30 Gears, Evolution for the sake of it?
mickedwards61
Posts: 175
I, like everyone I should imagine, have read about the latest and greatest in gear shifting, and I am being informed that 3 x 10 is much better/more efficient than the current 3 x 9 setup sported by most mountain bikes for various reasons.
However, it seems to me that this is just another incarnation of the "more is better" cliche, and will most riders really notice the difference out there on the trails? I understand the arguments of slicker shifting and greater range, but do many riders really need or indeed, use the whole range of gears currently available to them on a 3 x 9 setup?
Personally, it seems like this is evolution for the sake of it, and not exactly out of the box thinking from the manufacturers. The 2 x 10 setup I have seen touted about is the kind of thinking I like to see, granted it's not exactly genius stuff, as many riders do already use a 2 x 9 setup, but it shows a different approach to gearing and one I can see benefits of.
Do you think you will shift (excuse the pun!) to a 3 x 10 setup? Or will you give 2 x 10 a go? Or is this an irrelevant question as the manufacturers hang whatever they like on their bikes?
However, it seems to me that this is just another incarnation of the "more is better" cliche, and will most riders really notice the difference out there on the trails? I understand the arguments of slicker shifting and greater range, but do many riders really need or indeed, use the whole range of gears currently available to them on a 3 x 9 setup?
Personally, it seems like this is evolution for the sake of it, and not exactly out of the box thinking from the manufacturers. The 2 x 10 setup I have seen touted about is the kind of thinking I like to see, granted it's not exactly genius stuff, as many riders do already use a 2 x 9 setup, but it shows a different approach to gearing and one I can see benefits of.
Do you think you will shift (excuse the pun!) to a 3 x 10 setup? Or will you give 2 x 10 a go? Or is this an irrelevant question as the manufacturers hang whatever they like on their bikes?
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Shimano and SRAM both have slightly different reasoning to why they have done it. Just have to see if that suits you, or if you are fine with what yiu have.
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Not that XX really delivers what it claims either- the reason being that every single advantage they claim (the bigger cassette, the 3:2 ratio thing on the front, the clever cassette) could be done in 2x9 if they'd just allow us the parts, rather than embargoing it for everything but their new standard.
I keep saying the same thing though, give us an XT or 990 11-36 cassette, then **** off with your progress, and let us get most of the benefit without replacing every part on the damn bike. Give the XC racers what they want, sure, but stop telling us that's what we want too.
IMO
I feel quite strongly about this.
How is 2x 9/10 progress?
Still need a mech, shifter and cable.
1 x something saves weight.
2 x 9/10 only saves the weight of the large ring - you might even sub it for a bash guard - or have a little more ground clearence
The only progress is as SS says a 36t middle.
36 at the rear means you can go a couple of teeth bigger on the granny but not much else.
with lighter weight drive trains 12 - 36 would prob be better with 26/36/44
Having 3 x something makes your bike more rounded for multiple uses.... race weight excluded.
Having a 36-36 in itself means a very good range of ratios for most situations reducing what everyone would call recovery shifts
Not to mention chain line......
Yes. That's the progress :? A step away from road-inspired gearing without the sacrifice of 1x9. Better chain tension as well of course, and you can set up the chainline to suit the 2 chainrings you have if you're so inclined though most people don't bother of course. (1x9 fans seem to obsess on chainline but there's no reason you can't get the exact same chainline on the middle ring with 2x9, and still have the option of the granny ring. The granny ring's chainline will be worse on the higher end of its ratios, which you won't be using, so it's an irrelevance.)
It's possible to get a very good weight saving- 2x9 on SLX without a bash gets very close to the weight of an XTR triple. Or, you can choose to add a bash instead of getting the weight loss, if you feel that's of benefit. For a lot of people it's just fashion but for others it's an upgrade.
36 at the rear is about widening out the band of gearing on each ring, not neccesarily about changing the gearing. As you say it's not a huge difference but it'll keep you in the 36 for longer which means less front end shifts. But, you're right that it does give more options. 24/38 if you're so inclined, or 24/36 with the 3:2 ratio that SRAM get so excited about with XX but don't seem interested in doing with 9 speed.
1x9 is all well and good but it's not very appropriate for many riders. 2x9 with 22/36 keeps almost all of the working range and as you correctly point out reduces weight and increases ground clearance. So it's benefit with minimal loss.
So basically, every single point of "progress" that 2x10 can give is matched by 2x9, with just fractionally wider ratio gaps, but without the need to replace so many existing parts.
Using your reason - the only thing I'm getting is ground clearence but am losing the ability to go as fast as I want or could with a 44-11.
the new really wide ratio cassettes do tempt me to a single front ring though!
Do they?
no middle on 2x9 - odd numbers...
Yeah, but you can optimise the middle ring as it's where you'll be doing most of your riding and just make the granny suitable for the low end of the cassette. Think single ring with bailout. That would appeal to me a great deal if I could find some way to make it work nicely without a front mech and shifter.
You're aware that you only lose the absolute top 2 gears, right? 36-11 will get you down a hill plenty fast, assuming you can spin a decent speed.
You know exactly what I mean.
Roadies have progressed as you say. We've been stuck in a rut. They looked at triples and said "This is daft" but still the huge majority of mountain bikes come with them.
Thing is though, I actually use the full range of gears on the (mtb) triple- particularly winching up a steep hill at the end of a 50 miler or more, or absolutely caning it down something fast and wide. I could probably do without the extremes, I just don't see that dropping a ring at the front gains me anything significant in return. Nor does the extra cog at the back really.
I'm satisfied that they're both incremental evolution and that I can upgrade as I need until hub gears become a proper force to be reckoned with!
The ground clearance is the biggest advantage IMO. If you don't ride anywhere that mullers chainrings then that's much less of a bonus of course but if you do, it soon becomes obvious what a big advantage it is- having a chainring grab a rock step is really unnerving, and can turn a marginal step into a crash. The weight loss etc can be beneficial too of course but it's hardly huge. The improved chain tension is nice too though.
Some people wax lyrical about shorter mech cages, I can't remember which of my bikes has the short cage but I certainly can't tell any difference
But anyway, what I'm banging on about here... 3x10 still gives a reduced top end, it doesn't give a weight saving, it gives a fractional ground clearance improvement... What does it do that 3x9 couldn't do, or 2x9? And likewise XX.
I've just done the calulation... Yes it is just the top 2....but they offer upto 30% more gear that's a lot and needed sometimes....
You also have 6ish gears above that match, without changing ring, what a 36 gives.... useful for long twisty DHs
swan - agree with what you've just said, you too north wind just different advantages to each, matter to us more.
I love my 2x9 setup and I have never run out of gears with my 34 tooth ring, just need to learn to keep a high cadence is all
And like Northwind says, the ground clearance can be a big advantage. My bash has so many lumps and scrapes and gouges I hate to think about how many rings I would have been through, never mind the amout of times I would have destroyed my leg on them.
Do you see DH bikes going around with big 44 tooth rings? I wonder why
You want higher gears on the road, buy a new bike
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I was wondering what size they were mostly using at the world cup but couldn't find anything. Saint does go up to 42 IIRC.
I don't want 2 bikes, I want a bike that can do most things well.
Sell some more bikes because it's new and shiny?
The other point I would make is while it's a small improvement (which I would still say both are), so are most improvements to practically anything, especially bikes. Discrete leaps are few and far between- you only see the real change over a few steps. That's why I'll be upgrading to 10 speed when kit wears out and 9 speed has stopped being the main option, but won't be shelling out for any new kit for the sake of it.
Interestingly, can anyone think of any changes that they would really call revolutionary rather than evolutionary? It doesn't necessarily have to be successful...
The trails I do, a bike with a triple wouldn't do well though so you obviously have plenty of smooth trails around you with no rock steps or big roots
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I hear that most DH racers, especially at Inners, use a 36 or 38 tooth ring so there proves our point
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Do you mean when people were just racing down a fire road
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We aren't all blessed (at least in mountain biking terms
That said, I've never noticed ring bashes anywhere in particular, whether the fields round loughborough or the peak district. Not really a problem for me!
Thats true
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No point in 2x9 for me, let alone 3x9. No more front mech.
It is pretty close though
Spent a bit of time there last summer with my aunt and cousins but couldn't do any of the proper trails since my leg was only 3 weeks out of the cast and I had only just started doing some blue stuff again
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