Tomorrow's Wall Street Journal
Comments
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Yes you posted that before but doesn't stop it being pointless speculation. I think it is fairly well agreed that people died of EPO in the late 80s and early 90s, when it was new and not fully understood. But to start listing names of riders who have died of heart attacks since 2000 only proves one thing, i.e. they are dead.
If anything all the above proves is that Ferrari was right, EPO isn't that big a deal if used correctly.0 -
eh wrote:If anything all the above proves is that Ferrari was right, EPO isn't that big a deal if used correctly.
How do you come to this conclusion?0 -
Not so. EPO use for doping can involve larger doses than the medicine was ever invented for. Under normal use, the drug comes with special health warnings as clinical trials show it significantly increases your chances of cancer. It's not prescribed to people who are a little bit anaemic, it's only given to people on big chemotheraphy treatments, where the risk of not using EPO is greater than the risk of using it.eh wrote:If anything all the above proves is that Ferrari was right, EPO isn't that big a deal if used correctly.
The main form of EPO, and others too, is one of the rare medicines to come with a "black box" warning from the US FDA, like a cigarette packet the packaging must warn of the dangers. Something tells me riders aren't informed about this risk.0 -
Because despite the huge amounts of athletes in all sports who have taken EPO over the years we don't see them dropping dead all the time. The only people that ever die from this stuff are people who don't know what they are doing, which is no different from many drugs e.g. Asprin.
NB: I'm not saying EPO doesn't have an huge effect on performance, that is well proven.0 -
Yes, we have one large study group. But cancer incidence is not like being struck by lightening, it is something that takes time, it's about subtle probabilities. Clearly the certainty of a contract, of better performance is something appealing to Ferrari and his clients.eh wrote:Because despite the huge amounts of athletes in all sports who have taken EPO over the years we don't see them dropping dead all the time.
Based on the research, we can expect more riders who abused EPO to get cancer than riders who did not, but it's to say we'll "see them dropping dead all the time", it's a bit more subtle
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Kleber yep understand what you are saying, and despite my last post being below your first one, I hadn't seen it when I commented. I was primarily commenting on the above post about riders suffering from sudden heart attacks. And I believe it was in this context that Ferrari was talking when he said his infamous OJ comment. Long term health problems are a different matter, and will be further complicated by use of other products like HGH, steriods etc.
I suspect many riders would still being willing to risk it, even if they are told about the cancer increase. Fignon pretty much said he accepted the risk, and plenty of people do highly paid but risky jobs.0 -
eh wrote:Because despite the huge amounts of athletes in all sports who have taken EPO over the years we don't see them dropping dead all the time. The only people that ever die from this stuff are people who don't know what they are doing, which is no different from many drugs e.g. Asprin.
+1.......I once read that every drug out there has side effects, be they good or bad, they all have them. If you use / misuse some of these you may leave yourself open to problems. I would think that ANY athelete using performance enhancing drugs is aware of this. All of them choose to ignore this. I guess I don't see it as a problem for the rest of us. They will do what they will.0 -
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Apparently there wasn't one0
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Yeah.
Don't you just love all the exciting build up to the Tour de France. :roll:"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Except that's the entire basis for anti-doping rules, they are there to protect an athlete's health
Possibly originally this was true after Dr Dumas started getting worried about riders health and then Simpson died, but this is no longer the real reason. Now it is because we have this corinthian idea (well victorian england in truth) that sport has rules, some of which are about doping because it is considered cheating.
If the governing bodies really cared about the health of the athletes then a lot of current practises would be monitored or banned. Conversley there are performance enhancing drugs that could be taken safely, but are banned.0 -
Keep hoping. It's like waiting for the plane out of Casablanca: http://online.wsj.com/search/term.html? ... &mod=DNH_S0
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eh wrote:Except that's the entire basis for anti-doping rules, they are there to protect an athlete's health
Possibly originally this was true after Dr Dumas started getting worried about riders health and then Simpson died, but this is no longer the real reason. Now it is because we have this corinthian idea (well victorian england in truth) that sport has rules, some of which are about doping because it is considered cheating.
If the governing bodies really cared about the health of the athletes then a lot of current practises would be monitored or banned. Conversley there are performance enhancing drugs that could be taken safely, but are banned.
+1... well put0 -
A valid point but the problem with this approach is one of dosage, athletes might opt for the "more is better" approach and testing for "overdosing" is impractical, which goes some way to explaining why this doesn't happen.eh wrote:Conversley there are performance enhancing drugs that could be taken safely, but are banned.0 -
Kléber wrote:
Except that's the entire basis for anti-doping rules, they are there to protect an athlete's healthdennisn wrote:I guess I don't see it as a problem for the rest of us. They will do what they will. Maybe you need to sit down for a beer with Dick Pound, Dennis?
I don't buy the protect thing one bit(see "eh" post above). It's all about some people wanting things to be squeaky clean and pure as the driven snow. Never gonna happen
with all that money involved. People have cheated at just about anything that there is a chance of WINNING. Whether that win brings you money or fame or an ego boost or whatever, someone will figure out a way to get an edge, be it drugs, slight of hand, a gun, threats, you name it.
As for the beer with ol' Dick. I can drink beer with anyone, as long as they don't start
preaching politics, cars, or religion.0 -
http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stori ... ily30.html
Cyclist Lance Armstrong's philanthropic product line— made famous by the iconic, yellow Livestrong bracelets — will hit stores outside of the U.S., U.K., France and Canada Thursday.
Nike Inc., which creates and sells the apparel, shoes and accessories, announced the going-global plan in January. As part of the deal, Nike shifted from donating all proceeds to the Livestrong foundation to guaranteeing a flat-rate gift.dennisn wrote:Kléber wrote:
Except that's the entire basis for anti-doping rules, they are there to protect an athlete's healthdennisn wrote:I guess I don't see it as a problem for the rest of us. They will do what they will. Maybe you need to sit down for a beer with Dick Pound, Dennis?
I don't buy the protect thing one bit(see "eh" post above). It's all about some people wanting things to be squeaky clean and pure as the driven snow. Never gonna happen
with all that money involved. People have cheated at just about anything that there is a chance of WINNING. Whether that win brings you money or fame or an ego boost or whatever, someone will figure out a way to get an edge, be it drugs, slight of hand, a gun, threats, you name it.
As for the beer with ol' Dick. I can drink beer with anyone, as long as they don't start
preaching politics, cars, or religion.0 -
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unless the who team has suddenly failed a test then I can't see them getting thrown out a few days before the race0
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True - but who'd've thunk that Basso and Ullrich would have been chucked out the day before?
All this gossip and rumour - now I understand how Perez Hilton feels.0 -
Nike are also offering a service whereby you can send in a message of hope or inspiration and they will have a machine write it in yellow chalk on the road somewhere along the Tour route and let you know by email the GPS coordinates of where they have written your text. They hope to receive, then write 100,000 texts.whiteboytrash wrote:http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2010/06/28/daily30.html
Cyclist Lance Armstrong's philanthropic product line— made famous by the iconic, yellow Livestrong bracelets — will hit stores outside of the U.S., U.K., France and Canada Thursday.
I don’t like it, chalk messages by an organisation as a sales gimmick; chalking on the road is for the enthusiastic fan, not for messages of hope. The idea reminds me of the fairy tale The Wolf and the 7 Little Goats, in which the wolf eats chalk in order to fake the tone of his voice and fool the little goats.
The machine is fed your text via computer so the driver of the machine never reads it, and the style will always be the same, so the chalking on the road is very impersonal. Fortunately, TV will probably never pick it up, and hopefully it will be in the middle of nowhere, well away from roadside fans, especially the holy messages of hope or inspiration, which I’m sure some will be.
Although on the other hand, I suppose there is the odd appropriate one in the psalms … “I lift up my eyes to the hills, where does my help come from?”0 -
Probably all of 5 cents. Standard business practice - first create the opportunity to fleece the market, then go in for the kill...whiteboytrash wrote:http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2010/06/28/daily30.html
Cyclist Lance Armstrong's philanthropic product line— made famous by the iconic, yellow Livestrong bracelets — will hit stores outside of the U.S., U.K., France and Canada Thursday.
Nike Inc., which creates and sells the apparel, shoes and accessories, announced the going-global plan in January. As part of the deal, Nike shifted from donating all proceeds to the Livestrong foundation to guaranteeing a flat-rate gift.0 -
Not quite true mate.Kléber wrote:Not so. EPO use for doping can involve larger doses than the medicine was ever invented for. Under normal use, the drug comes with special health warnings as clinical trials show it significantly increases your chances of cancer. It's not prescribed to people who are a little bit anaemic, it's only given to people on big chemotheraphy treatments, where the risk of not using EPO is greater than the risk of using it.
Firstly, rhEPO was originally developed to treat Renal Anaemia, patients with kidney failure don't produce enough to maintain their haemaglobin levels, so historically were treated with blood transfusions, so used to suffer from Iron overload, also the potential for developing blood-born infections.
It can be used for any normochromic, normocytic anaemia, so has been used post-surgery, in anaemia of prematurity in neonates and multiple other indications.
It's been many years since I sold the stuff, so I can't remember the exact dosing regimes, but it's not the dose that's the issue, it's bunging you Hb up to super-physiological levels.Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.0 -
We're both right, no? Yes it was for kidney failure cases, and stil is, but it soon became used to bolster chemo patients. It's for this that it's got the health warnings.
It has the FDA warning for normal dosages, so the dosages needed to get ketchup blood during a whole season are bigger and potentially riskier.0 -
knedlicky wrote:
Nike are also offering a service whereby you can send in a message of hope or inspiration and they will have a machine write it in yellow chalk on the road somewhere along the Tour route and let you know by email the GPS coordinates of where they have written your text. They hope to receive, then write 100,000 texts.whiteboytrash wrote:http://www.bizjournals.com/austin/stories/2010/06/28/daily30.html
Cyclist Lance Armstrong's philanthropic product line— made famous by the iconic, yellow Livestrong bracelets — will hit stores outside of the U.S., U.K., France and Canada Thursday.
I don’t like it, chalk messages by an organisation as a sales gimmick; chalking on the road is for the enthusiastic fan, not for messages of hope. The idea reminds me of the fairy tale The Wolf and the 7 Little Goats, in which the wolf eats chalk in order to fake the tone of his voice and fool the little goats.
The machine is fed your text via computer so the driver of the machine never reads it, and the style will always be the same, so the chalking on the road is very impersonal. Fortunately, TV will probably never pick it up, and hopefully it will be in the middle of nowhere, well away from roadside fans, especially the holy messages of hope or inspiration, which I’m sure some will be.
Although on the other hand, I suppose there is the odd appropriate one in the psalms … “I lift up my eyes to the hills, where does my help come from?”
I don't see anyone twisting your arm to make you do this, so what's the problem?? Let the idiots who feel they MUST do something weird like this, for whatever reason, have their fun. It's only chalk.0 -
Well the health of that Texan 38 year old is looking good.Kléber wrote:Yes it was for kidney failure cases, and stil is, but it soon became used to bolster chemo patients. It's for this that it's got the health warnings.
He must have it down to a fine Art. :roll:Organiser, National Championship 50 mile Time Trial 19720 -
Looks like the wait may soon be over for all of you scandal fans (a day later than is traditional for the Tour, but still...)
http://yfrog.com/izxqpvjTwitter: @RichN950 -
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Can't see it being anything earth shattering on the basis of that headline / leader - possibly only an interview with Landis / first hand rehash of the content of his original emails.0
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andylav wrote:Can't see it being anything earth shattering on the basis of that headline / leader - possibly only an interview with Landis / first hand rehash of the content of his original emails.
Armstrong filed an injunction in the last hour to prevent publication.
Make of that what you will.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
