Weird accident........

rolf_f

I shouldn't be here right now. I should be doing an Evans Sportive on the NYMoors.

Yesterday I decided to replace the rear brake cable on my Dawes as it had got a bit sticky. Having done this I decided to have another fettle of the gears which are annoying me a bit. As the weather forecast wasn't good, I was planning on using the Dawes on the ride (poor old Look still only been out once but I wasn't going to risk it on a downhill run of Rosedale Chimney bank in the rain).

Anyway, I thought I'd better see if my fettling had improved things so I went for a quick run up the hill outside mine to check how the gear shifts behaved on climbs. The result wasn't brilliant but OK so I turned the bike down to roll back to my house.

Not really sure what happened next but it involved me going over the handlebars at low speed (probably less than 5 mph). I might have been clipping in and got close to the curb but I really don't know how I went over – the physics seem pretty unlikely. I ended up on the floor, still clipped in. A car that had seen it stopped to ask if I was OK so of course I said I was (I wasn't quite) and he went on. I then tried to pick the bike up and walk back to the house and immediately had to sit down again. My left arm felt weird and clicky at the elbow. After a bit I got up and started walking again and then had to sit down again (this is probably more to do with how my heart valves react to stress than a bonk on the head – I’m fine there though ironically I hadn’t bothered with my lid for what was meant to be a two minute ride).

After a bit more I got up again and decided that I didn’t fancy walking back to my house so I got on the bike, clipped in one side and rolled down the hill. As I got to my house, I rolled up onto the pavement and realised I wasn’t sure how to dismount. My left arm was odd which made me not want to get off on that side – my right foot was clipped in. Don’t know what happened next but I can guess as the next thing I was aware of was that I was on the floor again. Luckily, I had fallen over when the bike was far enough away from the garden wall for my head not to hit it.

Anyway, no major incidents followed immediately. Got the bike in (no damage aside from a scuffed saddle) but my arm was still weird – mainly when I try to straighten it.

I went to bed, took some aspirin and hoped I’d be better the following day. In the morning, things felt pretty much the same but I got up, went for a pee and the next thing is I found myself looking at the plasterwork in the loo close up with the toilet lid resting on my arm the lower half of which was in the toilet itself!

At that point I wrote the sportive off! I think I’m OK now. I expect the falling over thing is done so it is just down to my arm sorting itself out. There’s probably a moral in here somewhere but I’m not sure where!

lae

Sounds like you've lost your balance. Maybe you've got an ear infection or you're otherwise sick.

Went to bed one morning, woke up the next day with my head spinning wildly. I got vertigo if I moved my head even very slightly. Tried to get up to go and pee, made it about 3 feet out of bed, had to crawl the rest of the way. It went away in two days though, with some antibiotics.

I would still randomly fall over for about a month afterwards though.

lost_in_thought

Strewth! Scary stuff... As Frink says, could be labyrinthitis - I've had it before a couple of times, and it really does make you fall over, but it has never made me black out.

See a doctor, pronto!

rolf_f

It's not a balance thing - the falling over is caused by a heart condition - dodgy wiring that causes a short circuit in the valve operation so my heart rate goes bonkers. Doesn't happen very much but physical stress, shock etc can trigger it (as can medical procedures - had a very minor op at the local medical centre and I couldn't get out of bed for some hours - they don't do overnights so they were getting to the point of wanting to throw me out :roll: !).

Basically, the shock made my heart go off on one - I really should have known better than to have got back on the bike in the first place (and, tbh, I did know better) but I just wanted to get home knowing that it was literally less than a minute away. The morning thing was a bit less expected but not entirely unlikely. It's really only my arm that I need to worry about but I think that is trying to repair itself.

I wish I knew what happened though if only to make sure it doesn't happen again. The only thing that would make sense is if I turned the wheel into the curb when clipping in - but actually I shouldn't even have been clipping in as I was just turning round to go back down the hill. I can remember going over, I can't really remember landing and I can't remember the moment before going over.

greg66_tri_v2.0

GO TO THE DOCTOR. NOW.

There seem to be two things here. First, the blackouts. Not (it seems) preceded by dizziness. I'd guess that the first one caused the bike crash, rather than the other wayround. So you're up to three now in a short period of time. I've occasionally passed out through low blood pressure - always after getting up from a prone position and always preceded by dizziness and a narrowing of my field of vision. Never without warning. I'd get that looked and, and recount *everything* you can recall about the circs of each incident, and what you can remember about it just before keeling over.

Second, the elbow. You could have chipped a bone. X-ray, methinks.

As my mother would now observe: you see? Sportives *are* dangerous.

greg66_tri_v2.0

Ah. So there's an underlying problem.

Isn't it most likely that you passed out whilst riding? From then on it would only have been a matter of time before you kit something (a kerb) or let the bars flip to 90 degrees, either of which would have put you over the top.

rolf_f

The PSVT (which is what the condition is) doesn't hit me without warning. I've had it since I was a teenager though it was only diagnosed in the last 10 years or so; I'm pretty comfortable with it and have chosen not to have it operated on. Actually blacking out never happens just like that. Even the dizziness gives me a lot of warning before it comes on in any significant way. Driving or cycling never worries me in that context. I wouldn't want to be flying a plane solo though (and I'm sure I wouldn't be allowed to unless I had the condition fixed which isn't really worth it).

I'll stay in for now and drink coffee and eat Eccles cakes! I think things are improving and I can't abide queues especially ones in hospitals filled with hungover invalids from Saturday night. If things feel off still tomorrow, I'll bob over to the Infirmary from work.

jonginge

Doesn't sound good, Rolf, and more than a little bit scary.

GO TO THE DOCTOR. NOW.

+many. Better to be safe than sorry. Can you get that underlying heart condition seen to?

Chin up and think of Contador's recovery from cerebral cavernoma. He's not a bad cyclist

lost_in_thought

Greg66 wrote:

Isn't it most likely that you passed out whilst riding? From then on it would only have been a matter of time before you kit something (a kerb) or let the bars flip to 90 degrees, either of which would have put you over the top.

Yeah, that was my thinking too, especially seeing as you can't remember what happened.

snailracer

Do you have any bumps on your head? If you do, some of your accidents might be due to head trauma and not just your condition. Definitely see your doctor, who will have some amusing ways to check your brain.

nicklouse

reminds me of a mate who thought he would pop around the block on his newly upgraded and service bike.

woke up in hospital 3 days later. the ride went on longer than he planed and he passed out at slow speed and knocked himself out as he had also forgotten his lid that he norammly used.

sorry Doctor time.

Aguila

Speaking as a doctor you do need to go to A&E, the triage nurse will make sure you dont wait too long with that story.

It could be that you had a series of SVTs leading to blackouts but in the context of possible head injury and repeated loss of conciousness over more than 24 hrs that you describe I'd say you need a CT scan of your head and a period of observation.

At the very least you should not be on your own, if your not sure phone NHS direct who I'm sure will tell you to go to hospital. The doctors there will be delighted to see someone who actually has justification for attending.

tailwindhome

Speaking as an accountant you need to listen to Aguila

fungus_the_muffin_man

Does your valve problems make you prone to blood clots similar to someone who has AF? You could even have had a TIA. I'm with the doc on this one you need to go and get this looked at in more detail and not just pass it off as "Oh its just my heart it happens some times"

amnezia

DOCTOR, NOW

kelsen

Speaking as someone who's paid shitloads of money to accountants, you need to listen to TailWindHome

davis

Speaking as someone who once met a guy who'd just paid an accountant, you should probably take kelsen's advice.

Cafewanda

So Rolf F what did the doctor say?

shouldbeinbed

my oldest friend is an accountant - get to the Doctor

a colleague of mine has a similar thing with his heart going berzerk and blood pressure dropping through the floor all of a sudden, he was similarly blase about it, right up to the point where they had to revive him in the ambulance one time when he wasn't for doing his usual waking up wondering why we were all fussing round him for.


& elbows shouldn't click.

rolf_f

OK folks, there seems to be a marginal majority in favour of me going to the docs so I will do it after I have finished my cup of tea. Infirmary is just up the road.

Obviously, I did come in to work on the bike though I did take the MTB with softy squashy tyres and front suspension. Just as well I did as West Leeds was completely gridlocked due to an 'incident' on the Stanningley Bypass. I will report back later!

I have found a slight bruise on the noggin behind my ear - missed it before as it doesn't feel at all unless touched.

Gussio

Rolf F wrote:

OK folks, there seems to be a marginal majority in favour of me going to the docs so I will do it after I have finished my cup of tea. Infirmary is just up the road.

Obviously, I did come in to work on the bike though I did take the MTB with softy squashy tyres and front suspension. Just as well I did as West Leeds was completely gridlocked due to an 'incident' on the Stanningley Bypass. I will report back later!

I have found a slight bruise on the noggin behind my ear - missed it before as it doesn't feel at all unless touched.

Good call. Nasty things bumps on the head. I read Coppi's biography earlier in the year and was saddened by the story of his brother dying after an innocuous crash during a race (that he went on to finish, I think). Not saying that this will happen to you :shock: but better to be safe than sorry....!

rjsterry

Rolf F wrote:

I have found a slight bruise on the noggin behind my ear - missed it before as it doesn't feel at all unless touched.

Just because it doesn't hurt, doesn't mean you haven't damaged it. Once went to an exhibition on the subject of pain at the Royal College of Physicians (yes, odd, I know). In it there were two examples, one of which was a builder, who had been hit on the head by a falling object. Hard hat took most of the impact, so just went to A&E to get the nasty graze patched up, and on he went. Two weeks later, he collapsed with some kind of seizure, was rushed into hospital, where a scan revealed a large nail stuck in his skull (the falling object was a nail gun, which had fired on impact). You might have bashed your head more than you think when you went down the first time.

The other BTW was also a builder, who had some how got a nail through his foot (despite steel toe caps). Attempts to remove the nail were met with screams of apparent agony, so after trying various things, they eventually anaesthetised him, and cut away the boot to reveal that the nail had actually passed between his toes, without even a scratch - he had convinced himself that the nail was through his foot to an extraordinary extent.

Bikerbaboon

Rolf F wrote:

Obviously, I did come in to work on the bike though I did take the MTB with softy squashy tyres and front suspension. Just as well I did as West Leeds was completely gridlocked due to an 'incident' on the Stanningley Bypass. I will report back later!

working just up passed that Incident I have been told that its a body found near the foot over pass.... Looks like the north are doing well to keep numbers down.

rolf_f

Went to Leeds Infirmary. Queued to get let in, queued to inform nurse what problem was (gave up on the head thing as that would have meant two further sets of queues and she didn't reckon anything was likely wrong there....).

Queued again for another nurse to check over what needed to be X rayed. Queued again to get X rayed. Waited to pick up X ray notes. Queued again to get verdict. After two and a half hours told that elbow is just basically bruised and swollen and given useful advice on how to sort it out as soon as possible.

So, a bit of a pain but worth the visit and thanks to all above for making me bother!! The boredom was at least relieved by a chat with a nice cute student with nice legs who fell off a rock last week and hurt her foot. That turned out to be properly broken!

Bikerbaboon wrote:

working just up passed that Incident I have been told that its a body found near the foot over pass.... Looks like the north are doing well to keep numbers down.

Body apparently on the foot bridge so not a suicide.....

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/n ... 6344510.jp

sarajoy

Rolf F wrote:

(gave up on the head thing as that would have meant two further sets of queues and she didn't reckon anything was likely wrong there....)

:S Worth a look though. Maybe go to your GP and get a referral to a consultant instead. Don't just brush it off, please...

Aguila

Rolf F wrote:

Went to Leeds Infirmary. Queued to get let in, queued to inform nurse what problem was (gave up on the head thing as that would have meant two further sets of queues and she didn't reckon anything was likely wrong there....).

Queued again for another nurse to check over what needed to be X rayed. Queued again to get X rayed. Waited to pick up X ray notes. Queued again to get verdict. After two and a half hours told that elbow is just basically bruised and swollen and given useful advice on how to sort it out as soon as possible.

So, a bit of a pain but worth the visit and thanks to all above for making me bother!! The boredom was at least relieved by a chat with a nice cute student with nice legs who fell off a rock last week and hurt her foot. That turned out to be properly broken!

Bikerbaboon wrote:

working just up passed that Incident I have been told that its a body found near the foot over pass.... Looks like the north are doing well to keep numbers down.

Body apparently on the foot bridge so not a suicide.....

http://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/n ... 6344510.jp

So hold on...

you decided not to tell them about the 2 most serious issues?? The recurrent blackouts and whether these were due to the SVTs or possible head injury???

I dont think anyone was ever that bothered about your elbow TBH. Please dont let this pass without some sort of medical input, maybe try your GP.

Oh and I can't remember if you said you drive, but you shouldn't if you do until this is sorted out. debatable whether you should be riding really.

el_presidente

ahem ahem *drinky drinky motion*

rolf_f

Hello Folks

The blackouts aren't recurrent. I used to go twice a year for checkups about the PSVT (the dodgy wiring condition) - basically, under any normal circumstance, the worst that happens is mild dizziness. To convert that to a blackout I'd actively have to run up and down the stairs five times or something. I took angina pills for a while but the episodes are so infrequent that I gave up on them and the consultant was happy with that. In any case, I worked out a way of slowing my heart rate when I need to without the pills (works for hiccups too!). There is the option of a catheta ablation operation which burns the dodgy wiring off but if they screw that up, you end up with a pacemaker. Given my relationship with battery powered objects (60% of the time my mobile phone battery is flat!) having my heart run by one is a scary thought. This has just been a minor irritation to me but I do know how it works and what circumstances trigger it - if things start to change, I'll consider re-thinking on having the op done.

Ultimately, this condition is less of a risk to me and others than the likelihood of me falling asleep at the wheel of a car. It is a common thing as well - apparently about 10% of the population have some kind of heart condition though most are unaware of it.

As for the sore bit on my head - I did the obvious thing I should have done before and looked at it in the mirror. It appears to be a spot! Certainly, if it had been down to impact damage, it couldn't have happened on the bike as when I went over the bars, I came down left side and when outside my house, although that was right side, I landed on the grass then. So, I felt no impact with my head at the time or any symptoms of an imapct afterwards and there is no evidence of impact on my head. So I reckon my head is just as rubbish as it always has been!

Aguila

Rolf F wrote:

Hello Folks

The blackouts aren't recurrent. I used to go twice a year for checkups about the PSVT (the dodgy wiring condition) - basically, under any normal circumstance, the worst that happens is mild dizziness. To convert that to a blackout I'd actively have to run up and down the stairs five times or something. I took angina pills for a while but the episodes are so infrequent that I gave up on them and the consultant was happy with that. In any case, I worked out a way of slowing my heart rate when I need to without the pills (works for hiccups too!). There is the option of a catheta ablation operation which burns the dodgy wiring off but if they screw that up, you end up with a pacemaker. Given my relationship with battery powered objects (60% of the time my mobile phone battery is flat!) having my heart run by one is a scary thought. This has just been a minor irritation to me but I do know how it works and what circumstances trigger it - if things start to change, I'll consider re-thinking on having the op done.

Ultimately, this condition is less of a risk to me and others than the likelihood of me falling asleep at the wheel of a car. It is a common thing as well - apparently about 10% of the population have some kind of heart condition though most are unaware of it.

As for the sore bit on my head - I did the obvious thing I should have done before and looked at it in the mirror. It appears to be a spot! Certainly, if it had been down to impact damage, it couldn't have happened on the bike as when I went over the bars, I came down left side and when outside my house, although that was right side, I landed on the grass then. So, I felt no impact with my head at the time or any symptoms of an imapct afterwards and there is no evidence of impact on my head. So I reckon my head is just as rubbish as it always has been!

Disagree completely with these sections.

The blackouts weren't recurrent but you have just experienced a sequence of them with no warning or preceding symptoms, you do not know the cause. Do you know if it will happen again? No. Do you know you wont be doing something hazardous at the time if they do? No. As they have no preceding symptoms, will you be able to stop doing that dangerous activity before losing conciousness? No.

I'll grant you it's looking like the head injury element is not an issue, but without taking a proper history off you and doing a proper exam it's impossible for me to say.

What I'm sure of is that you should not be driving, reading between the lines it sounds like you are intending to continue driving. I hope that's not the case as I reckon that would be profoundly irresponsible.

rolf_f

Aguila wrote:

The blackouts weren't recurrent but you have just experienced a sequence of them with no warning or preceding symptoms, you do not know the cause. Do you know if it will happen again? No. Do you know you wont be doing something hazardous at the time if they do? No. As they have no preceding symptoms, will you be able to stop doing that dangerous activity before losing conciousness? No.

I'll grant you it's looking like the head injury element is not an issue, but without taking a proper history off you and doing a proper exam it's impossible for me to say.

What I'm sure of is that you should not be driving, reading between the lines it sounds like you are intending to continue driving. I hope that's not the case as I reckon that would be profoundly irresponsible.

Honestly, you really don't know what you are talking about! I know what caused the blackouts - actually only two of them in this case. I do know under what circumstances they will happen again. They do have preceeding symptoms.
Remember - I have had this condition for almost 30 years. It has been diagnosed and I have made good use of my National Insurance contributions in terms of tests and consultants time. Nothing has changed in it. If I go to a Doctor about it now, they will ask me what has changed since the last time I was seen about it - I would be forced to say that nothing has except that the occurence rate has dropped over the last few years. At no point has the condition caused me to be a danger to others. I have confirmed with Doctors that there is no reason why I can't drive.It has been a slight danger to me but, at present, I live on my own and that is more dangerous than living with someone else in many ways.
TBH, it was only luck that I got a diagnosis anyway. Had I not wheedled an extra weeks load on a chest tape they wouldn't have got the diagnosis and they'd have been even less concerned about me.

Aguila

Well in your description you say you dont know what happened until you found yourself on the floor on the 3 occasions. If that happens when you are driving you could quite easily kill someone. You also say that usually you would have to do something extraordinary to black out, so by definition things have changed.

If you dont want to believe me go to your GP and ask if you should drive.