the car is insured only for the road, where does that leave his claim? "

Absolutely nowhere unless it is in a courtroom. This is not one insurance company against another. It is an insurance company trying to get someone to pay up who doesn't have to.
Only a judge can order payment.
All this talk of "who's in the right or wrong" is subjective. No charges were brought and if the other party has no witnesses it is a very weak case.
I doubt if it would ever reach a court but you need to talk with a lawyer.

Scrumple

hide

dilemna

Write to his insurers with an estimate for the cost of repairs to your bike and also that you shall be claiming for personal injuries as result of his failing to keep a proper look out whilst exiting the driveway in his car. You could also point out that he drove away with out getting out of his vehicle to see if you were alright, leaving you sprawled on the pavement, and by driving away, failed to provide you with his insurance details, you, being some one who was lawfully entitled to request them being injured. I suspect that neck spasm is very painful and your son is suffeing panic attacks every time he sees similar such cars and drivers. The fact that he drove away did not give you opportunity to inspect any damage to his vehicle that YOU caused and likewise he to see the damage he had done to your bike and your injuries.

I would contact cycling solicitors instructing them to counter claim for repairs to your bike and some injuires, PSLA and loss of use of your bike. That should focus their minds.

Driver should have at least got out to see if you were alright as technically it's a hit and run offence. I would have called the police.

Buckled_Rims

Dunkindiver wrote:

Cheers for all the advice

I think my line of defence is that as he drove away before WE were able to ascertain what damage I had caused, how do I know what was existing and what had I caused, there is no way of knowing!

Well good luck if you try it yourself. Insurance and Fleet management will eat you alive if you take the case on yourself. These guys/gals are professionals and ruthless, many are on bonuses. They have car service records to back up damage claims. They do this everyday and will tie you in knots as soon as they realise you aren't going through legal department.

My final say on the matter.

Hawmaw

I think you jumped the gun by reporting it to the police. That's the only way his insurers got your details. If you hadn't reported the bump then he would have had no idea who you were.
You should have given him a mouthfull and let him go on his way.

awallace

I dont understnad civil law but if he does claim against you and he is "awarded" a payment i beleive there is no legal power to make you pay. Someone may correct me but i am sure if someone is sued in the small claims court they cant be forced to pay for the damage.

Are small claims and insurance claims similar? Likewise what if the crash had caused £2,000,000 pounds of damage? How would you pay? therefore £500 or £2,000,000 is irelavant isnt it if you cant or dont pay? hmmmmm.........

Also, if he is claiming for 50% of the damage he must be impplying he is 50% at fault!

term1te

You say it was a fleet car, do you know who his employers are? If you can find someone senior in the organisation, write to them asking why one of their employees in a company car left the scene of an accident involving a child without leaving any insurance details having used abusive and threatening language. And is now trying to claim extortionate damages from you.

My wife was involved in an accident in a car park where a guy in a company car reversed out of a parking space into her car. He was insistent it was her fault and was quite abusive. I found the company on the internet, wrote to the contact email and received a full apology and their insurance details within a day from one of the directors.

Lillywhite

Are their any witnesses to this incident? If not, it's your word against the driver as to the exact facts of this collision. Since he was leaving his driveway, crossing a pavement he has a duty of care, in the first instance, to ensure that anyone on the pavement has priority. What if this had been a little old lady pushing a shopping trolley or someone on a mobility scooter?

However, you hadn't his details and he didn't have yours so you were, in hindsight, foolish to report it to the police since you weren't injured. In addition you shouldn't have been cycling on a pavement or pulling your young son on a trolley so lesson learnt there.

Tell the fleet management company to get stuffed.

step-hent

awallace - whilst it can be difficult to enforce a judgment from a small claims court, it is not impossible. failure to pay would give the claimant the right to sue for the debt, which could result in a CCJ and enforcement action by bailiffs. not pretty.

to the OP - it seems to me that by claiming 50% of the damage he is accepting that he was contributorily negligent (i.e. it was only half your fault, and half his). thus, you should be arguing that you also suffered damage, at least 50% of which should be paid for by him. if you can show the level of damage is close to his, you end up pretty much all square. you can do this two ways - by reducing what he can claim for (showing the value to be inflated etc) and increasing what you can claim for (getting bills for new wheel, repairing scratches). You can also claim that, as you say, it is difficult to ascertain what damage was done by you and what may have already been there or been caused later on, since he didnt stop to discuss it.

you should definitely head for the Citizen's Advice Bureau for some free advice - they'll have a legal clinic and a lawyer will be able to give you some help corresponding with the insurer and putting your side.

good luck with it - if you don't let them push you around, they are unlikely to pursue it for too long, as the £550 they are claiming would be dwarfed by the admin time and legal costs (which they cant claim from you in a small claims court, by the way).

squired

I once had an accident where there were no witnesses (a van overtook me and turned left into a driveway without even indicating, taking me out). I went to small claims court and the driver of the van that had taken me out lied about everything (his account bore no similarity to what actually happened). As it was his word against mine and there were no witnesses, no money was awarded. With no witnesses in your case, can any money be awarded? Or, did you have to give a description of the accident when you reported it to the police?

antfly

Just ignore it and it will probably go away. Don`t see a solicitor, they cost money and you don`t need one yet.

jgsi

Not to un nerve the OP even further... but is it now too late to 'ignore'?
What if the 'debt' gets sold onto a collection agency who then start to add in further admin charges and soon talking about a lot more momney 'owed'....?

have I got that all wrong? Hope I have.

I'd be seeking out advice..I have had my own issues with BC but at least you do get 3rd party cover without too much ado

antfly

He doesn`t have a debt, they just sent him a bill. Never give a sucker an even break is their philosophy.

petejuk

Remember, you've been sent a bill. There is no legally binding right for them to collect it from you. Its them trying it on to see if they can scare you into paying. If you are uneasy about ignoring it, then seek legal advice.

mcj78

Term1te wrote:

You say it was a fleet car, do you know who his employers are? If you can find someone senior in the organisation, write to them asking why one of their employees in a company car left the scene of an accident involving a child without leaving any insurance details having used abusive and threatening language. And is now trying to claim extortionate damages from you.

Lillywhite wrote:

Are their any witnesses to this incident? If not, it's your word against the driver as to the exact facts of this collision. Since he was leaving his driveway, crossing a pavement he has a duty of care, in the first instance, to ensure that anyone on the pavement has priority. What if this had been a little old lady pushing a shopping trolley or someone on a mobility scooter?

Both valid points in aid of your defence, yes you were on the pavement - but you could argue that it's unsafe to tow a child on a bike on the road at 5mph during rush hour & in addition to that he effectively knocked down 2 persons (1 a child) driving across a pavement without either reporting it to the police or even stopping to exchange details. I'd contact your local citizen's advice as already suggested & send a letter to the company director highlighting the fact one of thier employees knocked down 2 people whilst driving one of their cars on a pavement & didn't stop... and you've since developed a bad back/neck that's been getting progressively worse since that day... and as there's no witnesses, i'd be saying he shot out of nowhere like a madman giving me no time to stop, that you wanted to involve the police but then he threatened you whith physical violence & was stinking of alcohol.

Good luck !

Pross

I wouldn't get involved in a counter claim or anything. I would just say when he left the scene there was no damage to his car. He can't prove any subsequent damage resulted from your collision. As soon as you get into a counter claim you're in danger of admitting things. Just stick to the line there was no damage to the car and he drove away despite you requesting he stop until the police could be called. I don't see how he can have a leg to stand on, if he did he'd be chasing the whole amount.